[lol] It's so obvious that humans are carnivores.

[Schizophonia]

23 hours ago, Michael569 said:

 

that's an unfair argument against veganism. You would have to assume that omivores don't use those where in fact probably like 60% of gym goers take some form of protein isolate. Be objective  

Most guys who use whey only use a few ounces a day, and it's mostly orthorexics or bodybuilders who take it post-workout in a shaker thinking it will protect them from post-workout catabolism. .
Everyone insists on the interest of whey in terms of preparation time and the protein/price ratio, that's all.
There are many people who train without whey, including, cureisement, often powerlifters (where I am anyway), it is not absolutely necessary.

The real question I ask you is: where are the vegan athletes and more particularly those who abstain from vegetable proteins and/or especially roids?

Ps: I just saw what i eat in a day by Patrik Baboumian who is quoted in TGC for reccords (which nobody cares about), I laughed a lot, go see.

23 hours ago, Michael569 said:

In fact I would go as far as to say if you put 100 vegan and 100 omnivore athletes next to eachother, omnivores would be loading up on significantly more additional protein than vegans (but I have no data to back this up, just a speculation on my end) 

My performance increased by stopping veganism, as I went from around 150g of protein per day to around 100g.
It's the same thing that happened to youtubers I follow like Vegatable Police or Jon Venus.

Just try two weeks of fitness with lots of meat, eggs and maybe dairy, you'll see.

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Don't expect me to provide a detailed response if you've literally just googled "Why not to be vegan" and just copied and pasted a crappy response like this.

lol i probably have 10x more xp in nutrition than you can imagine

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

I've been vegan for 7 years. I've got blood tests. I'm not deficient in anything. Veganism is not a nutritionally deficient diet, and world health organisations have recognised it as a nutritionally sufficient diet. You can get everything you need from plants.

Because you supplement yourself, justifying a diet by very specific practices (supplementation in B12, in epa/dha by algae or a ton of flax/chia/hemp, vitamin a by a ton of carrot/sweet potato) is dishonest .

Also how do you know your markers are good?
While researching veganism on youtube I came across a youtuber (Hench Herbivore) who claimed to have good testosterone levels thanks to veganism, the guy had 400 to 500ng/dl, that's a bad score that brings him closer to a person with andropause or a preteen.

I also saw the complete blood test of Jon Venus' brother who is a doctor, his report was not terrible and lacked a certain number of nutrients by his own admission.
It was worth making sandwitches of whole wheat and germs straight out of hell lmao.

I have plenty of examples like that.

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Why do you need to justify your food choices based on what you can theoretically do without - Because eating animal products and contributing the exploitation of animals without a very good reason is immoral

So what ? To whom do you need to justify yourself? who will punish you? What is morality? Is this a code of conduct written somewhere in the sky?
Besides, do you pay attention to which company you buy your electronic products and even your fruits and vegetables or human exploitation is not a problem for you?

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

and also bad for the environment. 

No, livestock production "only" produces 14.5% of greenhouse gas emissions, cattle are possibly more problematic because of methane. Apart from that the animals do not cause water depletion and help to re-fertilize the soil through excrement and urine.

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

The fact that you have to ask why a Vegan would typically go vegan makes me think you've not really researched this subject, if that wasn't already obvious by your cut and paste crap above about what you supposedly cannot get as a vegan.

Dude, all the Vegan Doctors and YouTubers and their so-called reasons, I know them all. 

18 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

Why do you have this slave mentality? Wtf are you talking about? Also I don't get any cravings.

"you don't need x so you shouldn't consume x" is a slave mentality yes.

This reflection has nothing to do with your cravings.

16 hours ago, Jannes said:

There is definitely much truth to that. But it is still possible that the adoption for diet A accidentally allowed diet B as well. Besides that humans survived with many different eating habits around the globe, some meat focused and some with very little meat. And if there is one thing that accelerated our evolution and brain growth the most it's the ability to heat things up. This paleo raw eating philosophy is completely BS. Our natural diet is a cooking diet. 

lol

https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction

https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/sciadv.abf9776

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51068816

16 hours ago, Jannes said:

Anything with lots of calories tastes good pretty much universally.

No, starches without condiments, even cooked, don't taste good, unripe fruits don't taste good, oil and refined sugar don't taste too good, rotten foods don't taste good, etc. etc.

16 hours ago, Jannes said:

You can find deer enjoying stake. Do you think that is natural? Or you can find Tigers munching on watermelon. Do you think that is natural?

Yes, the vast majority of animals are potentially omnivorous, and are just more suited to one type of food and will prefer it.
The more you are adapted to a food the more you will like it.

The point is, you don't like starches, it's a survival solution, and you're going to try to camouflage their taste with subterfuge.
You want nice, juicy meat, and some fruit/dairy if you can digest it, possibly tubers/white flour starches if you're in fruit shortage and/or starving and your mitochondria are adapted to high carbohydrate diet for some time.

16 hours ago, Jannes said:

Also do you think candy and fried food is healthy because it tastes good?

They are not natural products and cheat on your palate, and in fact even if they are attractive for attavic reasons they are quickly sickening and even disgusting.

16 hours ago, Jannes said:

I think it's our oversupply of food that makes us delusional to the point where we confuse somewhat boring natural taste with toxicity. In Stone Age you would probably be very happy to munch on some roots and seeds.

Stone Age men weren't some kind of violent, hungry monkeys who ate anything while shouting "ouga ouga ouga"
I don't know if you understand what you're saying, but if the first men had to settle for "seeds and roots", they would be dead and you wouldn't be here.

And there is nothing complicated to know what is natural or not, you can imagine that bean packets do not grow in trees and that you cannot fish knackis, it is elementary logic.

@M A J I

What you say sounds like a psychotic delirium without any basis or proof, I think you also mentioned the yugas which is Hindu bullshit.

