UpperMaster

Andrew Tate - Good or corrupted message for society??

241 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, zurew said:

Nope, you don't have to intentionally lie and fuck over people in order to make money , thats what scammers do. There are big differences between companies, so we shouldn't be that reductive about it.

We were talking about his first business where he would get girls to strip infront of camera and sell that content to simps across the world. 

That's quite what the progressives want. "SEX WORK IS WORK."

So compare that situation with any normal company in silicon valley.

The employees slave away hours, and the people at the top sell the fruits of their work for a profit.

All giant companies intentionally lie and scam people.

That's how they make a profit. 

You have to sell something, more for what they are worth. Else people wouldn't buy it. There are elements of scamming involved in almost all sales.

Leo is running a highly conscious business. That is the exception. But to set that standards for normal business is not going to work. Even leo had his fair share of devilry back in the days. That's says something about the nature of business in general. 

If you think some other exceptions exist, feel free to provide examples.

What Tate does with HU is semi scammy. Affiliate marketing is the main money maker here. But he also teaches a lot of stuff which is available for free in the internet anyway. But you are only paying $49. You get what you put in. 

It's not like you are scammed for thousands of dollars like colleges do with their textbooks and stuff. 

Again feel free to talk about sufficiently large profit oriented companies with does not involve semi scamming stuff. 

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The whole game of scamming and exploiting people is that it's done in a legal grey zone.

For one, I would never allow my daughter/sister to be anywhere near Tate.

I do understand that it's not really ethical. I thought that it was implied.

Western society has no place for ethics anyway. Otherwise we should have banned porn and adult entertainment altogether because it is inherently exploitative. 

Else don't really have a ground for criticising his business model, when the progressive and "highly developed" stance is that sex work is as same as any other kind of work. 

But I am afraid you only see the scamming part of his business. Almost all of the adult entertainment industry money is made by by some dude who doesn't have to strip on camera. Also most of the time, Tate himself did the talking to the men who payed to see the naked models. Those men who thought were talking to the woman were actually talking to Tate. 

To be frank, these men want some emotional comfort and escape from their loneliness. They got some of it, and they paid for it.

Which wouldn't have happened if we banned OnlyFans. The progressives won't allow thag of course. If you ask to ban onlyfans, you are seen as a regressive conservative. 

Sure you can ask for better pay for the bottom tier workers, but that just simply didn't happen in the case if Tate. He took the most money he can milk out of them. I don't endorse these types of behaviour, but that is business. 

Same is true for onlyfans. 

 

3 hours ago, herghly said:

@Leo Gura are you surprised many of your followers like Andrew Tate?

I've been thinking about this a lot and it's hard to understand.

I thought people who follow you would be of higher development. 

Although majority of those who follow Tate/Trump are low in development, don't use that as a stereotypes to undermine what people are saying about them.

You can have low development and still have legitimacy to what you are saying and be high in development and be full if shit. 

Seriously I am tired of people making silly statements such that I am "low in development" because I said something they don't like. I am over this. 

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5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

All giant companies intentionally lie and scam people.

How? If i want to buy something from for example amazon, then i know exactly what item/service I will get for what price. On the other hand Tate literally and directly promoted a service and the customers didn't get that service and didn't get any repay at all.

There is a difference between using the capitalist system and the necessary power dynamics that comes with it vs using the capitalist system and adding intentionally scammy stuff upon it.

Also even if i were to give you for granted, that all giant companies lie, that still doesn't make Tate's case any better (if we are talking about integrity).

Edited by zurew

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3 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

 

This guy supported Trump. Read his post and see if you can honestly say you are more capable/wiser than him

 

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Girzo So you think you are wiser and more capable than him?

 

TJ is capable but definitely not wise.
I was part of his deathproof-university curriculum couple of years ago.

He is a textbook narcissist. Can't handle criticism. Banned everyone who disagreed with him. 
It was the worst and most unreflected meeting place for EVERY conspiracy theory imaginable. He believed in EVERYTHING.
He even split up with his closest ingroup because of some ridicolous argument. 
I was banned because I questioned his 5G-Covid "proof" - I wasn't even combative, just asking critical questions.

This guy is utterly insane - smart, but maniacle.
Great case for how far some charisma can bring you in this world.
Undeniably conscientious when it came to working hard, but far - FAR from being a person of wisdom.

Edited by undeather

MD. Internal medicine/gastroenterology - Evidence based integral health approaches

"Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
- Rainer Maria Rilke

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@undeather He's definitely got character flaws, but who on here does not?

So i'll ask you what I asked the other guy, do you believe you are wiser than he is? Do you think you have more retreat, psychidelic, etc experience than he has?

