SQAAD

How There is No Difference Between Real and Imaginary?

74 posts in this topic

@nistake 

25 minutes ago, nistake said:

Trying to understand this by using language, logic and rationality is quite an uphill battle. No amount of intellectual answers from others are gonna satisfy you. Only direct experience. And by direct experience, I don't mean language, logic and rationality.

Denying differences goes contrary to my direct experience. It is not a matter of logic. If someone sees or experiences no obvious difference between torture and eating ice cream then i would expect a radically different way of life lol.

If i take heroin or fentanyl, i might not experience an obvious difference between eating an icecream and getting tortured. That is a valid point too.  But when you come off the heroin, lets have the same conversation again. Lets run the 'experiement' and see whats up.

Edited by SQAAD

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Speaking of truth, there is no difference between what we call reality and imagination. This can be directly observed through wise and foolish actions.

However, as far as language goes. It is a big difference between reality and imagination when it comes to actual consequences of actions, depending from what frame of mind you believe you are acting from.

To be aware of language as a way to merely make distinctions. Is to acknowledge the certain self-imposed limits that language brings with it. And stil be able to utilize language in a way that matters within that self-imposed limit.

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@ZzzleepingBear

24 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Speaking of truth, there is no difference between what we call reality and imagination. This can be directly observed through wise and foolish actions.

 

The opposite can be directly observed. Take an imaginary butcher knife and try to cut your tongue. Now do the same with a real butcher knife. That is the difference right there. That is direct experience right there. That is truth right there.

What no difference are you talking about?

If you mean that both the imaginary knife and the real one are made of Consciousness, then ok with that.

Edited by SQAAD

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It is exactly as when you are dreaming at night. Period.

 

You perceive different objects, pain and pleasure as if they were real, but they are made of the same substance: consciousness of imaginary distinctions

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@SQAAD Noone is suggesting there are no apparent differences.

The point is that no matter how much the "real" knife hurts the character, you are not the character.

Actually any identification with the character involves suffering. Not just pain, but pleasure too involves suffering. Pleasure is fleeting, is a poor facsimile of total unity and thus leads to wanting.

Edited by axiom

All paths lead to a deeper unreality.

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Relative to human consciousness, differences exist.

Relative to high non-dual consciousness, differences don't exist.

47 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

 

The opposite can be directly observed. Take an imaginary butcher knife and try to cut your tongue. Now do the same with a real butcher knife. That is the difference right there.

Relative to a high state of consciousness, there is also no difference between these two scenarios. 

50 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

If you mean that both the imaginary knife and the real one are made of Consciousness, then ok with that.

Yes, it's all consciousness, it's all the same.

Differences only exist once you add them with your mind. And then differences are true and real relative to that state.

But they are not Absolutely true, because when you remove that mental activity and increase your state of consciousness, then there will no longer be a difference. 

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1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

@ZzzleepingBear

The opposite can be directly observed. Take an imaginary butcher knife and try to cut your tongue. Now do the same with a real butcher knife. That is the difference right there. That is direct experience right there. That is truth right there.

What no difference are you talking about?

If you mean that both the imaginary knife and the real one are made of Consciousness, then ok with that.

There is no difference between reality and imagination as long as we don't care to make any distiction between what is wise or foolishness. Or in other words, if we simply don't care what is real or not.

How ever.

I haven't made it clear enough, but I am personally in full agreement with your example. There is a actual difference within the example you gave, since I also care about meaning that words in the relative sense serve.

To take a real butcher knife and cut your tongue would be foolish for obvious reasons that we both clearly acknowledge.

With my first statement, I simply tried to showcase how nonsensical it is to persistently argue that everything is consciousnes, when that has already been established and understood by most people in here.

Since I now admit that I believe that there is a important difference at play regarding distiction between reality and imagination, I can only expect other to want to correct that as to say "But you only imagine any distinctions". Yes, I get that. You basically have to show the majority here the absolute absurdity that one is left with, if we constantly revert back to a never ending argument that all is consciousness everytime we find our selves in any minor disagrement of any kind. All things is consciousness, that is clear. But language will always be a dividing tool, that also has to be taken into consideration if there is any interest to establish coherent meaning through words.

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I think there is an actual problem distinguishing reality from imagination. The example of the lion and the knife are useless because they weren't actuality imagined to be real, they are supposed to be only an example within the dream. But...take something you believe could be "real" in your "real"/"dream" life and keep imagining it. The lines will blurrr. I talk from experience. The veil is so thin, if there is any. If you imagine it is "real", so it will, if you imagine it is not, it will not. Sometimes even a very naive act of imagination can become tastable, "real" or "stable".

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According to non-duality, there both is and isn't a difference between reality and imagination. It's a mistake to only say that there is a difference, and it's also a mistake to only say that there isn't.

But that's just non-duality. And it's true and false at the same time, according to itself.


Foolish until proven other-wise ;)

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10 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

According to non-duality, there both is and isn't a difference between reality and imagination. It's a mistake to only say that there is a difference, and it's also a mistake to only say that there isn't.

