Pick-up is a trap.

[mr_engineer]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. I don't even know how you pass those and keep your integrity, to be honest. 

And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?! 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Scholar]

10 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. 

And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?! 

Not to be rude, but I don't know if Leo is the right guy to ask considering he is not really that much of an expert on relationships? I feel like his lack of empathy kind of hinders him from actually understanding human beings, so a lot of it comes from intellectualization, similar to his framework around enlightenment and so forth.

I mean sometimes, the "insights" in regards to people and human psychology he talks about in his videos are so mindblowing to me that I am not sure if he doesn't have some form of autism. Just my perspective so take that with a grain of salt.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Scholar

[mr_engineer]

@Scholar The reason I'm talking to Leo about this is that I have a lot of respect for him as a man. He has a genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love, etc. And, to be very honest, he is one of the few men who understands spirituality and who is talking about a concrete solution to the issue of getting laid. 

If I talk to some other PUA, they'll throw their own rationalizations of what 'love' is and what 'spirituality' is. That'll be zen-devilry. I don't expect any better from them, to be honest. I can be this honest here cuz this place shows a relatively low tolerance for toxic masculinity and has a certain degree of emphasis on the ethics of getting laid. I'm trying to add to the discussion of ethics, by adding the topic of ethics of finding love to it. Now, if pick-up ends up eating its own tail as a result of it, I gotta talk about it here! Cuz I have nowhere else to talk about it. And this is where you discuss strange-loops. 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Scholar The reason I'm talking to Leo about this is that I have a lot of respect for him as a man. He has a genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love, etc. And, to be very honest, he is one of the few men who understands spirituality and who is talking about a concrete solution to the issue of getting laid. 

If I talk to some other PUA, they'll throw their own rationalizations of what 'love' is and what 'spirituality' is. That'll be zen-devilry. I don't expect any better from them, to be honest. I can be this honest here cuz this place shows a relatively low tolerance for toxic masculinity and has a certain degree of emphasis on the ethics of getting laid. I'm trying to add to the discussion of ethics, by adding the topic of ethics of finding love to it. Now, if pick-up ends up eating its own tail as a result of it, I gotta talk about it here! Cuz I have nowhere else to talk about it. And this is where you discuss strange-loops. 

You don't know if he has genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love etc.

You could only know that if you yourself had that knowledge, and if you had, you wouldn't be asking the kind of questions you are. Getting laid is not the same as getting a relationship, they are two completely seperate area's of mastery. And it does not seem like Leo has spent a lot of time mastering the latter.

Don't put so much trust into him, use your own mind and explore this issue yourself.

[Nilsi]

36 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Not to be rude, but I don't know if Leo is the right guy to ask considering he is not really that much of an expert on relationships? I feel like his lack of empathy kind of hinders him from actually understanding human beings, so a lot of it comes from intellectualization, similar to his framework around enlightenment and so forth.

I mean sometimes, the "insights" in regards to people and human psychology he talks about in his videos are so mindblowing to me that I am not sure if he doesn't have some form of autism. Just my perspective so take that with a grain of salt.

I don't think it's necessarily a lack of empathy. The more I'm trying to have conscious relationships and invest in them, the more I realize how much of a pain in the ass they are. I can definitely sympathize with not wanting to get involved in relationships at all, and seeing humans as mostly unconscious selfish fucks, though that's still a perspective I'm not willing to take personally.

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I don't think it's necessarily a lack of empathy. The more I'm trying to have conscious relationships and invest in them, the more I realize how much of a pain in the ass they are. I can definitely sympathize with not wanting to get involved in relationships at all, and seeing humans as mostly unconscious selfish fucks, though that's still a perspective I'm not willing to take personally.

No, I think Leo has a literal lack of capacity for empathy. I'm not talking about him choosing to ignore it, I'm talking about him lacking structures in his brain that give him the capacity to perceive certain things. And it's sometimes mindblowing to me that people don't recognize this, it's like the most obvious thing in the world to me.

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that

We dont live in the stone age anymore. A nice guy provider is way more useful to her survival these days. Or is her attraction circuit still based on the stone age, on what would be useful in the stone age.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

Absolutely not. That's the problem. You're strawmanning and demonizing pickup in your mind.

I am not telling you to be an asshole, I'm telling you to gather your balls and APPROACH.

You're not approaching. That's the problem. You're inventing excuses to avoid simply approaching. And approaching has nothing to do with being an asshole or even manipulating women.

How do you expect to fuck if you don't approach? And how do you expect love if you don't fuck? This isn't rocket science, just 1-2-3 basics.

[Nilsi]

47 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

We dont live in the stone age anymore. A nice guy provider is way more useful to her survival these days. Or is her attraction circuit still based on the stone age, on what would be useful in the stone age.

These evolutionary dynamics on sexual selection are pretty hardwired into us. It's not the only variable, but it's still running much of the show. Today status signalling is not necessarily about having the biggest dick or muscles, and can be something more abstract like being witty, driving a sports car, being a celebrity etc.; but in the end, these primal clues like body posture, "confidence," leadership, health etc. are pretty much still what girls are looking for in a man.