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Lol, this guy is balls deep in conspiracy theories.

 

Lmao, Wtf

 

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@zurew What does that prove if someone is deep into conspiracies?

Imo the more conscious you are, you will inevitably end up seeking the truth about conspiracies. It's worth considering do you know for sure that conspiracy theories are bs, or do you reflexively dismiss them because you think they are bs without ever looking into them

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3 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

 So you think you are wiser and more capable than him?

100%, if by wisdom you mean ability to see his childish behaviour as childish cosplaying of a wise man and by capable being able to use your talents in skillful ways to achieve your goals.

And also, it's an unecessary comparison.

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1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

What does that prove if someone is deep into conspiracies?

Imo the more conscious you are, you will inevitably end up seeking the truth about conspiracies. It's worth considering do you know for sure that conspiracy theories are bs, or do you reflexively dismiss them because you think they are bs without ever looking into them

Prove nothing, i was just mentioning it. 

Yes, if you are critiqually engaging with conspiracy theories, then yeah you could say that you are doing "truth seeking", but most of the time people who are deep into conspiracies , they are using selective scepticism. They are very sceptical about any mainstream narrative or news, but they often easily buy into the alternative media, alternative narratives and sources just because those are not mainstream and they are not using the same standards for both.

 

But here is a question for you @Raptorsin7 

Quote

He is a textbook narcissist. Can't handle criticism. Banned everyone who disagreed with him. 

If TJ Reeves is a truth seeker according to you, then why he isn't open to criticism and disagreement?

Also its really funny, that he was talking about the problem of censorship in one of his videos, when he is doing hardcore censorship as well.

 

Edited by zurew

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1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@undeather He's definitely got character flaws, but who on here does not?

So i'll ask you what I asked the other guy, do you believe you are wiser than he is? Do you think you have more retreat, psychidelic, etc experience than he has?

"Character flaw" - lol.
I think your heuristic around "becoming wise" is a bit off. 
Reeves is full of bias and it's painfully obvious once you have a real conversation with him. He is not interested in truth. He is interested in getting people to agree with his paradigm, that's all. There is no humility in him. Even if you come up with a really good counter-argument, he wont give you an INCH if it contradicts his worldview. I remember a certain individual getting banned from his deathproof-forum because he disagreed with TJ on a core subject . But then, instead of being aloof about it,  he made a 90 minute long video SHITTING on that guy in the worst ways possible. Calling him names. Calling him an "ugly loser". A "Jewish Rothschild-scum". This was in 2020 and he did the same to Leo. Is that how a wise person would act in your estimation? 

Sadly he deleted all his youtube-videos some time ago. Because otherwise, I could show you all the double standards, lies and outrageous promises he made in the past - of course non of them became reality:
1) He once claimed he invented a "helmet" that could raise IQ, never delivered anything (even though you could pay a ridicolous sum of money to get into the alpha-phase)
2) He lied about his education 
3) His self help course never released 
..and so on

He is the perfect example of why a large quantity of experiences won't make you wise per se. It's the integration and the contextualisation that matters. TJ scores very low at those and I am afraid that he will never make the jump. He too far gone. As Carl Jung said:"Beware of unearned wisdom" - and I think he hit the nail on it's head there.

I would never consider myself wise because that's exactly this self-elevating behaviour which contradicts the premise in it's essence. I try my best to not fall into my flaws and biases and so far, my life has been pretty amazing.

Now, he seems to have a fulfilling family life (I am still friends with him on facebook) and that's great. I don't wish him any ill. 
Maybe he grew up and came back to reality a bit since his daughter was born. 
 

Edited by undeather

MD. Internal medicine/gastroenterology - Evidence based integral health approaches

"Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
- Rainer Maria Rilke

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I don't know much about Tate. He recently popped-up on my newsfeed on YT, I sow five or so "shorts" on him.  

The guy would do anything for money, he went on saying "even if something I'm not passionate about, I'll still do it as long as it brings me money." 

So basically, he would sell his own soul for money. Not because he needed any money, but simply to have, (aka, to feel  powerful?).

 

he also said along the lines "a women should be home, cooking, cleaning, having kids etc.. that is what a man wants from a women" 

The thing is, yes, a women can provide all that, but this isn't valued as much in the modern world. A man can get that on his own, with ease. 

And if that was what they valued, they would be better off living with robots. They are more simple to deal with than a human being. 

Which I see it happening in soon the future, so are those really what men values in a women? 

I value women because of their beauty and how loving they can be. And I think, most men wants a deep sense of connection and feeling loved. Or those are what both genders wants, I'd argue. 

