Pick-up is a trap.

[mr_engineer]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I understand that some hopes and dreams are getting threatened or crushed right now. 

I am presenting an alternative, in the New-Age spiritual community. Those women are really intuitive and they understand what 'love' really is. They can 'love'! 

You just can't get away with manipulating them. Cuz they do shadow-work and they work on their conditioning. So, I want this to serve as a warning to PUAs, about the dangers of this modus operandi of getting laid. 

And, as far as what they want, they are loud and clear about it. No confusion. Imagine that, for a moment! 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@mr_engineer You do you.

[something_else]

38 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This is a strawman. 

Then by all means explain to me how you plan on finding what you want in a relationship. What is your approach going to be to find the girl you want? In concrete terms to me what your approach is going to be to find the girl of your dreams?

38 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. 

I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. 

It's as concrete as it gets. 'Go and talk to lots of girls'

But in your mind that is pickup so you don't like it. It doesn't even have to be framed as pickup. It's really just doing tons and tons of socialising and learning how to meet lots of new people.

And I'm going to hold you to this:

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying

...

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives

Elaborate.

The reason I'm being quite aggressive is because the way you are now comes across very similar to how I was in the past when I was inexperienced and it riles me up to see someone falling for the same trap. Sorry if I am coming across too harsh.

Edited August 16, 2022 by something_else

[mr_engineer]

1 minute ago, something_else said:

Then by all means explain to me how you plan on finding what you want in a relationship. What is your approach going to be to find the girl you want? In concrete terms to me what your approach is going to be to find the girl of your dreams?

Right now, I'm focused on my Life-Purpose. I am using that as a way to shape my authentic personality right now. It aligns with who I am as a man and who I am sexually. 

Then, when I seriously get to contributing value to the world, I will attract attention to me. Then, when I get female attention, I will be able to convert that. Because my authentic personality will align with the way I survive, the way I make money. 

I tried this last time. It would've worked, except that I was wrong about my Life-Purpose. This led to a big mental-health crisis for me. I had to expand my understanding of what my Purpose is. And stop dating for a while. 

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

It's as concrete as it gets. 'Go and talk to lots of girls'

But in your mind that is pickup so you don't like it. It doesn't even have to be framed as pickup. It's really just doing tons and tons of socialising and learning how to meet lots of new people.

Which girls? Talk about what? To what end? 

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

And I'm going to hold you to this:

1 hour ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying

...

For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives

Elaborate.

There are tons of players who have insecurities about women, mental-health problems, can't keep a relationship. This is what they did. That's my counter-example. 

And, through my method, through going for people whose definition of 'love' I agree with, I was able to find people who I could genuinely connect and grow with. Now, I haven't gotten laid this way yet, but I can totally see myself getting laid. And, they themselves are in relationships and I see how they work, what it takes to make them work. I learn from their mistakes too. 

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mr_engineer Girls are not attracted to love. They are attracted to SURVIVAL VALUE.

I know what you mean: just loving a girl will get you nowhere.
Though girls are most definitely highly attracted to authentic expressions of (romantic) love. Such as passionate kissing, love in tone of voice, masculine protectiveness, ownership and being in tune with her emotions and "agenda" and also/especially vulnerability!

@Leo Gura
When you say "survival value" you make it sound like every guy needs to be the stereotypical Chad douchebag or some kind of successful millionaire. Which will result in newbies acting in all kinds of creepy and even sociopathic ways. 
If a guy wants to get good with girls. He either needs to get in touch with his authentic masculinity and/or with their femininity when a guy is overly masculine (though this is rarer). 

There are no shortcuts, strong men are made not born. But...! A cheat code I use before dates and before nights going out is to masturbate but not to cum. This will put me easier in touch with my powerful masculinity and sexual charisma, and my femininity is also still with me. I've done it so often that I actually can watch soft porn in a pretty disciplined manner, never feel painful blueballs and I also don't cum immediately when having sex. (after a while your balls seem to forget they were on the brink of cumming.)

So for the more feminine guys, I highly recommend trying this technique and noticing the difference in how you feel and act and how girls react to you.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Love comes long after sex.

She's not gonna fall in love with you until you fuck her properly. And she's not gonna let you fuck her unless she sees value in you.

So if you want love, start with offering social value.

I get what you're saying but it's not totally true. It definitely does not have to be this way. 
There are more "pure" and spiritual components at play as well. But yes, the better you get with girls the better you can capitalize on these aspects.

[BlessedLion]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:11 AM, Terell Kirby said:

@mr_engineer have you even tried pick-up to have come to this conclusion?

If not, you might be projecting negative bias against it.

Agreed. I’ve met tons of great quality women through pick up

[BlessedLion]

4 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

@DefinitelyNotARobot I understand that some hopes and dreams are getting threatened or crushed right now. 