Frugivorous diets do not work and have made thousands of people thin, without sexual energy, made them lose teeth...

Animal products and dense/rich in fats are associated with self-expression, fat peasants who eat too much and laugh a lot while drinking too much wine are very fond of these "yang" foods, as well as children, stressed/damaged people by life who need to be comforted etc.

But it is on your self-expression and your excesses that you can be attacked and conflicted.
People who have been humiliated at times when they were helpless become neurotic and tend to turn to foods that are at best fresh, at worst boring (yin foods if you will) and generally turn to some kind of asceticism. because they become unassailable.

[M A J I]

@Schizophonia It does not matter to me what you think nor makes any difference, your mind is (fixated) and convinced that way... and there's nothing I can do about that, only time will tell if the seeds will sprout or not. I will continue to share the truth regardless but won't argue endlessly and pointlessly.

Out of many fruitarians I know, only a few uneducated and unprepared ones experience health issues, most thrive and some of the most "alive" people I know and not zombified like you would see with the average englishman/american ect...

Plant fats like avocado, durian, coconut, olives ect.. are superior to animal-fats in many ways when we are talking about the homosapian. Even Nikola Tesla stated plant foods are superior, one of the highest geniuses known to mankind.

Not for everyone I agree as everyone is at different levels of conscious experiencing but you cannot really argue with the fact that humans are frugivore by natural design. If you cannot see it, how clear and evident it is, then I cannot help you further. The entire anatomy, biology, DNA says otherwise.. but we can agree to disagree because I can already see your energy.

Hell even Jeff juices recently uploaded a video where he also talks about how he gained weight and muscle on fruit-based diet and lifestyle long term juicing and fasting https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQbhj8JxW4/

I believe once you do long term juicing and fasting and heal properly, you will be able to realize what a far more efficient human being operating on a higher energy bandwidth feels like, and there is a simple reason why that occurs. Its human nature.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by M A J I

[The0Self]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:41 AM, Michael569 said:

Algae are only a source of DHA, fish are a source of both EPA and DHA.

Most of the numbers I've seen show that they do have EPA, but it is always at a lower amount than DHA. And there's some evidence to suggest that EPA intake should exceed DHA. So in a way you're correct but it seems like you meant they have no EPA. But it's not like it's conclusive that EPA must exceed DHA for optimal health... I'm pretty sure algae has at least some EPA, and it's not miniscule like 1% of DHA content either, more like 20-50% (at most half the amount) of the DHA content's value, is the EPA content.

[StarStruck]

Me after reading this topic. 

[hyruga]

How are you going to get past constipation without fruits and vegetables?

[thepixelmonk]

lmao anatomy has no value, man the mental gymnastics is strong in this one.

[M A J I]

Can you eat meat raw and bloody without cooking it and adding all different salts (minerals) and herbs/spices (plants) that you actually crave... not the meat itself? If you craved the meat you wouldn't need to add 'salts' and 'additives' and plants to make it flavorful and palatable. You would simply hunt, kill, eat and drink fresh blood like a feline does and wont get an upset stomach, but you are clearly not a feline or canine, nor a bear... maybe a delusional or psychopath... if you enjoy it raw...

Why do you think garlic, clove and onion have always been intuitively added to meat while cooking? Cause especially garlic and clove target and kill parasites. Meat is full of parasites, what controls the gut controls the mind. Those are not hunger pains or cramps you are experiencing.

Fruit is the natural food because you don't need to flavor it, you don't need to cook it or alter it in anyway, you don't need to add additives like salt or sugar to make it palatable to the human taste.. Its right in front of our very eyes, but to a mind that is blind.. I guess its invisible.

Even vegetable is not the same, we are not cows, we don't have hooves, if we need to add 'salts' and 'flavors' we are missing the point entirely.

A baby will never intuitively eat the rabbit and play with the apple, and 9/10 times it will pick the fruit over the vegetable.

Why are baby foods 90% fruit-based? because its the gentlest on the human body. Yet people think fruit is merely a snack.

Why is there a fruit bowl on almost every kitchen bench in almost every house? These things are some big wake-up calls most do not see. Others are just in utter denial of truth and they cannot accept the fact that everything they've been taught is a lie, they've invested so much on a false-life, and the rest are just 'drug addicts' too deep to even realize it themselves.

Then God said, “I give you every (seed-bearing plant) on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has (fruit) with (seed) in it. They will be yours for (food). Genesis 1:29

I could go all day but you get my drift... If you cannot "see" past what i have just shared then I cannot help you.

Edited April 23, 2023 by M A J I

[Jannes]

On 21.4.2023 at 2:08 PM, Schizophonia said:

lol

https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction

https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/sciadv.abf9776

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51068816

I just watched a very well researched video on the question "Was meat responsible for brain growth?"

The answer that its just meat is way to simplistic. Meat could be part of the reason but probably not the main reason:

-Eating much meat doesn't cause brain growth per se because if that were the case all carnivores would be smart as fuck which they aren't. It needed a survival benefit for brain growth.

-One of the main reason might be that we learned how to cook food. Cooking food means our digestive track could get smaller from the easier digestible and more energetic type of food and therefore didn't take up as much energy which allowed for the growth of the brain. Despite us being far more intelligent than most animals, we need around the same calories as an equally heavy mammal.

-Another good is reason is that humans developed a body with less muscle and more fat compared to other mammals which is energy saving and would allow for brain growth.

-Cooking allowed two new food sources in roots and sweet grasses (predecessor of grain). The extra carbs helped us to think cause our brain runs on carbs if it isn't in ketosis and also gave us more calories which could allow for adaptations.

-Our denture is neither the one of a meat eater, nor of a plant eater. It's a unique one that fits the purpose of eating easily digestible (cooked food).
 