[Roy]

1 hour ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

What are you talking about...?

Exactly how it works? Young men learn how to interact with the opposite sex in adolescence from their peer group of other young men encouraging each other and taking risks. If they don't experience that then it's going to be extremely difficult later on when they lose reliable access to that peer group. Which is why there is a marketplace of pick-up resources. 15-20 years ago there really weren't any incels or much of a problem with men not being able to interact with women. Even the nerdiest losers got laid eventually. It was mostly technology that has caused this modern phenomena in my opinion (partly feminism to a degree as well). In the age of "social media" people are actually more awkward and less social than ever, ironically.

Hence why pick-up is a necessary evil. It's one of the only tools unlucky men have to dig themselves out of that hole. since they can't go back in time to adolescence. They have to brute force it. Of course the guys who need it have to romanticize and market it as an all encompassing general self-development tool, as a way to cope with the fact that in practice it's really a lot of manipulative tactics and scummy behavior. Consider there is a reason why a lot of the big names in pick-up have a torrent of rape accusations against them, and are banned from basically every platform and even visiting some countries looool. They've needed to rebrand to cover up how much devilry goes on. It would be delusional to deny it and just say it's some feminist conspiracy to control media either.

 

[BlessedLion]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

@Leo Gura I’d love to see a new video on masculinity. I feel you’ve gone much deeper into this field and I feel many men could use it 

[BlessedLion]

8 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'.

That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. I don't even know how you pass those and keep your integrity, to be honest. 

And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?! 

The whole point of the shit test is to show that you keep your integrity in the face of challenges. If you are responding just to pass her shit test, then you failed  

 

Sometimes sticking to your truth and failing a shit test is actually winning 

[BlessedLion]

5 hours ago, Cat_eyes said:

I’m just randomly commenting here, I didn’t read the whole thread just the last several comments.  But what i would like to add, from the point of being in a relationship, is that this whole needing to be with a ‘strong man’ is mostly a societal thing.  I find myself judging my boyfriend for certain things, but I’m very conscious about it and what I noticed is that it’s more how I think others will view my relationship.  Like ‘he should be doing this or that’ and then when I switch myself off from those thoughts and be present, I really appreciate my partner and feel more love.  These thoughts comes back again though, and it’s every time I either see other people showcasing their relationships online, or, I read a book or an online comment.  Then the overthinking begins again.
it’s difficult enough for women to have to worry about being perfect girls, on top of that we have to worry about how our relationship looks to others.  But I guess guys do the same, they care about whether other people view their latest girlfriend as hot or not, right? 
I think for sure every girl goes through a phase where they date an ‘asshole’ or ‘player‘. But remember this is phase and usually a young phase when we are naive and undeveloped and inexperienced. As soon as we as women gain more experience, personal development and mature, this is far from what we want for a long term relationship.  Attraction and biology is definitely changing, especially when you think how less and less people are wanting children.. also because trauma is changing.  People are waking up and not following in the footsteps of how  their parents were behaving or what they were attracted to. don’t forget how easily information is available now.  Just because you get a girl attracted doesn’t mean she will remain fooled since we have so much dating/relationship info available at the touch of a button.  Whereas before people didn’t have that so they were blind to manipulations. 

This right here is exactly why I want to find a woman who is self conscious and spiritual. You picked up on your programming and how you were projecting it onto your boyfriend. That is so powerful! 

[Raptorsin7]

@Scholar You're not the only one who holds that view. 

[mr_engineer]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolutely not. That's the problem. You're strawmanning and demonizing pickup in your mind.

I am not telling you to be an asshole, I'm telling you to gather your balls and APPROACH.

You're not approaching. That's the problem. You're inventing excuses to avoid simply approaching. And approaching has nothing to do with being an asshole or even manipulating women.

How do you expect to fuck if you don't approach? And how do you expect love if you don't fuck? This isn't rocket science, just 1-2-3 basics.

I don't know if you read my OP. I said that I've seen what works to hook women. That's based on an experience-base of approaching. 

I'm not saying this as someone who failed to make it work to get laid. I'm saying this as someone who did see how I'm going to get laid using this way and I said 'no' to it. Cuz it doesn't align with my values. 

Every objection you hear to pick-up isn't from some loser who isn't approaching! 

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

The whole point of the shit test is to show that you keep your integrity in the face of challenges. If you are responding just to pass her shit test, then you failed  

 

Sometimes sticking to your truth and failing a shit test is actually winning 

The thing is that it is impossible to keep perfect integrity in the face of women who have no trust in you because you're a player and who have impossibly high expectations, which is what the shit-tests communicate. At some point, you gotta break your integrity to get laid. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Scholar]

7 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Scholar You're not the only one who holds that view. 

I know, multiple moderators on this forum have left or given up their moderation role because of Leo's lack in this regard.

