Constructive criticism for Leo

[Thought Art]

15 minutes ago, Kore said:

My guess is that Leo has unconscious trauma to some degree.  I don't doubt his awakenings and enlightenment.  Certain people trigger his trauma response.  I think this trauma goes very deep.  I don't want to say too much.  I mean him and this community no harm.  I also support his work. 

I don’t see it but I don’t know him personally. I think you guys love to project on him. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thought Art

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Kore said:

My guess is that Leo has unconscious trauma to some degree.  I don't doubt his awakenings and enlightenment.  Certain people trigger his trauma response.  I think this trauma goes very deep.  I don't want to say too much.  I mean him and this community no harm.  I also support his work. 

There is no doubt about it. We all have some of this but his runs deep. 

[Thought Art]

@Inliytened1 Like, the growth I’ve gone through thanks to him. I was exceptionally existential and creative as a kid. Leo helped me in a lot of ways. The vision for loving my life, creating a sense of purpose, understanding deep philosophy, how to love myself, how to have deep awakenings into infinity and infinite love, infinite forgiveness, big picture thinking, the epistemology of science and religion, understanding myself as God, what is wisdom, what is integrity, what is the devil, corruption, self deception? What is ego and collective ego?  What is systems thinking? What is big picture thinking and life long learning? What is spirituality? What is absolute vs relative truth? What is paradox? What are all the fields of self help? How to think long term and invest into myself over the long term, how to contemplate and think original thoughts…etc etc. 
 

All I can say to Leo is, thank you. Thank you for being able to stand through all the fears, challenges, the nay sayers, etc 

He has made a very positive impact on me, and I see my self growing into a great wise man. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thought Art

[Gesundheit2]

@Thought Art He also gave you the green letters very recently, fulfilling one of your most desired dreams.

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Thought Art He also gave you the green letters very recently, fulfilling one of your most desired dreams.

@Thought Art dont hesitate to ban him.  The full 20 points will do.  Leo wont overrule it.

. 

[Gesundheit2]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Thought Art dont hesitate to ban him.  The full 20 points will do.  Leo wont overrule it.

. 

Okay. Now I know your most desired dream.

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Gesundheit2 said:

Okay. Now I know your most desired dream.

?

[Kore]

27 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I don’t see it but I don’t know him personally. I think you guys love to project on him. 

That could be or when I picked up on this I was highly sensitive to energetics.  It's really up for debate.  Not all 'mental disorders' are all cons only.  There are pros. 

When you are on the receiving end of some of this stuff (and you are vulnerable) then you start to really get it. 

[Thought Art]

@Gesundheit2 Yeah I’m a corrupt asshole got me

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Kore said:

That could be or when I picked up on this I was highly sensitive to energetics.  It's really up for debate.  Not all 'mental disorders' are all cons only.  There are pros. 

When you are on the receiving end of some of this stuff (and you are vulnerable) then you start to really get it. 

Excellent point.  It depends on the severity.   For example, OCD can be a pro.. Mental illness in general can be a window into spirituality- but when it gets too severe it will prevent you from functioning. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Gesundheit2]

8 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Gesundheit2 Yeah I’m a corrupt asshole got me

I didn't say that, not even in my mind.

But don't think you're somehow above developing biases. Power can corrupt anyone, and self-deception works best when ignored, so just be extra careful.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

This isn't about Consciousness so don't make it about it.

It's not me who's making it about Consciousness. It's him. 

He's saying that this is what he has to do to teach about Consciousness. And, this is his justification. 

Do you have anything to counter that? Do you have an improvement for him? Cuz what he's saying, is that this is a systemic issue in the delivery, that this is how his delivery has to be to maintain his quality of work. 

And, I have PMed you with some clues I have for this, since you're the one who's bringing this up and I don't want to create a scene here. I'm just grateful that he's doing what he's doing and I choose to not really publicly object to who he is as a person. I publicly voice objections only relative to the way he runs the forum, if and when I disagree with it. 

[Thought Art]

@Gesundheit2 Noted, 

But, I’ve liked Leo’s works for years. Being a Mod isn’t a deep dream for me ahahab

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

It's not me who's making it about Consciousness. It's him. 

He's saying that this is what he has to do to teach about Consciousness. And, this is his justification. 

Do you have anything to counter that? Mwith it. 

It should be glaringly clear to you that these are two separate domains. If you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.   Or him, for that matter.

[Tristan12]

@Leo Gura Personally I grew up around the kind of harsh, no-bullshit kind of attitude you display. My uncle used to be a professional soccer coach after playing in the olympics. Nice guy but also very firm and strict with a "get your fucking shit together" kind of attitude. I feel like his personality is very similar to that of Gordon Ramsay. I was the closest to my uncle out of any family member because he was the only one that cared about personal development and growing yourself, so even though he was harsh, I really resonated with him and valued the things he taught me.

I feel like that, combined with the fact that I have a strong masculine part of myself that resonates with and likes the kind of harsh, tough-love, cut the bullshit and go do it kind of attitude, I've never really had much of a problem with Leo's teaching style. I can see what people are saying, but personally it's never really bothered me and I rarely find it too much.

With that being said, I still do find it kind of strange to have a teaching style like that with spiritual topics. It doesn't feel very fitting, and it feels kind of low consciousness. I read what you said about your approach being about cutting the bullshit, and being very firm and direct to be able to get through to people, and I honestly like that and see the necessity for that, but I just think it could be improved a bit. 