I am presenting an alternative, in the New-Age spiritual community. Those women are really intuitive and they understand what 'love' really is. They can 'love'! 

You just can't get away with manipulating them. Cuz they do shadow-work and they work on their conditioning. So, I want this to serve as a warning to PUAs, about the dangers of this modus operandi of getting laid. 

And, as far as what they want, they are loud and clear about it. No confusion. Imagine that, for a moment! 

Totally agree with this dude. Women in spiritual circles (legit ones, not bs) can actually pick up on energy very well and would reject almost all the Todd V type guys who are successful in clubs scenes. They are too smart for that shit 

[Dean Gladwyn]

I think the word 'pick-up' has many negative connotations associated with it. Everyone has a point in retrospect, but will ultimately depend on what your own personal agenda is. I know guys who have associated themselves with a genuine dating coach because he has an anxiety attack at the mere thought of talking to a woman, yet, he wants to find that special someone with whom he can build a relationship. Of course, practice, self-esteem, and confidence all come into play with that, so yeah, he has to do the pick-up work to be able to give himself the opportunity to approach and meet a suited woman. On the other hand, you have guys using pick-up just to get laid, and complete the process of nothing but meeting women just to sleep with. It comes with different perspectives.

[mr_engineer]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mr_engineer Girls are not attracted to love. They are attracted to SURVIVAL VALUE.

Love comes long after sex.

She's not gonna fall in love with you until you fuck her properly. And she's not gonna let you fuck her unless she sees value in you.

So if you want love, start with offering social value.

Another point about this - when you wear a leather-jacket, you behave a certain 'confident' way at the club and attract female attention this way and say that they see this as 'survival-value', this speaks to their conditioning from the movies. 

In the movies, the hero has this confident body-posture and he wears leather-jackets and he's socially confident. And, he's able to fight off the bad guys. And 'rescues her' from them. This conditioning from movies creates this association in women's minds. And, this is what pick-up caters to. As I said in my OP. 

And this is what cannot translate to actual love. It can resemble 'love' in movie-terms, cuz both of you are playing that character. But, it can't be actual love. Cuz it's based on bullshit, it's not real. 

Same goes for 'taming a player'. Comes from movies. Real life doesn't work like that! Then, they get disillusioned and ask 'Where are all the good men?!' 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[mr_engineer]

Also, it makes it so women create this divisive sperm-war between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. And then, they expect the 'good guys' to protect them from the 'bad guys'. And, the only actual difference between who 'you' are, in their minds, is how you present yourself. What clothes you wear, what you say you believe. And, of course, this illusion falls apart six months into the relationship. The wires have gotten so crossed that they've turned 'being nice' into a bad thing! 

And then, you have PUAs saying 'Whether she sees you as a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' is a matter of having good game or bad game'. 

If you want love, don't stand for this division. Stand for unity! No more jealousy-games, no more flexing your lay-count. I will even go as far as to say that this is the real reason for incel-shootings, not the fact that they're not getting laid in and of itself. If we didn't lionize guys with high lay-counts (which is just a number, anyways), incels wouldn't feel overwhelmed with the pressure to keep up. They would take it easier, and their game would improve just like that. But, well. If you want to win the sperm-war, you're a part of the problem of incel-shootings. 

[Vrubel]

@mr_engineer You sound very inexperienced and therefore ignorant of the issue at hand. Sperm-wars? incel-shootings? remove these words from your vocabulary and commit to getting better with girls so you can find yourself one nice girlfriend. It won't be easy but definitely worth it for the self-development you'll achieve. The sex itself is not what it is about. 

I hope you will be able to read your post one day and cringe at it. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Vrubel

[mr_engineer]

@Vrubel 1000 approaches is a lot of work, a big commitment. 

It is natural for someone being told to do that, to ask 'What's the material incentive? Why will I be doing so much work?' It's like another full-time job, practically speaking. 

[Vrubel]

@mr_engineer

Do not be so intimidated, it's not a full-time job. It's mostly when you start out it's the most grueling. Eventually, you just have to find your way of doing this in a time and energy-efficient way. forget about the 1000 approaches. After a little time of approaching you'll be swallowed into the belly of the beast. Then you'll have to decide whether to commit or opt out. once you commit, you commit, then there is no way out for you anymore. Welcome to real self-development. 

It's true, most people don't have the vision, mentality or heart to commit. Are you "most people"?

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer No one has ever said PA first goal is to find make you find the love of your life. This might be a product of it.
As i already said you do coscious dating so that you become more authentic, leading, decisive, pleasent and fearless man.
And this will make you good at attracting women, and you can't escape the attraction phase in relationship.

Even if you find this hypothetical enlightened woman, you willl still have to attract her, make her curious about you, impress her. You will will have to go on dates with her. what do you expect? that she's going to fall for you just because you have spirituality in common?