But now matter what the reason was back then how does this even matter for today? The question "Was meat responsible for brain growth?" can't be translated into todays question "Does meat grow my brain?". There are enough plant based fat and protein sources today to cover brain health.

[6] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19843...
[7] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24564...
[8] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17439...
[9] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26123...
[10] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17827...
[11] https://www.pnas.org/content/109/45/1...
[12] https://www.jstor.org/stable/2744104
[13] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25293...
[14] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26591...
[15] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
[16] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19049...
[17] https://bit.ly/3BFMhF4
[18] https://bit.ly/3AwY4o0

Quote

No, starches without condiments, even cooked, don't taste good, unripe fruits don't taste good, oil and refined sugar don't taste too good, rotten foods don't taste good, etc. etc.

These are not objective facts that's just your preference. 

I like cooked starches actually. The whole grain has a healthy natural taste to it. 

I still like many unripe fruits like bananas or apples.

Quote

Yes, the vast majority of animals are potentially omnivorous, and are just more suited to one type of food and will prefer it.
The more you are adapted to a food the more you will like it.

Not necessarily. A deer is very badly adapted to eat steak. But because the stake is SO MUCH more nutritionally dense than grass it will still outrank its natural food sources. Even if only 10% of the steak can get digested, that's still way more than all the grass. 

But an animal that is adapted to eating watermelon for example compared to an animal which is adapted to eating meat. In this case these animals probably wouldn't switch their food sources because they already have very nutritionally dense food sources so the benefit to change to another less adapted diet for the benefit of getting more valuable food doesn't stand. 

Quote

The point is, you don't like starches, it's a survival solution, and you're going to try to camouflage their taste with subterfuge.
You want nice, juicy meat, and some fruit/dairy if you can digest it, possibly tubers/white flour starches if you're in fruit shortage and/or starving and your mitochondria are adapted to high carbohydrate diet for some time.

They are not natural products and cheat on your palate, and in fact even if they are attractive for attavic reasons they are quickly sickening and even disgusting.

Do you season your meat? Most people put a bunch of seasonings on their meat to make it taste more like vegetables. If that's not cheating idk what is. 

Quote

Stone Age men weren't some kind of violent, hungry monkeys who ate anything while shouting "ouga ouga ouga"
I don't know if you understand what you're saying, but if the first men had to settle for "seeds and roots", they would be dead and you wouldn't be here.

And there is nothing complicated to know what is natural or not, you can imagine that bean packets do not grow in trees and that you cannot fish knackis, it is elementary logic.

"Natural" doesn't necessarily mean healthy as I argumented before. Although I do believe that cooking various plants including grains is natural. 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jannes

[Schizophonia]

On 23/04/2023 at 5:05 AM, M A J I said:

Can you eat meat raw and bloody without cooking it and adding all different salts (minerals) and herbs/spices (plants) that you actually crave... not the meat itself? If you craved the meat you wouldn't need to add 'salts' and 'additives' and plants to make it flavorful and palatable.

I don't need to put seasoning on my meat, eggs or dairy.
In fact, I don't know exactly why (balance potassium sodium?), but the more my diet is rich in animal products, the less I want to add salt.
Currently I have returned to a more classic diet for several reasons and I again wanted to put salt on my eggs/meat.

Quote

You would simply hunt, kill, eat and drink fresh blood like a feline does and wont get an upset stomach, but you are clearly not a feline or canine, nor a bear

I don't know what this strange argument is, nor am I a deer, koala or gorilla.

Quote

... maybe a delusional or psychopath... if you enjoy it raw...

You are just Anglo-Saxon lol, everyone on the planet eats raw/undercooked meat.

Quote

Why do you think garlic, clove and onion have always been intuitively added to meat while cooking? Cause especially garlic and clove target and kill parasites. Meat is full of parasites, what controls the gut controls the mind. Those are not hunger pains or cramps you are experiencing.

1)Only pork is reputed to give parasites, and it is a very particular animal condemned in many religions.
Otherwise the meat is not supposed to contain dangerous parasites, otherwise the animal would be seriously ill anyway.
You also don't make sense, like in some third world countries, to leave the meat literally rotting outside.

2)No, people put on garlic and onions because food is an art form and we crave new flavors.
Besides, you won't get any real antiseptic quality with onion or even raw garlic.
Alcohol is technically a poison and that doesn't prevent alcoholic beverages from being tasty.

Quote

Fruit is the natural food because you don't need to flavor it, you don't need to cook it or alter it in anyway, you don't need to add additives like salt or sugar to make it palatable to the human taste.. Its right in front of our very eyes, but to a mind that is blind.. I guess its invisible.

Neither are fruit and sugar pleasant to some extent, even when your mitochondria are more carb-metabolizing.

Like "starchivores" make "bean, oatmeal, and tomato sauce steaks" because eating even a kilo of cooked legumes a day is too boring, frugivores make a ton of smoothies and "nicecream" with high-calorie exotic fruits (bananas, dates, etc.) because eating a lot of fruit is boring.

Quote

Even vegetable is not the same, we are not cows, we don't have hooves, if we need to add 'salts' and 'flavors' we are missing the point entirely.

1) You can add salt as a "bad habit" as seasonings can throw off cravings eventually.
Everyone adds salt to anything, starting with plants. My point is that you need herbal seasonings to make up for the boredom of their texture and bulk.
Animal meat and fat, in addition to being tasty, are small in size and easy to eat.

Quote

A baby will never intuitively eat the rabbit and play with the apple, and 9/10 times it will pick the fruit over the vegetable.

interesting argument

1) Children are not going to play with the rabbit as it will run away/be hostile unless it is a domesticated breed (selected)

2) Human children cannot survive on their own and they are still extremely sensitive with high brain plasicity.
The ability to fight and hunt usually comes later, with brain maturation, exposure to androgens etc.
Many men just don't feel able to hunt anymore, they're just weakened by a life of comfort and underexposure to androgens, it's not just a matter of not being able to kill an animal anymore, it's also no longer be able

3) This is a pretty wacky vegan hippie idea, kids aren't that nice and empathetic, kids can actually be particularly sadistic.
A girl in my family literally had fun killing cats by smashing them against the wall, she didn't become psycho or mean, the kids just have fun exploring boundaries, they're not that dual.