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20 hours ago, undeather said:

Human beings are NOT simple. Thats a gross oversimplification.
The brain in vat, acting out calculated expressions of an emergent psyche is a well known but largely disproven hypothesis from oldschool behvaiourism-folks like B.F. Skinner. In fact, one of the main arguments in the last century of psychology-reserach was exactly what you are trying to say here: You can predict how people operate based on a very limiting set of drives/fears and similar factors. It failed spectecularly. Human beings, so it seems, are just way more complex than we thought - if not to say - combinatorially explosive. 

Now, I am not going to deny that there is a certain element of truth in that. There are definitely patterns which we can kind of intuit and it's directly correlated with the amount of self-knowledge we have gained up to this point. I understand the essence of your point but it's not nearly as reliable as you think it is. 

FBI negotiators are terrible at predicting human behaviour. This is a well established subject. Despite the popular appeal of body language or vocal queues, no study has uncovered any single behavior that accurately reflects whether a person is for example lying. Again, there is some truth to the negotiator who free's hostages throguh smart arguments - there is psychology which can influence odds, but it's again - just not very successful overall. 

The phrase “Know thyself” is not originally from Socrates. It is a quote inscribed on the frontispiece of the Temple of Delphi and has very little to do with how other individuals operate. First and firemost it's a process of understanding the self, development of the same and society for the overall benefit of the individual and others. If Socrates was here today, he would use some sort of socratian dialogue to sort out this situation - not some semi-deductive heuristic you are proposing. 

 

Humans aren't simple because you don't know yourself. The more you learn yourself the more you learn others. If you cannot see this, it just means you need more experience. The highest form of knowing another is shared experience. A rape victim will understand another rape victim at a higher level than someone who never had the experience. Because as a human they understand the different stages of emotional grief and turmoil they went through. 

What they would lack is the interconnectedness of other past events and how they influenced the internalization of that event into the other's psyche. 

Also Socrates did say it. https://www.theschooloflife.com/article/know-yourself/#:~:text=In Ancient Greece%2C the philosopher,'

There are techniques that exist right now, to figure you in fine detail. Most people do not know themselves very well because they hide behind lies they tell themselves. Your ability to be controlled and manipulated is equal to the level you lie and manipulate yourself. 

So unless you are conscious you are actually very simple minded and predictable. I can tell by your responses you are not well-versed in power games and how they are used to control your behavior. A skilled negotiator would trick you to easily if you do not understand how simple humans are. Again humans are EXTREMELY simple. People in marketing know this. The only complex psychological aspect of a human, is the web of stories they tell themselves to construct the map of meaning that built their perspective. But once you learn what their values are, and their temperament you can easily control and manipulate them. Your ability to resist such tactics is based on your knowledge of these tactics and how much experience you have with them. 

Or you can destroy the whole game.....by not wanting to win. The most powerful hand you can ever play is not caring either way which then collapses the whole power game manipulation. Since most people want to win/survive.....they become very predictable.

Edited by Razard86

You are a selfless LACK OF APPEARANCE, that CONSTRUCTS AN APPEARANCE. But that appearance can disappear and reappear and we call that change, we call it time, we call it space, we call it distance, we call distinctness, we call it other. But notice...this appearance, is a SELF. A SELF IS A CONSTRUCTION!!! 

So if you want to know the TRUTH OF THE CONSTRUCTION. Just deconstruct the construction!!!! No point in playing these mind games!!! No point in creating needless complexity!!! The truth of what you are is a BLANK!!!! A selfless awareness....then that means there is NO OTHER, and everything you have ever perceived was JUST AN APPEARANCE, A MIRAGE, AN ILLUSION, IMAGINARY. 

Everything that appears....appears out of a lack of appearance/void/no-thing, non-sense (can't be sensed because there is nothing to sense). That is what you are, and what arises...is made of that. So nonexistence, arises/creates existence. And thus everything is solved.

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I don't want to derail this thread, but these clips are funny.

 

 

Edited by zurew

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6 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Humans aren't simple because you don't know yourself. The more you learn yourself the more you learn others. If you cannot see this, it just means you need more experience. The highest form of knowing another is shared experience. A rape victim will understand another rape victim at a higher level than someone who never had the experience. Because as a human they understand the different stages of emotional grief and turmoil they went through. 

What they would lack is the interconnectedness of other past events and how they influenced the internalization of that event into the other's psyche. 

Also Socrates did say it. https://www.theschooloflife.com/article/know-yourself/#:~:text=In Ancient Greece%2C the philosopher,'

I know myself pretty well. In fact, my nature is one of being extremely introspective, almost painfully so. 
You have no idea how much experiences I have gathered in my life, you dont know me at all.
I just disagree with your whole premise and I layed out the argument in my previous post. By saying that "I just need more experience" you are begging the question, which is when you use the point you're trying to prove as an argument to prove that very same point. Rather than proving the conclusion is true, it assumes it. That's a bias. 