Not sure if Leo can do much about it to be honest, but combined with his overconfidence it can be a little annoying sometimes, lol. But hey we all have our flaws, maybe it's one of the reasons why he can focus so much on the things he has focused on. But I do think certain takes he has have to be taken with a grain of salt, and people ought to be aware of that in my opinion. He has developed a bit more awareness around this for the past few years, where he is recognizing that he is pretty different from people and lacks experience in certain domains completely.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Scholar

[Globalcollective]

On 15/08/2022 at 10:43 AM, mr_engineer said:

Pick-up cannot be used as a way to find love. And here's why. 

Most women are conditioned with an idea of 'love' by the movies, by rom-coms. They're looking for 'love' in that form. And, pick-up is the art/science of manipulating that to get laid. 

Even if you marry someone through this dating-strategy, chances are very low that this person will actually love or care about you. Because their idea of 'love' comes from movies. It's not actual love! And you will be stuck trying to continuously manipulate their perception of you, just to continue getting laid with them.

Is this a relationship you want? Where you cannot relax with them, you're on your toes all the time?! The 'companionship' will also be fake, by the way. 

And, on top of that, you will have to meet their exorbitantly high expectations that fit the definition of 'love'. Cuz the reality is that most of the heroes in rom-coms are rich narcissistic guys who the female protagonists are able to 'change', by playing some sort of jealousy-game or something. This is why we have more single guys than ever now, cuz they can't meet these expectations. 

So, what do you do to find love? You seek out women who are also doing some shadow-work and shedding some conditioning, where they're seeing through the illusion of 'love' that they're conditioned with. And they have an experience of actual love through enlightenment-experiences or something. And they are in the actual practice of love! 

And, if you really want to do pick-up, do it only if you're surrounded by unconscious women and you're just horny. It's not a reliable dating-strategy and you will have to progress past it to do genuine dating. 

@mr_engineer This is all false sadly. I know why you would think this tho. Dose this come from experience from game? 

Ive been in and out of game for about 12 years and I have had amazing relationships with incredible women I met through game and everything in-between. You need alot of experience to fully grasp the scope of the infinite possible relationships you can have with people. this is a very close minded idea, I mean if you meet a very conscious girl and start a relationship with her your still going to be doing some level of pickup. Even if you meet naturally at work say or at an event. Stop theorising and get out there, you'd be surprised what is possible, in-fact eventually you will learn you cant understand this, the universe will play games with you making you thing you have figured it out then boom something will come along to blindside you. 

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I know, multiple moderators on this forum have left or given up their moderation role because of Leo's lack in this regard.

Not sure if Leo can do much about it to be honest, but combined with his overconfidence it can be a little annoying sometimes, lol. But hey we all have our flaws, maybe it's one of the reasons why he can focus so much on the things he has focused on. But I do think certain takes he has have to be taken with a grain of salt, and people ought to be aware of that in my opinion. He has developed a bit more awareness around this for the past few years, where he is recognizing that he is pretty different from people and lacks experience in certain domains completely.

Daniel Schmachtenberger is a great role model, when it comes to conscious relationships tbh. Leo has said himself that Schmachtenberger is more developed and integrated than him in many ways. Leo's teachings are the deepest and most profound you will find, but don't expect him to be perfect. That's the privilege of being a student - you can learn different things from different people.

[mr_engineer]

@Globalcollective You can have amazing relationships through pick-up. I'm talking about love, specifically. There can be amazing transactional relationships that you can have through pick-up! 

One thing that's always turned me off from pick-up is that they never use the word 'love'. It's always demonized, in the context of 'Oneitis' or something. In fact, they don't believe in the existence of love! 

I have found better ways of doing this, to be honest. Pick-up involves too much bullshit-talk, you can't really get straight to the point. And, I have escaped 'having to do pick-up'. I find that to be a limiting-belief, quite honestly. You can directly connect with her and get laid that way. But, pick-up is too fixated on the 'hottest women' for that. 

I see another way of doing this and what I'm saying is 'Hey everyone, you don't have to use all of these manipulative techniques to get laid. I understand why you feel the need to do that, cuz you're dealing with unconscious women. But, here's another option, where the women are conscious and they will directly connect with you. It's simpler!' 

Edited August 18, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Globalcollective]

14 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Globalcollective You can have amazing relationships through pick-up. I'm talking about love, specifically. There can be amazing transactional relationships that you can have through pick-up! 

One thing that's always turned me off from pick-up is that they never use the word 'love'. It's always demonized, in the context of 'Oneitis' or something. In fact, they don't believe in the existence of love! 

I have found better ways of doing this, to be honest. Pick-up involves too much bullshit-talk, you can't really get straight to the point. And, I have escaped 'having to do pick-up'. I find that to be a limiting-belief, quite honestly. You can directly connect with her and get laid that way. But, pick-up is too fixated on the 'hottest women' for that. 

@mr_engineer Yes of course you can have health loving relationships through game. Me and 100's of of other guys have had this what are you talking about? I know lots of people who have gotten married through pick up. Seems you have the wrong idea about it. If your meeting girls and falling in love then why do you care about pick up? What you do with game is up to you, yes you can be shallow, the choice is yours. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Globalcollective