Quote

Why are baby foods 90% fruit-based? because its the gentlest on the human body. Yet people think fruit is merely a snack.

No, we sometimes give fruit purees to children because it's cheap and easy to digest, but their post-weaning nutrition is varied, in fact when I was a baby, I was given cereal boils and pieces of meat.
As for carnivorism, I haven't seen people giving carnivorous food to their child so I won't comment. (and that's another topic)

Quote

Why is there a fruit bowl on almost every kitchen bench in almost every house?

Because it looks pretty and inflates the ego by making us feel like respectable people who eat well etc etc.
It's also good, I'm not against fruit, I don't know if you've read it but by "carnivor" I mostly mean "meat-based".

Quote

These things are some big wake-up calls most do not see. Others are just in utter denial of truth and they cannot accept the fact that everything they've been taught is a lie, they've invested so much on a false-life, and the rest are just 'drug addicts' too deep to even realize it themselves.

begging the question begging the question begging the question

Quote

Then God said, “I give you every (seed-bearing plant) on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has (fruit) with (seed) in it. They will be yours for (food). Genesis 1:29

lol

I'm not sure that basing one's diet on the writings of apostles of a Palestinian sect is scientific or simply rational.

Quote

I could go all day but you get my drift... If you cannot "see" past what i have just shared then I cannot help you.

On 19/04/2023 at 9:25 PM, Lila9 said:

Pandas, like any bear, are omnivores, means they can consume either only plants or only meat their entire life and they will be healthy.

Idk, maybe.

What I do know though is that unless you supplement yourself with certain nutrients, being vegan is going to drive you relatively insane within a decade.

 

On 18/04/2023 at 6:53 PM, zurew said:

@Schizophonia So TLDR: you have nothing tangible, other than a handful of testimonials.

Adversarial reversal, do YOU have tangible proof?
The primal/paleo diet (carnivore was a provocative misnomer, call such a diet what you will) is amazing to me and many others.
The more I eat like this, the better my cognition, the better my poo, the stronger I am in the gym etc etc.
And obviously the taste is much better than a vegan diet, while being really satisfying in terms of appetite.

Troll/provocation aside, I've shared and suggested checking out the story of other people on even stricter diets than me who don't have health issues including artherosclerosis (despite high LDL), while recalling that, here again, carnivore is a vague and provocative term to agree on a diet based on animal products.

And you ? What do you have apart from generally epidemiological studies.
For the 10th time, regardless of the quality of the studies and the fact that we can be interested in them, they are impersonal and manipulable.
You absolutely want a study?
giveaway: https://www.dovepress.com/total-meat-intake-is-associated-with-life-expectancy-a-cross-sectional-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-IJGM

On 23/04/2023 at 11:30 AM, Jannes said:

I just watched a very well researched video on the question "Was meat responsible for brain growth?"

The answer that its just meat is way to simplistic. Meat could be part of the reason but probably not the main reason:

-Eating much meat doesn't cause brain growth per se because if that were the case all carnivores would be smart as fuck which they aren't. It needed a survival benefit for brain growth.

-One of the main reason might be that we learned how to cook food. Cooking food means our digestive track could get smaller from the easier digestible and more energetic type of food and therefore didn't take up as much energy which allowed for the growth of the brain. Despite us being far more intelligent than most animals, we need around the same calories as an equally heavy mammal.

-Another good is reason is that humans developed a body with less muscle and more fat compared to other mammals which is energy saving and would allow for brain growth.

-Cooking allowed two new food sources in roots and sweet grasses (predecessor of grain). The extra carbs helped us to think cause our brain runs on carbs if it isn't in ketosis and also gave us more calories which could allow for adaptations.

-Our denture is neither the one of a meat eater, nor of a plant eater. It's a unique one that fits the purpose of eating easily digestible (cooked food).
 

But now matter what the reason was back then how does this even matter for today? The question "Was meat responsible for brain growth?" can't be translated into todays question "Does meat grow my brain?". There are enough plant based fat and protein sources today to cover brain health.

[6] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19843...
[7] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24564...
[8] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17439...
[9] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26123...
[10] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17827...
[11] https://www.pnas.org/content/109/45/1...
[12] https://www.jstor.org/stable/2744104
[13] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25293...
[14] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26591...
[15] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
[16] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19049...
[17] https://bit.ly/3BFMhF4
[18] https://bit.ly/3AwY4o0

These are not objective facts that's just your preference. 

I don't know if I misunderstood your message or if you can't understand the principle of Darwinism.
Nothing causes the growth of the brain, it is a genetic evolution produced by evolutionary pressure.
The fact is that the human brain has the particularity of requiring an enormous amount (compared to other animals) of omega 3 and that the evolution of the brain is consistent with the migration of hominids, from the tropical forests to the high African plains and the development fishing and hunting.

Eating as much carbohydrate as you want will not magically eliminate your deficiencies in other nutrients, nor change the archaeological evidence.
Besides, I live in France close to the "Lascaux caves", I have often visited them, the hunting engravings I have seen them yes, the oat cooking engravings not too much ah ah.
I've also seen a lot of shows about the practices of the ancient peasants in my country, McDougall likes to say that Europeans ate vegetables and beans, but he forgets to mention that the vegetables were literally, most of the time, preserved in PORK FAT and cooked with this same fat.
In short, the pro "starchivores" are rewriting history.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0260106012437550

Quote

I like cooked starches actually. The whole grain has a healthy natural taste to it. 