You see what i'm saying? how are you going to solve this?
You might say "I'm going to be me and act naturally" but what if your natural you is an unattractive, unecperienced, fearful, boring guy?
Chances are that clueless guy, but funnier and more interesting than you will take her away and you'll be left with nothing
This is where conscious dating theory and practice comes in action.

It seems to me that it is you the one that believes in in that steriotipical love you accuse women to believe in.

You are basically asking to play a concert a the opera with little knowledge on how to touch a piano to make those beatiful melodies.
What about all the practice you must do and lessons you have to take?

Same with enlightenment: “Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi
 

[mr_engineer]

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

No one has ever said PA first goal is to find make you find the love of your life. This might be a product of it.
As i already said you do coscious dating so that you become more authentic, leading, decisive, pleasent and fearless man.
And this will make you good at attracting women, and you can't escape the attraction phase in relationship.

What happens when your girlfriend that you attract through this process, does some shadow-work, sheds some conditioning from movies, learns what 'love' really is and stops getting attracted in your manipulative ways? 

You need a different way of doing this than going to bars and clubs. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

You see what i'm saying? how are you going to solve this?
You might say "I'm going to be me and act naturally" but what if your natural you is an unattractive, unecperienced, fearful, boring guy?

Says who? PUAs?! Your friends? Women at bars and clubs? Feminists? Or your parents? 

Where does this distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' come from? 

Another big problem with it is that it conditions you to believe that 'this is wrong with you, this is what you have to improve, therefore, do as we say. Take our 1000-approach bootcamp'. It's a grift, from what I can tell. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

It seems to me that it is you the one that believes in in that steriotipical love you accuse women to believe in.

I mean, I don't see any other reason for something as silly as pick-up to work. It's bullshit social games. That has nothing to do with actual love. 

27 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

You are basically asking to play a concert a the opera with little knowledge on how to touch a piano to make those beatiful melodies.
What about all the practice you must do and lessons you have to take?

What practice?! Other animals don't have to practice this. Even our ancestors didn't. Where did this need to 'practice social-skills' or something even come from?! 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mr_engineer

[_Archangel_]

@mr_engineer

9 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What happens when your girlfriend that you attract through this process, does some shadow-work, sheds some conditioning from movies, learns what 'love' really is and stops getting attracted in your manipulative ways? 

You need a different way of doing this than going to bars and clubs. 

again, you just have a distorted picture of what pick up is. Most of is not shady. And it is not a trick.
No amount of shadow work can prevent you from being attracted to some one if you genuinly are.
Even if you meditate i think your dick still gets hard when you see a pair of boobs
Same with with girls when good traits of a man are shown to them.
You are not - tricking - anyone. You just learn how attraction work-

 

23 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

Says who? PUAs?! Your friends? Women at bars and clubs? Or your parents? 

Where does this distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' come from? 

Another big problem with it is that it conditions you to believe that 'this is wrong with you, this is what you have to improve, therefore, do as we say. Take our 1000-approach bootcamp'. It's a grift, from what I can tell. 

Bro, if in youre life you are constantly having great realtionship full of love and joy then you don't need to learn pick up.
Unfortunatley this is not the standard, and most poeple have never head a great relationship, let alone sustain it.

Of course like in all areas you find poeple that try to exploit you. This doesn't mean that because of this you must discredit a whole movement.
There are innumerable grifters in the spiritual community aswell. Does it mean that the whole of spirituality is a hoax?
 

32 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

I mean, I don't see any other reason for something as silly as pick-up to work. It's bullshit social games. That has nothing to do with actual love.

pick-up done right DOES work. i agree with you on the rest.

37 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

What practice?! Other animals don't have to practice this. Even our ancestors didn't. Where did this need to 'practice social-skills' or something even come from?! 

You might not believe it or not, but social skills can be improved and there are ways to do that, and poeple teach it, and it works.
What you said here can be applied everything then. You can eat the fish raw just took from the river, why cook it? The answer? Survival.

 

[The0Self]

Sleeping with her on the first date -- max second date -- is not likely to fall into the frame of the standard romance story wherein the man waits 10 dates before the woman "let's him." It's all about your frame. If you don't want a particular type of relationship, make it known, and leave if it doesn't turn out that way. Simple as that.

[Leo Gura]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:25 AM, mr_engineer said:

@Leo Gura What is the survival-value of 'taming a player'? Wouldn't she be much better off going with a nice-guy, in terms of survival? Cuz he'll be a good provider and stuff. 

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

[Hardkill]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You should replace the concept of "nice guy" with "weak guy", then it will make sense.

A nice/weak guy is incapable of protecting her when shit hits the fan. So she isn't attracted to that.

Being a good provider does not hit her on a visceral level, does not give her the masculine containment she craves.

Some dating experts/coaches say that a guy shouldn't be a nice guy or a bad guy, and instead be a good man.