I feel like the biggest thing would be to just care more about people's feelings. I feel like you could still be firm and direct, but deliver what you're trying to say in a way that doesn't hit people so hard. Meaning be more considerate of the emotional impact harsh truths have on people, or on how you are making people feel by cutting the bullshit and being brutally honest. I feel like if there was more "I know this may be hard to hear" or "I can see why you would be resistant to that, I would too" and just more consideration and validating of how people feel, I feel like the things you say would be received so much better and it would be so much easier for people to see the loving intentions behind your harsh teaching style.

When I read the things you say or hear how you talk in your videos sometimes, it feels very cold and rigid, like how it feels to run your hand along a pointed table's edge. Cold, hard, sharp, like a slap in the face. I'm sure that this is just your style and personality (I know you're an INTP) and so I get it, and I can see how it might feel weird or unnatural for you to not be this way, but I just feel like you would be received so much better with more concern for how people feel, and more warmth and uplifting encouragement, to the extent that it feels doable and authentic to you.

In regard to the things you say about reaching truths nobody has ever accessed, having a much deeper understanding than anyone else, and nobody else on here understanding what consciousness is, etc., I'm totally on board with that and I don't doubt what you're saying at all. When you say these kinds of things, I can see why people might take you for an arrogant know it all, but I can honestly see that you're not trying to be arrogant and that you're just stating the truth. I feel like anyone who cares enough about integrity, being a good, loving person, helping others, and talks as much about self-deception/is as aware of self-deception as much as you are, it makes no sense why you would just be stuck in a bubble of arrogance and delusion, and be so intensely adamant about it no matter what anyone says.

Especially considering that your whole life has been about discovering the highest truth, and you've done all these things like being super open-minded, being highly aware of self-deception, all this stuff, why would you suddenly lock yourself in delusion now? Of course anything is possible, and I know I can never know for sure unless I discover truth for myself, but I just wouldn't bet that you're deluded about these higher understandings. Even if you are totally wrong about everything, I feel like the people here are already making a huge mistake by feeling like they know it all and being closed to further discoveries in consciousness. Even if they were right, that close-mindedness is a red flag. How could they really know that there is nothing more to discover?

In terms of your arrogance, egotism, and all of that, like I said I can see through a lot of it and see that you're not trying to be that way and you're just trying to be firm and direct about the truth. I feel like I would have to talk more with you to really understand your reasonings behind things and understand how much is intentional and how much is true arrogance and egotism, but either way, I really don't get the sense that the way you are is problematic. I can see how you might want to adjust some things in your style to be able to appeal to more people (like I said above with empathy) but the only issues I see in you aren't anything more than just normal personal flaws and minor issues that everyone has. That's just my opinion. I will try my best to be honest with myself about anything I see in you that contradicts all of this, but for now I don't see any problem and will remain an avid follower and student of your work. Thank you for what you do.

[Gesundheit2]

12 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Gesundheit2 

I’ve liked Leo’s works for years.

That much is fairly obvious.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Inliytened1 That's the thing i dont care about someones character(only mine) as long as that person has depth in what they are speaking...that would mean im living in social matrix concerned about people ,what does that do to my growth? nothing just a distraction...

Edited January 27, 2023 by NoSelfSelf

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Inliytened1 That's the thing i dont care about someones character(only mine) as long as that person has depth in what they are speaking...that would mean im living in social matrix concirned about people what that do to my growth nothing just a distraction...

Depth in what way?   Here's the thing.  Ultimately what will advance you in life is your relation to people and how you relate to others starts with yourself.  

Edited January 27, 2023 by Inliytened1

[mr_engineer]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

It should be glaringly clear to you that these are two separate domains. If you can't see that then there is nothing I can do to help you.   Or him, for that matter.

The domains of Consciousness and personality are separate, for sure. But, the domains of personality and being a spiritual teacher, i.e. a teacher of Consciousness? Not so much. 

I'm trying my level best to not come across like I'm making excuses for him. But, if he is like this, honestly, we have one option, and that is to change our attitude in the way we listen to him. That's what I think. 

There is another problem in the spiritual community. There are too many zen-devils who think they have it all figured out. And that just because they have one or two awakenings, they're 'omniscient' and they know everything there is to know. Expertise and experience has respect in all other fields, but somehow, in spirituality, because of 'non-duality' and 'we are all One', expertise loses its respect here. The Dunning-Kruger effect is on steroids here for this reason. 

In such a situation, how is an expert supposed to assert their expertise, without sounding 'arrogant'? If Steve Jobs comes into an audience full of people and says 'Nobody in this room knows about computers as much as I do, and I will be able to maybe teach one person here the deep knowledge about computers that I have to offer', everyone will nod along without resistance. It will rub some people the wrong way but they'll fundamentally suck it up. But, in spirituality, you can't prove your expertise using billions of dollars, cuz that's 'materialism', which is a trap! How do you prove it, then?! What's the alternative to what Leo is doing? 

[Thought Art]

I don’t think Leo is as harsh or no none sense as you think he is. Anyway, he is very kind hearted and soft in many of his videos lately…

My ride with Leo hasn’t been all sweet and rosy. It’s been a challenge.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thought Art