Either you decorate in an exaggerated way your "complete cereals", with oil, condiments, transform them into pasta etc.
Or you eat 1000 calories a day.
Either you are delusional, like a homeless man thinks he is rich when he manages to afford a macdonal, eat a good greasy entrecote, without condiment or possibly a little salt if you are too used to it, and dare to say it without being a hypocrite massive that your bulgur is more appealing.
Dare  

Quote

I still like many unripe fruits like bananas or apples.

Ditto

Quote

Not necessarily. A deer is very badly adapted to eat steak. But because the stake is SO MUCH more nutritionally dense than grass it will still outrank its natural food sources. Even if only 10% of the steak can get digested, that's still way more than all the grass. 

But an animal that is adapted to eating watermelon for example compared to an animal which is adapted to eating meat. In this case these animals probably wouldn't switch their food sources because they already have very nutritionally dense food sources so the benefit to change to another less adapted diet for the benefit of getting more valuable food doesn't stand. 

It has nothing to do with nutrient density, it's a matter of enzymes.

 

Quote

Do you season your meat? Most people put a bunch of seasonings on their meat to make it taste more like vegetables. If that's not cheating idk what is. 

Already answered.
1) "Like a plant" does not mean anything, the vast majority of plants are filthy, come to understand that "spices" are precisely a handful of plants selected from millions for their ability to give potentially pleasant flavors.

2) Meat already tastes good, people season it to taste better because curiosity is in our nature, it's not about animal vs plant products, this rhetoric is very dishonest.
Alcohol is bad for humans and wine is one of the finest and most enjoyable foodstuffs on this planet, I know some guys who put vodka in their pineapple juice to improve the taste, is that does that mean they actually secretly want alcohol?

"This person puts a pinch of paprika on his steak, it's proof that he wants beans and spinach"

lmao

Quote

"Natural" doesn't necessarily mean healthy as I argumented before.

I agree

Quote

Although I do believe that cooking various plants including grains is natural. 

 

Everything is "natural", just because humans are so intelligent that they have actions that are particularly contrasting with those of the rest of the animal world does not make it "unnatural", we just do stuff humans.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

@Schizophonia It does not matter to me what you think nor makes any difference, your mind is (fixated) and convinced that way... and there's nothing I can do about that, only time will tell if the seeds will sprout or not. I will continue to share the truth regardless but won't argue endlessly and pointlessly.

agree

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

Out of many fruitarians I know, only a few uneducated and unprepared ones experience health issues, most thrive and some of the most "alive" people I know and not zombified like you would see with the average englishman/american ect...

I'm not American or English, where I am people are healthy and far from "fruit-eaters".

Average overweight Westerner is neither vegan, nor frugivorous, nor carnivorous, nor paleo, nor any diet. He just stuffs himself with processed and high-calorie products of any kind.

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

Plant fats like avocado, durian, coconut, olives ect.. are superior to animal-fats in many ways when we are talking about the homosapian.

Names of fats are fats, there are highly unsaturated (cold water fish) and highly saturated (beef tallow, dairy products) animal products, there are highly unsaturated plant products (avocado, nuts...) and very saturated (coconut, palm fruit).
That's like saying "fruit sugar is different from unrefined cane sugar."

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

Even Nikola Tesla stated plant foods are superior, one of the highest geniuses known to mankind.

Nicolas Tesla is an excellent engineer with an extraordinary capacity for visualization.
He is not a nutritionist or someone who has taken a keen interest in nutrition. And even if he is very intelligent he is a human and he regularly makes affirmative statements based on unvalidated knowledge, or simply debatable.

In other words, just because a so-called genius says something doesn't mean it's true.
Myself I sometimes fail argumentatively in front of people who, without pretense, have a particularly lower iq.

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

Not for everyone I agree as everyone is at different levels of conscious experiencing but you cannot really argue

yes, the proof, I'm doing it 

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

with the fact that humans are frugivore by natural design. If you cannot see it, how clear and evident it is, then I cannot help you further. The entire anatomy, biology, DNA says otherwise..

hummmm... no

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

but we can agree to disagree because I can already see your energy.

yes 

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

Hell even Jeff juices recently uploaded a video where he also talks about how he gained weight and muscle on fruit-based diet and lifestyle long term juicing and fasting https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQbhj8JxW4/

This guy looks like a stick insect, without being mean

On 21/04/2023 at 2:26 PM, M A J I said:

I believe once you do long term juicing and fasting and heal properly, you will be able to realize what a far more efficient human being operating on a higher energy bandwidth feels like, and there is a simple reason why that occurs. Its human nature.

 

 

It's up to you to give me the example of a frugivore "full of energy".
I watched a video of the frugivore arguing with a carnivore in another video someone posted on this thread, he looked almost lethargic.

There is obviously more than diet

On 22/04/2023 at 4:45 PM, hyruga said:

How are you going to get past constipation without fruits and vegetables?

Very fibrous plants constipate me. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole of these issues so I'll refrain from giving an opinion for now.

 

On 22/04/2023 at 8:19 PM, thepixelmonk said:

lmao anatomy has no value, man the mental gymnastics is strong in this one.

There is no "mental gymnastics", I explained why and gave an example, I could give others.
There are also other evolutionary particularities in humans which point to a potential evolution for hunting and the consumption of animal products, I would be happy if you could explain to me without "mental gymnastics" why

 

On 21/04/2023 at 5:25 PM, Michael569 said:

 

No, Vegetable Police is a poser who likes to create drama. I have been following his journey for around 4 years before I realised that for him it is always about "what's the new crazy thing I can be doing"

I was even in his Patreon Group at one point. In fact he will tell you that neither carnivore nor vegan nor paleo nor keto nor anything else worked for him. He'll always bring up how everything flares up his IBD and then do some lunacy rather than actually stick to one protocol long enough. His content is all about jibberish and monkey business. I've stopped taking him seriously a long time ago. He is a funny guy tho and gave me many laughs over the year but his health content is all over the place. The camera channel is pretty hilarious I have to admit and he is also a really talented music producer - I bought his album couple years ago and it was really cool. 