But that's just non-duality. And it's true and false at the same time, according to itself.

Yes. I see your point ??

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2 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

According to non-duality, there both is and isn't a difference between reality and imagination. It's a mistake to only say that there is a difference, and it's also a mistake to only say that there isn't.

But that's just non-duality. And it's true and false at the same time, according to itself.

This is a great example. And non-duality is perfect for reminding us of the pardoxical nature of our thoughts and use of language.

The core issue as I see (within this forum in particular). And why I personally bearly see any point in bringing up something like non-duality in for discussion in the first place.  Is that I have a sneaky suspicion that plenty of forum users here will be tempted to nullify this non-duality example by accusing it for "being imaginary fairy tales.."

When all words are being scrutinized and reduced down to fall under the lable imagination. Then there are simply no ground for even relative truth to be spoken about in a sincere way. Since any sentence at any point in time, can be adressed as to be merely imaginary as if that would be helpful in every on going discussion at any time possible. There certainly are times when you may want to discuss the absoluteness, where as consciousness is the final boss of any ultimate claims.

Disagreements in and of itself are fine. But when disagreements on how language is supposed to be used or not, that needs to be properly adressed by finding the common ground. Or otherwise any attempts for communication will be devoid of rules and meaning altogheter. And that is what I see happen alot in the spiritual section here. But maybe that's just me idk.

 

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On 5/16/2022 at 3:40 PM, SQAAD said:

Leo says that there is no difference between real and unreal, real and illusion. What does that mean though , i don't understand.

If i imagine a lion walking in my room right now, that is imaginary. It stops being after i stop imagining it. Also there is no possibility that this lion could ever hurt me. 

But my room for example, never goes away unless i leave from it. That is a huge difference right there between real and imaginary.

This distinction about real vs imaginary can go into dangerous territories because you can believe whatever fantasies, imaginations you like this way. Surely the substance of reality can be one thing but still there is a huge difference between actual things and pure fantasies/delusions. 

If it weren't such a difference we would all end up in insane asylyms.

 

On 5/17/2022 at 1:11 AM, SQAAD said:

@Leo Gura

The difference exists though. It does not matter if you call iilt imaginary or not. It exists and thats the bottom line. I can stop imagining a lion or whatever stuff in my head. But good luck stop imagining actual reality.

There is a huge difference between a lion that i imagine in my head that can't hurt me and an actual lion that will eat me live.

That difference between actuality vs fantasy exists. If you call it an imaginary difference, it is the same as calling it as real difference.

Blurring this distinction and discarding this difference goes into super dangerous territories.

When you truly awaken by definition you are insane. The fact that you are not insane is why you cannot tell the difference. You mistake logic for intelligence, logic is linked to memory. To think outside the box....you have to be insane. You have to consider things that others think is crazy. Every great invention was created by someone insane, insanity and creativity are the same thing, they defy logic.

You have accepted beliefs, the only reason you do not understand what we are saying is because you are afraid to question your beliefs. So you latch on for dear life and that is why you cannot understand. This is why in Leo's videos he tells you to throw away your beliefs...its an exercise to find the truth. If you are not willing to test your beliefs...THEN YOU KNOW NOTHING. All you know is what OTHERS told you. Have you really investigated these answers for yourself? I did...and I was able to confirm that everything is my imagination.

If you take a psychedelic...and drop all your beliefs and experience what you experience instead of projecting onto the experience....you will realize that everything you interact with is imaginary. The funny thing is.. EVEN YOUR BRAIN IS IMAGINARY!!!


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

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20 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

The core issue as I see (within this forum in particular). And why I personally bearly see any point in bringing up something like non-duality in for discussion in the first place.  Is that I have a sneaky suspicion that plenty of forum users here will be tempted to nullify this non-duality example by accusing it for "being imaginary fairy tales.."

When all words are being scrutinized and reduced down to fall under the lable imagination. Then there are simply no ground for even relative truth to be spoken about in a sincere way. Since any sentence at any point in time, can be adressed as to be merely imaginary as if that would be helpful in every on going discussion at any time possible. There certainly are times when you may want to discuss the absoluteness, where as consciousness is the final boss of any ultimate claims.

Disagreements in and of itself are fine. But when disagreements on how language is supposed to be used or not, that needs to be properly adressed by finding the common ground. Or otherwise any attempts for communication will be devoid of rules and meaning altogheter. And that is what I see happen alot in the spiritual section here. But maybe that's just me idk.

Not just you, this is a really fair critique.

Always reducing everything just to "imagination" have its own limits, and sometimes doesn't really make any sense to bring it up in conversations, where the question doesn't necessarily points to anything absolute, but requires a relative answer.

By reducing everything down to just imagination we are losing all the nuances , and the questioner won't be able to make sense of our answers.  Asking for definitions or giving our own definitions from the get go can really help to make the conversations more fruiteful and productive. I think that most of the misunderstanding in this forum comes from the fact, that we don't use the same words the same way and we give different meanings to different words.

