Trans women are women! Why? Love and Truth that's why

[Yog]

@JoeVolcano  What if your kid watches a serial killer movie and they model after that. Do you intervene ?

Kids literally imitate/mimic/model everything, that is how they learn.

 

[Consept]

19 minutes ago, JoeVolcano said:

Let me be clear about this, the only unhealthy thing in the universe is the paradigm of human society. No other organism needs to be taught how to be healthy. And the only thing we can do to be healthy ourselves is abandon the unhealthy paradigm. Which is basically everything you think of as human society.

I think we maybe speaking about different things. But to speak to what youre saying, the more complex the organism the more teaching is required, for example chimpanzees, doplhins, Elephants etc, all have very complicated societies and they are taught how to navigate that society if only by seeing what their parents do or being reprimanded when they do something wrong. 

As humans we are very complex beings in comparison to other organisms on earth and ass such more direction is actually required not less, to avoid catastrophic consequences. Further its not just about survival or preventing bad things happening its how can we prepare ourselves to live the best life we can and give value to the world around us. 

I think in general there is a fallacy, its also in libertarian beliefs, that if everyone is just left to their own devices and is free everyone would be fine and happy. What you dont take into account is that our society now IS the product of everyone being left to their own devices, we have organised ourselves in such a way because its the current best way that we can conceive and agree on life to balance autonomy with organisation. 

I can guarantee you that kids that grow up with someone like the guy in the video as their father will have a very positive outlook on life and will most likely enjoy it as well as being productive. A lot of kids that grew up in hippie communes actually seek structure and go into careers like the army. Point is there has to be a balance between not suppressing kids but also giving them good role models and guidelines 

[Consept]

@JoeVolcano

I'm more thinking about how you can actually make this society as great as possible. I have had the thought of yes if everyone's consciousness rose and everyone chose freely the kind of personal transformation you're talking about then yes of course it would be amazing and everyone would be happy etc, but for me it's kinda waste of time as it's not going to happen anytime soon, further to that humans just don't evolve in that way.

Development is messy and takes long, as in thousands of years. Your perspective is that things could be much better, but that could and should always be the perspective throughout human history. Where we are now is built on what was down before and where will be in the future is built upon what we do today. Saying this society is terrible and not worth it because everyone is not fully conscious and aware is really absolving yourself of any responsibility. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:57 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

Privilege and oppression are relative to society.

Yes, even Bill Gates and Elon Musk is also oppressed and , relatively speaking.

That doesn't mean everyone else must cater to lower the price of their private jet fuel and their shitty concerns. That's just moronic, silly and even manipulative. Plenty of people have nothing real to worry about so they manufacture crap out of nothing.

If you want to have a serious discussion on oppression and take actionable steps to eliminate it, instead of crying about it, we must adopt an absolute scale of oppression.

Else it will lead to madness since everyone will cry oppression, thus the truly oppressed people don't have a voice to raise their concerns.

On 7/1/2022 at 8:57 PM, Gesundheit2 said:

Happiness is not an argument here because it's subjective, and more complicated than just food or clothing.

Happiness is independent of everything.

You can be happy no matter where you are and sad no matter how good your life is.  

[The_Searcher]

@Carl-Richard  I know it's an older topic, but I vibe with your opinions from a quick look. 

@BeHereNow The big question for me is why being trans is important? What identifying as a gender brings you? Trans people say that it's limiting to be assigned sex at birth. But isn't identifying as gender is limiting? To me trans goals would be not to identify, but free yourself from conformity of gender entirely. Where you don't put such importance on gender and allow yourself to express however you want. To me it seems like trans people don't want to conform but gets trapped in another conformity(of their own ideology). This what I cannot understand about trans fundamentally.

[Arcangelo]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:24 AM, Zeroguy said:

Question is simple .Trans women are women.

Answer is also simple : no they are not.

I agree 100%

 

Trans women are women!

I respectfully disagree.

 

[Razard86]

All separation is imaginary. 

1. Demonizing others and blaming them for not agreeing with you, is the same thing as complaining about discrimination. Think about it, you are mad at them for not agreeing with you, so you call them a slur like phobic, racist, whatever. So they then get mad for you calling them that and they call you some slur. So both parties are engaging in the same situation demonizing each other because they disagree. 

2. You need to understand that disagreement is normal, you disagree with your self (have conflicting thoughts, fears, and doubt) but yet you expect for that to be any different when you deal with people? Notice that makes no sense.

3. Nobody triggers you, YOU trigger you. Triggering happens when something bothers you. The cold can bother one man, and be heaven for another. Its a personal problem that needs to be worked through. As long as you blame outside forces for what you create, you will live in hell a hell you have created for yourself. If you want to be Satan and torment yourself be my guest you have that right. But only you are responsible for your feelings NOBODY else. 

[Ramu]

@BeHereNow Trans women are not real women.  Gender is determined by chromosomes.  Did you take biology in high school?