As per John Venus, I don't believe he ever gave fuck about animals. He is a poser and always has been. I wouldn't be surprised if he was, all that time, snacking on meat behind the scenes. He and his wife are just your typical Youtube fitness pseudo-fitness gurus selling cookie cutter overpriced plans. When I spoke to him on vegfest in London, I didn't buy the things he was saying - his body language did not confirm the words he was speaking. But he is a good marketers and a good business man, that's for sure. And he looks like a Greek god with a face that melts your heart which does help  

Nimai Delgado might be a better example although I'm not sure to what degree he is roid free, he probably is. 

If you want to see a healthy example, the best one I can think of is Derek Simnet and Krystal Kennings from Simnet Nutrition. I spoke to both of them on VegFest and they are the most charming couple out there. I am sure Richard Burgees from Vegan Gains behind all that drama and depression is a decent guy who just needs to learn to let go and take a step back. 

But yah overall the vegan influencer scene is riddled with posers, fake natties and a lot of pseudoscience but there are good examples of really caring people who do good things. 

 

You are sectarian.
You seek to demonize people who struggle with their health (and indeed can be versatile/do anything like VP) by turning them into manipulators, dishonest people etc.
On the other hand when a person from your "camp" (Richard), who (this is a non-exhaustive list, this is what I remember :):

- Explained in video hating children, and wanting to explode the skulls of crying children around him "until there is a boil of blood on the sidewalk."

-Explained in a video that he asked for a street fight with a father because his children were making too much noise.

- Threatened with death a person with whom he was playing an online video game

- Shamelessly insult those they comment on and disagree with, including VP for that matter.

-Laughed at the death of a youtuber + insulted his children.

-Literally admitted to being sadistic and sociopathic.

-Mythomane (lied saying that he never said he didn't like children, and that he was "just afraid of them", this example is obvious but he literally lies all the time during his lives to appear confident and intellectually informed).

There on the other hand "oh it's just depression, basically it must be a downhill type "

Can you see your half measure? Michael.

[Basman]

Humans are clearly omnivores. There are no primates or past human species that where obligate carnivores or herbivores. It is a strength of our species. It means that there is more for us to eat and our physiology doesn't have to overly specialize, locking us out of being a generalist species.

As to what is preferable, it depends on you. Some people prefer certain diets because of how it makes them feel, but I'd be sure to take dietary trends on the internet with a grain of salt. Social media rewards extremism and outrage, making certain attitudes more visible. You have to ask yourself if a proposed diet is being propogated because it is generally true or because how the influencer manages to sway the algorithm to their favor.

[Jannes]

6 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I don't know if I misunderstood your message or if you can't understand the principle of Darwinism.
Nothing causes the growth of the brain, it is a genetic evolution produced by evolutionary pressure.
The fact is that the human brain has the particularity of requiring an enormous amount (compared to other animals) of omega 3 and that the evolution of the brain is consistent with the migration of hominids, from the tropical forests to the high African plains and the development fishing and hunting.

Eating as much carbohydrate as you want will not magically eliminate your deficiencies in other nutrients, nor change the archaeological evidence.
Besides, I live in France close to the "Lascaux caves", I have often visited them, the hunting engravings I have seen them yes, the oat cooking engravings not too much ah ah.
I've also seen a lot of shows about the practices of the ancient peasants in my country, McDougall likes to say that Europeans ate vegetables and beans, but he forgets to mention that the vegetables were literally, most of the time, preserved in PORK FAT and cooked with this same fat.
In short, the pro "starchivores" are rewriting history.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0260106012437550

Are you argumenting for a carnivores diet/ highly meat based diet or for a diet that includes some meat?

What deficiencies?

Well as I argumented there are many reasons for why our brain developed independent from the fact that we consumed meat.

Also we could have just grown more intelligent and therefore gotten able to kill more animals tactically and as a result thrived and reproduced a lot. You say that the chicken came before the egg but you don't actually know. 

But all of this doesn't even really matter because we have modern nutrition now which might be better than any paleo diet. 

Quote

Either you decorate in an exaggerated way your "complete cereals", with oil, condiments, transform them into pasta etc.
Or you eat 1000 calories a day.
Either you are delusional, like a homeless man thinks he is rich when he manages to afford a macdonal, eat a good greasy entrecote, without condiment or possibly a little salt if you are too used to it, and dare to say it without being a hypocrite massive that your bulgur is more appealing.
Dare  

It's good as a side dish instead of rice for example. 

"complete cereals" lol. Sounds carbphobic. 

Bulgur is made out of wheat flour so its not really a natural product

I am not arguing that cooked grains are more appealing than meat, (although idk if I would like it because I am not used to meat anymore). Anyway let's take a pig as an example. A pig is a clear omnivore we can agree on that right? If you give that pig the option between veggies and meat I think it's safe to say that it would pick the meat. Not because it's healthier or more natural for the pig but just because the meat is loaded with calories and calories are jummi.

Quote

Ditto

It has nothing to do with nutrient density, it's a matter of enzymes.

Well if a deer has badly adapted enzymes for meat but still manages to break up 10% of the meat that's still better then the grass where it can digest 90% from or whatever.

Quote

Already answered.
1) "Like a plant" does not mean anything, the vast majority of plants are filthy, come to understand that "spices" are precisely a handful of plants selected from millions for their ability to give potentially pleasant flavors.

2) Meat already tastes good, people season it to taste better because curiosity is in our nature, it's not about animal vs plant products, this rhetoric is very dishonest.