Again, there is a core of truth in what you say  - but you seem to be quiet an absolutist:"If you understand yourself, you can understand other peopel". I would meet you when you would change it to "It's easier to understand other people if you understand yourself".

The rape victim analogy is also very partial. 
There is well known phenomenon in psychologoy that some rape victims actually enjoyed it, which can make the healing process even more difficult. Do you see the issues of absolute relateability and emotional grief in that example? 

Yes, Socrates did say it and I never said otherwise. Many greek philosophers used this phrase.
I said it ORIGINATED from the Oracle of Delphi and the context you used it for was not Socratian in nature. 


MD. Internal medicine/gastroenterology - Evidence based integral health approaches

"Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
- Rainer Maria Rilke

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7 hours ago, herghly said:

are you surprised many of your followers like Andrew Tate?

Why would you say many? You haven't done anything like a serious survey, you've just seen a few loudmouths here who like him. This tells you little. Most people here clearly see the problems with Tate. And my most serious followers rarely comment because they are busy doing the work. This Tate thing is just a distraction and they don't care about him.

A few young guys here who are struggling to figure out their masculinity and how to attract girls may resonant with Tate's message. And so what?


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura Leo is there an alternative role model you could recommend to these folks here?

One that will likely resonate with them but imbue more healthy versions of red and orange.


Be-Do-Have

There is no failure, only feedback

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2 minutes ago, Ulax said:

@Leo Gura Leo is there an alternative role model you could recommend to these folks here?

One that will likely resonate with them but imbue more healthy versions of red and orange.

Owen Cook


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@undeather He's definitely got character flaws, but who on here does not?

So i'll ask you what I asked the other guy, do you believe you are wiser than he is? Do you think you have more retreat, psychidelic, etc experience than he has?

You really have to be careful with this type of teacher bro, how he comes across to me is someone who thinks he has all the answers and has more knowledge than anyone else, Im not overly familiar with his content but i have watched a few of his videos in the past and seen him post on here and this is the impression that i get. Now really look into yourself and consider that what attracts you to this type of teacher is a longing for certainty, people like Trump, Reeves, potentially Tate, offer very clear cut 'truth' and are very certain about it, this is extremely attractive and it reinforces itself because it lets you live in that truth as well as have excellent arguments for why this is true if anyone questions you. They may say things like 'snowflakes try and shut down what we want to say because they dont want freedom', there is a highly nuanced discussion to be had about what is freedom and its probably something you would consider but the idea behind this kind of statement is to shutdown that internal dialogue you might have and just accept what they are saying so you can align to them. 

Regarding Reeves in particular, if you look at Wilburs grow up, clean up, wake up, show up idea, Reeves may have done stuff to wake up and show up but he may also have not really grown up or cleaned up. Meaning that he may have some core issues that have not been dealt with or he just may not have the maturity that comes from experience and age, generally this can become an issue for younger teachers as there is most likely a lot of karma they havent yet burnt through. So sometimes what people do and probably what i myself have done in the past, is try to bypass the clean up and grow up stage, get some traction waking up as in having really profound, meditative experiences, then believing that you have somehow cracked the code and are enlightened and if only everyone followed you they would be too. What you dont realise is that the only reason you feel like that is because you havent actually done your clean up phase, youre just elated that you think youve found a shortcut.

Then what tends to happen is these issues pop up in different areas, it might be that you are narcissistic and you havent dealt with that but now because you see yourself as enlightened, the problem is everyone else it cant be your as you get it and no one else does. This can go down a very dark and lonely path. All the teachers I respect just dont seem to have that kind of hyper doing energy, people like Spira, Mooji, Tolle and of course i may be wrong about them but just the sense i get, I think with them it is because theyve truly worked on all those things Wilbur mentioned and are now legitimately in the show up phase where they just add value and are not really concerned with egotistic pursuits. Its not that egotistic pursuits are bad per se its just you have to recognise them for what they are, these Reeves type people lack wisdom in the sense that they dont recognise that they are still in this ego phase its just theyre using the higher phases to boost their ego. Its like if I'm in an ego phase and i want to compete with you to be better than you, if im intelligent and i hear about all these higher teachings I just need to understand them somewhat and then i can convince at least myself that im better than you because you dont even know what they are, this doesnt mean that Ive fully internalised them. 

Of course this type of teacher is exciting because they simplify things but this is only because they are not actually fully developed so of course its more simple, the reality is a lot of development is pretty long and boring and actually not at all rewarding for your ego. 

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