[Carl-Richard]

38 minutes ago, BenG said:

It’s actually not. You misunderstand what gender is. It has nothing to do with biology.

Oxford Languages

Gender: either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

World health organization

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other.

Are you a woman if you inhabit the norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman? 

[Ramu]

@BenG yet a woman is a woman (xx). Man (xy).  Hence a man who chops his penis off and wears a dress is not a woman.  It's ridiculous.  Then a man will say, but I feel like a woman.  But how can a man know what it's like to be a woman???  He's a man!!!  That's why he'll never know!!

[Ramu]

@Carl-Richardthere are also not 10 or 15 genders.  It's man or woman.  You get to be one or the other...not some other gender you made up in make believe time....this whole movement is absurd.

[Carl-Richard]

46 minutes ago, BenG said:

For practical purposes, I think that definition is much better than the bio-essentialist definition.

But it still doesn't work in every case, because... who gets to decide what the norms, behaviors and roles associated with being a woman actually are? Who associates traits with being some particular identity? And whose association is valid?

I think the best definitions are the most restrictive ones. The inclusion sentiment boils down to social activism, not the soundness of definitions.

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, BenG said:

So, the question I would ask is this: What’s the point of a restrictive definition if it’s not accurate? 

If I were a girl and this guy asked me out and then invited me home and took his clothes off, I would be like "hang on..." That's how accurate the definition is.

[Danioover9000]

   So, what has happened while I was away from this thread? Have we made any grounds, where do we agree on now?

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, BenG said:

Hahaha ???

Well, at least I know where we stand when you need to make up unrealistic hypotheticals just so you can cling to any ground you might have had in this discussion. 

peace, bro 

I don't think having sex is an unrealistic hypothetical, but you do you.

[Scholar]

One of the problems with the way these conversation goes is that they basically are just about fighting for labels, We aren't discussing what something means, we are discussing what we can use the word "woman" for.

In the end, everyone understands the differences between a trans woman and a woman. We can both label them the same thing, but we will still understand the difference. It seems to me that a lot of the fight about the label is an attempt to delude away the differences. If we call them the same thing, it must mean they are the same thing!

But that's not the case. Trans people will still have a certain set of genitalia, that maybe they made a surgeon change into something that resembles another genitalia. Whether or not we call that being a woman does not change that underlying reality.

 

So really, the game is about the label, and the label is so powerful because we have revolved entire identities around them. Instead of moving society away from the attachment to these labels and constructs, we give them more power, we attach ourselves more, and revolve our entire identity around a simple label.

[Bobby_2021]

12 hours ago, BenG said:

This guy has xx chromosomes and a female reproductive system.

Now, do your best to hold a straight face while you say (out loud) that he’s a woman… I bet you can’t do it, right? And if you can, I don’t even know what to say to you.

So, the question I would ask is this: What’s the point of a restrictive definition if it’s not accurate? And if we aren’t concerned about the accuracy of definitions, then what do you mean by soundness, and why should I place it above accuracy?

Is anybody really supposed to care about what’s theoretically sound if it doesn’t accurately describe reality? That would be prioritizing theory over truth. 

If you want an accurate definition, you need to allow a detailed study and it's possible to accomodate for the edge cases quite accurately. That's what scientists devote their entire life into.

In the case of the man you have shown above you don't have enough information about his/her biology, genitalia, any complications or mishaps at birth etc 

You have to provide all such information to have an accurate definition, which is absolutely possible, biologically and scientifically.

You are not really undermining definitions here. 

[Carl-Richard]

41 minutes ago, BenG said:

“huhh?? But how does sex work? Them parts don’t fit together!” You sound like my homophonic grandpa.

Unless you’re planning to have sex with a transgender person (they’d definitely tell you first) you don’t need to worry your little head about it, buddy.

Ok.

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, BenG said:

Now, do your best to hold a straight face while you say (out loud) that he’s a woman…

That's because he is a trans-man. We don't have to have all of these things fit into the same category.

The point @Carl-Richard is trying to make is that both the category of man and woman do not fit here. As you pointed out, people would definitely not consider this person a woman. On the other hand, Carl correctly pointed out that if individuals would see their genitalia, they would also not consider this individual a man.

Well, it happens that there is a perfect label for this kind of individual! A trans-man. Someone who was born a woman and transitioned to become more aligned with the characterisitics of a man. Viola, no confusion, everyone is happy!

Why the need to collapse the concept of trans-man and man? Why is that so important? The difference will always be there, whether you label it the same or not.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Scholar

[Scholar]

Just now, BenG said:

Because a trans-man is a man. That’s the point of the “man” part. A cis-man is also a man.. see? Both men.

The trans prefix doesn’t negate the “man” part.

That depends on how you construct the categories. You can't say one or the other thing is the case, because these categories are socially constructed. If you want to advocate for new categories, then do that. But don't pretend like you are describing reality. All we are doing is creating labels.