 Are you sure people like meat without seasonings? I was never a big meat eater so I can't really tell but I always find it funny how bodybuilder grow tired of eating their unseasoned chicken breast so much ?

I think you have to compare seasoned plants with seasoned meat or unseasoned meat with unseasoned plants. And even then, as in my marked comment, meat has an advantage because it is high in calories which doesn't mean it's healthy for ya. High calorie foods just taste good for survival reasons but that doesn't count anymore. 

 

 

[M A J I]

All I see here is major denial of truth and a severe lack of education. I no longer have to partake in this, all the relevant facts have been stated.

Take it or leave it, enjoy your empty rambles.

[Schizophonia]

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

Are you argumenting for a carnivores diet/ highly meat based diet or for a diet that includes some meat?

A meat-based diet.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

What deficiencies?

Mostly B12, EPA/DHA, Vitamine A.

But also Choline, Zinc, L-Carnitine, Taurine and simply a good amount of protein.
You can say that the nutrients just above are present in sufficient quantities in a vegan diet, or that they are not "essential nutrients" but:

1) It's hypocritical because vegans are all (or almost) pro-high carbs, exogenous carbohydrates are also not "essential" in absolute terms.

2) Just because you're not deficient in something doesn't mean low intake isn't a problem.
A low intake of the above nutrients will decrease your mental and physical performance.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

Well as I argumented there are many reasons for why our brain developed independent from the fact that we consumed meat.

No, it's literally the centerpiece.
No omega 3 EPA/DHA, no human brain development
Moreover, animal products are the most calorically dense in nature, there were no particularly caloric plants in Paleolithic Africa apart from certain fruits and tubers.

I've also posted several links that show that the demographic expansion of homo sapiens and his hominid ancestors significantly influenced the fauna of southern africa, as well as links showing that civilizations like the valley civilization industry was probably meat-based.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

Also we could have just grown more intelligent and therefore gotten able to kill more animals tactically and as a result thrived and reproduced a lot. You say that the chicken came before the egg but you don't actually know. 

Ditto

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

But all of this doesn't even really matter because we have modern nutrition now which might be better than any paleo diet. 

If science (if that means anything) "proves" that a diet is healthier and it's irrefutable, then it's more likely that it's just our view of the paleo diet that's wrong.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

It's good as a side dish instead of rice for example. 

Luckily ha ha 

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

"complete cereals" lol. Sounds carbphobic. 

I'm not against carbohydrates, fruits and natural sources of monosaccharides are good.
In fact I eat a lot of carbohydrates for the calories, every morning I eat porridge, I just worry about preparing it well (soaking, cooking) and mixing it with butter so that it is pleasant for the intestines, Oats are inexpensive and quite nutritious. 

I am still aware that this is not natural in itself, given the preparation it requires, and that oats without butter/honey/fruits/spices are tasteless and even unpleasant.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

Bulgur is made out of wheat flour so its not really a natural product

agree

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

I am not arguing that cooked grains are more appealing than meat, (although idk if I would like it because I am not used to meat anymore). Anyway let's take a pig as an example. A pig is a clear omnivore we can agree on that right? If you give that pig the option between veggies and meat I think it's safe to say that it would pick the meat. Not because it's healthier or more natural for the pig but just because the meat is loaded with calories and calories are jummi.

 

Herbivores are very fond of eating food that is not nutritionally dense.
Also the plants are not very dense for us because we cannot derive energy from the fibers (which are fructose polymers), but for a ruminant for example it is in fact dense food.

The real question is, will the pig choose between meat and cooked grains?
And even the answer will be tendentious because men are not pigs.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

 

Well if a deer has badly adapted enzymes for meat but still manages to break up 10% of the meat that's still better then the grass where it can digest 90% from or whatever.

I'm not sure I understood

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

 Are you sure people like meat without seasonings? I was never a big meat eater so I can't really tell but I always find

Yes, most people where I am eat almost raw meat, with just a little salt (or not).

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

it funny how bodybuilder grow tired of eating their unseasoned chicken breast so much ?

The bodybuilder diet is a nightmare, even the best food in the world will be disgusting if you have to eat it in industrial quantities.

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

I think you have to compare seasoned plants with seasoned meat or unseasoned meat with unseasoned plants. And even then, as in my marked comment, meat has an advantage because it is high in calories which doesn't mean it's healthy for ya. High calorie foods just taste good for survival reasons but that doesn't count anymore. 

 

 

agree, but it's more complicated than plants vs meat.
A mango or certain vegetables are very good, kale is not pleasant.
Muscle meat, eggs and milk are very good, some parts of the animal can be unpleasant (kidneys, liver...)

 

12 hours ago, M A J I said:

All I see here is major denial of truth and a severe lack of education. I no longer have to partake in this, all the relevant facts have been stated.

Take it or leave it, enjoy your empty rambles.

Lol, i find you very pretentious for someone who bases his diet on biblical writings and the opinion of some engineer.

And from the youtube videos of course, I recognized Neil Barnard's "children playing with the rabbit" argument ah ah.
Except that just watching videos from nutritionfact.org and neil barnard isn't enough to be "scientifically informed" or simply show yourself to be an exceptionally rational person.

[Schizophonia]

15 hours ago, Basman said:

Humans are clearly omnivores. There are no primates or past human species that where obligate carnivores or herbivores. It is a strength of our species. It means that there is more for us to eat and our physiology doesn't have to overly specialize, locking us out of being a generalist species.

As to what is preferable, it depends on you. Some people prefer certain diets because of how it makes them feel, but I'd be sure to take dietary trends on the internet with a grain of salt. Social media rewards extremism and outrage, making certain attitudes more visible. You have to ask yourself if a proposed diet is being propogated because it is generally true or because how the influencer manages to sway the algorithm to their favor.