The other big problem i see is the content vs structure problem. Some people ask about a problem or question that is related to a content, and the answer that will be given will be structure related. This is okay, when someone can give an advice to a person to find the root cause to a problem, but in most cases the advice won't be usable at all because that particular person either craving for attention and not for answer to solve the problem or that person craves for a usable productive answer that can be utilized, and not for answers like "you just imagining your problems" or "just wake up and you won't give any fucks anymore".

A newbie who comes here, will use the word 'imagination' a lot differently than how we use it. Even when they hear the word 'consciousness' they don't necessarily refer to the same thing as we do.

Most of our convos should start setting/clearing the foundation up , and then we can start to debate or have conversations but if we miss that, there is a high chance that we will misunderstand each other even though we might agree about everything or on most things.

 

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4 hours ago, Fernanda said:

I think there is an actual problem distinguishing reality from imagination. The example of the lion and the knife are useless because they weren't actuality imagined to be real, they are supposed to be only an example within the dream. But...take something you believe could be "real" in your "real"/"dream" life and keep imagining it. The lines will blurrr. I talk from experience. The veil is so thin, if there is any. If you imagine it is "real", so it will, if you imagine it is not, it will not. Sometimes even a very naive act of imagination can become tastable, "real" or "stable".

Exactly, I'm glad you noticed this. When your consciousness is high enough....you make your imagination real. This is something they do not understand...they think we are saying word games....we literally mean you could imagine a Lion in your room and if you believe that Lion to be real... IT WILL BE REAL.


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

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Let me explain this to you so you can understand. You are dreaming a dream, we all are.  While dreaming your individual dream, you have the ability to interact with our dream. When I enter your dream, you are imagining me, and when I interact with you, I am imagining you. So we imagine each other. But you do not understand what we mean when we say imagine....because you think we mean your brain is doing it. Your brain is ALSO being imagined. When we say you are consciousness it can get confusing so I will use the word awareness. ALL YOU ARE IS AWARNESS. That's it. Your not a physical being, your not a thought, an emotion, etc. You are just AWARENESS.

When you can wrap your head around the fact that you are just awareness...then real and imagination is the same thing. You are not your body, so what happens to the body is just imagination. It FEELS real because you create pain!! And the amount of pain you experience is based on how attached you are to the body. I recently got into a car accident and my attachment to my body was LOOSE, it stopped feeling like my body and just some thing I was dragging around. I also could BARELY feel pain. It took awhile for my body to heal and I became aware it felt like that because my body was close to DEATH. If your body gets close to death.....you realize for the first time in your direct experience....that your body is not you and you are not even physical but just awareness itself. So stop trying to figure it out...you cannot without direct experience. Go run some tests if you want to find the truth. Leo is just a guide.... you have to take the steps yourself.

Edited by Razard86

The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

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1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Exactly, I'm glad you noticed this. When your consciousness is high enough....you make your imagination real. This is something they do not understand...they think we are saying word games....we literally mean you could imagine a Lion in your room and if you believe that Lion to be real... IT WILL BE REAL.

Yes, I feel amazingly insane:)

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Imagination is required for reality to appear, sanity is required to differentiate the state of imagined reality and fantasy.

 

Funny thing is, when you in your sanity bring about reality, you do not have to understand that you are imagining it.

 

Reality is there whether you in your imagination of it are aware that you do imagine it, imagination must therefore be differentiated from its faculty, as only then can two people of differing views hope to say something meaningful in relation to the other on this topic.

 

The faculty of imagination is imposed on the empirical world of senses, as well as in the inner mind. When this distinction collapses, then and only then will it be true by revelation that reality is imagined, even the most viscous defender of material dualism can comprehend the distinction phrased like this.

 

The utmost absurd thing is having lived a life in which the reality seemed totally different from imagination, and yet impose ones own revelation of that not being the case onto the very character of other peoples state of consciousness and the logical structure of language itself as others use it.


"We do not need to be shoemakers to know if our shoes fit, and just as little have we any need to be professionals to acquire knowledge of matters of universal interest."  -Hegel

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Formed reality is the imagination of differences. You create "reality" by holding one thing as distinct from another. These are divisions in consciousness your mind is making, even though you are not yet conscious of how your mind is doing this. This is otherwise known as dreaming.

It's not complicated.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Yeah the mind splits reality up into moments or segments in an attempt to digest what's being perceived.... otherwise apparent reality would seem like one big long f****** psychedelic trip.

If that wasn't the case you'd probably go insane within weeks.


“Everything is honoured, but nothing matters.” — Eckhart Tolle.

"I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." -- Rumi

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I like Abraham Hicks' explanation of the process of how thoughts and imaginations are turning to things, how, in their terms, vibration is turning to thought, to imagination, and to what we call "the physical reality". It basically is the idea that steam and water and ice are all H2O, but the difference is their levels, in a sense, of densities. 

Edited by Vibroverse

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