Spot on

I play so I'm a bit extreme about the fact that we are "carnivorous", obviously we ate everything we could find for more calories including plants. You can be vegan and be healthy, I just tease them by childishly showing why I'm skeptical.

No need to have headaches 

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

A meat-based diet.

Why though. You don't need all your calories coming from animal products in order to get enough protein and healthy fats for your brain and muscles. (Or any ) And evolutionary speaking all of this brain growth could have happened with a part fish diet. I don't think there is even that much Omega3 in meat but I could be wrong about that.

Quote

Mostly B12, EPA/DHA, Vitamine A.

Can be supplemented. 

Carnivores miss ALA from Omega 3.

Vitamin A is in lots of fruits and veggies 

We could have gotten B12 easily from the dirt on plants and some insect on leaves for example vegan (well kinda vegan) 

That we only gotten EPA/DHA naturally through animal products is true though. 

But it's possible to get it with algae oil. And as a vegetarian with eggs, especially omega3 eggs. 

Quote

But also Choline, Zinc, L-Carnitine, Taurine and simply a good amount of protein.
You can say that the nutrients just above are present in sufficient quantities in a vegan diet, or that they are not "essential nutrients" but:

1) It's hypocritical because vegans are all (or almost) pro-high carbs, exogenous carbohydrates are also not "essential" in absolute terms.

They tend to be on average but you could actually run a ketogenic vegan diet if you wanted. 

Idk where vegans are hypocrites. They don't say that you need or should eat as much carbs as possible to be healthy I don't think.

I don't think you are getting easily getting deficient in these nutrients as a vegan. Zinc is the only one of that list that DGE (German Society for Nutrition) sees as a high risk of lacking in vegans and they are pretty conservative in their claims. 

Quote

2) Just because you're not deficient in something doesn't mean low intake isn't a problem.
A low intake of the above nutrients will decrease your mental and physical performance.

That's what being deficient in something means, that it is a problem. 

Quote

No, it's literally the centerpiece.
No omega 3 EPA/DHA, no human brain development
Moreover, animal products are the most calorically dense in nature, there were no particularly caloric plants in Paleolithic Africa apart from certain fruits and tubers.

I've also posted several links that show that the demographic expansion of homo sapiens and his hominid ancestors significantly influenced the fauna of southern africa, as well as links showing that civilizations like the valley civilization industry was probably meat-based.

Well there are many intelligent plant eating animals. Those also developed their brain only with plants somehow. 

I asked chatgpt about it and that's it answer below.

Quote

If science (if that means anything) "proves" that a diet is healthier and it's irrefutable, then it's more likely that it's just our view of the paleo diet that's wrong.

What do you mean by that?

Quote

I'm not against carbohydrates, fruits and natural sources of monosaccharides are good.
In fact I eat a lot of carbohydrates for the calories, every morning I eat porridge, I just worry about preparing it well (soaking, cooking) and mixing it with butter so that it is pleasant for the intestines, Oats are inexpensive and quite nutritious. 

I am still aware that this is not natural in itself, given the preparation it requires, and that oats without butter/honey/fruits/spices are tasteless and even unpleasant.

Cooking is a very natural thing to do for us humans. Our digestive track is literally adapted for cooked food. 

Quote

agree

Herbivores are very fond of eating food that is not nutritionally dense.
Also the plants are not very dense for us because we cannot derive energy from the fibers (which are fructose polymers), but for a ruminant for example it is in fact dense food.

It will be more nutritionally dense but still a cow for example has to eat pounds of grass everyday to get enough calories. Even with everything adapted perfectly.

Quote

The real question is, will the pig choose between meat and cooked grains?
And even the answer will be tendentious because men are not pigs.

That's not what I wanted to illustrate. And cooked meat will be more nutritionally dense than cooked grains. 

Quote

I'm not sure I understood

Cow example

Quote

Yes, most people where I am eat almost raw meat, with just a little salt (or not).

Damn where do you live?

Quote

The bodybuilder diet is a nightmare, even the best food in the world will be disgusting if you have to eat it in industrial quantities.

yep

Quote

agree, but it's more complicated than plants vs meat.
A mango or certain vegetables are very good, kale is not pleasant.
Muscle meat, eggs and milk are very good, some parts of the animal can be unpleasant (kidneys, liver...)

I find that very interesting. I don't think people back then would through away the offal of an animal cause then they would waste a good chunk of the animal and the insights are the most nutritious. So doesn't that speak against carnivore diets being "natural" that we dislike the taste of unseasoned offals?

Edited April 25, 2023 by Jannes

[Leo Gura]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:17 AM, The0Self said:

What was affected the most? Triglycerides and HDL? Triglycerides and VLDL?

Every cholestoral number there is got way worse in every possible way.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Roy]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:53 AM, Schizophonia said:

Your excuse to repress your instincts and obey Dr. Greger, McDougall or another fallout ghoul? 

Ngl this post was triggering me a bit but then when you referred to vegans as fallout ghouls I spit laughing and realized you have a good sense of humor 

[undeather]

3 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Have your ApoB measured. It is more important than the entire lipid panel and most likely the most relevant marker. The test is relatively cheap in US

If it shows too high and you cannot change the diet for now, it might be a good idea to take an occasional injection of PCSK-9 inhibitor to protect your vascular system from atherogenesis while you fix your gut.

Alternatively, taking a low-grade statin would keep those levels low as well. It is not ideal, but it is the lesser evil where arterial plaque build-up is concerned. 

Just a friendly share

Good advice.
Maybe to mention that PCSK9-inhibitors are super expensive (~6-10k $/ year), while statins are cheap as hell.
Also, check your Lipoprotein A (Lp(a)) at least once in your lifetime - even if your ApoB is known. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by undeather

[Basman]

I went to a vegan restaurant an everyone inside was grumpy and miserable

6 hours ago, Roy said:

vegans as fallout ghouls

Litteraly.