Leo featured in suicide cult article

[Dumuzzi]

A humble suggestion:

Perhaps mixing spirituality with psychedelics is not a great idea after all.

Also, this place seems to attract a lot of desperate, suicidal youth. Some will undoubtedly off themselves, no matter what we might try to do about it. On the other hand, the unique vulnerability of many of the types of people that visit here should be taken into consideration when dishing out advice.

In other words, are we sure, that giving generic advice is really all that useful if we don't know the background of the person that heeds it?

There is also a karmic load that attaches itself to handing out spiritual advice without discernment. I wonder if Leo may have attracted a much larger karmic load by making his videos and courses than he might realise?

I don't know the answer to any of the above questions and dilemmas, but they are worth pondering. I should note that I have also been guilty of giving out indiscriminate advice to all and sundry before and I am beginning to regret it. Who knows how much harm I might have caused that way, without intending it?

The karmic load would still be attached to my actions, no matter how good my intentions may have been. I think there is a reason that in times gone, teachers guided their students by getting to know them personally, often over many years. This element seems to be completely missing in the way we interact with each other over the internet and that might very well be detrimental. 

[Juan]

@Jahmaine Ok.??

[History]

This was known for years outside of this forum. This article brings old news to the mainstream, that's it.

Everybody knows that Leo is pushing people to off themselves. He even said it himself that if he wanted he could have 100's of bodies by now. But he does have 100's of bodies, they're just not tied to him. Tons of people died of 5-meO-DMT and other hardcore drugs he pushes in his videos.

Not to mention his nihilistic approach and the hyper-glorification of death.

Leo kills through videos, he's a new-age serial killer.

[Thought Art]

27 minutes ago, History said:

This was known for years outside of this forum. This article brings old news to the mainstream, that's it.

Everybody knows that Leo is pushing people to off themselves. He even said it himself that if he wanted he could have 100's of bodies by now. But he does have 100's of bodies, they're just not tied to him. Tons of people died of 5-meO-DMT and other hardcore drugs he pushes in his videos.

Not to mention his nihilistic approach and the hyper-glorification of death.

Leo kills through videos, he's a new-age serial killer.

? There’s only 2 reported deaths from 5meo…  important not to lie about things when there is hard data out there. 

Leo taught me to honour my life lol 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Thought Art

[mandyjw]

On 3/5/2022 at 10:33 PM, Leo Gura said:

That's actually not the definition of a cult. Go read the books on my book list about what really defines a cult. Or watch my video: Cult Psychology - Part 1 where I give an exhaustive definition.

Don't go by the dictionary and accept commonly used definition, watch my video on cults where I educate MY community about what a cult is. 

Uhmm.... 

 

Uhmmm...

Uhmmm...

Red flag much? 

[Thought Art]

13 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Don't go by the dictionary and accept commonly used definition, watch my video on cults where I educate MY community about what a cult is. 

Uhmm.... 

 

Uhmmm...

Uhmmm...

Red flag much? 

Lol true

Besides Leo’s video it would be worthwhile reading books by cult experts 

[mandyjw]

@Thought Art Leo is in the business of selling information and knowledge, which he does by trying to make people feel like they are inept idiots in need of it. It's the same pattern again and again. 

What's funny is that enlightenment is NOT knowledge. Once misunderstanding is seen to be misunderstanding, it's no longer misunderstanding. There is no special knowledge to be obtained, bought or sold. You can sell someone information about how to fix something, but you can't sell them information on how to fix what isn't broken. Or maybe you CAN but it won't result in any improvement. 

 

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Thought Art Leo is in the business of selling information and knowledge, which he does by trying to make people feel like they are inept idiots in need of it. It's the same pattern again and again. 

That's the universal definition of teaching. And it's not exclusive to Leo. We learn from those who are farther down the path, whichever path it might be. It's how we connect and develop.

Learning is a natural instinct. Even if you don't deliberately teach your children, they will try to copy you. And if they don't copy you, they will copy someone/something else.

Quote

What's funny is that enlightenment is NOT knowledge. Once misunderstanding is seen to be misunderstanding, it's no longer misunderstanding. There is no special knowledge to be obtained, bought or sold. You can sell someone information about how to fix something, but you can't sell them information on how to fix what isn't broken. Or maybe you CAN but it won't result in any improvement.

Lol. Are you for real, Mandy? Cuz you seem to be doing exactly the same thing you're denouncing.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[zurew]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Don't go by the dictionary and accept commonly used definition, watch my video on cults where I educate MY community about what a cult is. 

Uhmm.... 

 

Uhmmm...

Uhmmm...

Red flag much? 

So according to the definition you use, it seems like actualized.org is a cult. What has to be changed for actualized.org to not be a cult anymore? Please be specific about it, the more specific the critiques are, the better.

[Inliytened1]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:15 AM, AdeptusPsychonautica said:

@Leo Gura 



I have been ultra-specific about the things you have said I take issue with, in all cases I have provided quotes straight from the horses mouth of you actually saying them, and none of them was related to any particular teaching. In reality what these criticisms were leveled at was your delusional utterances around abilities you gained from taking 5 MEO DMT, and those criticisms have held up AMAZINGLY well.

 

Just like you state that Leo cannot know your own subjective spiritual experiences - by the same token you cannot know his.  So if you had mystical experiences in the past you would also know it is premature to assume that during is DMT trip he did not become fully God and have these abilities.   This is why you we felt your criticisms came more from a lack of understanding of spirituality and what is possible.  The criticisms seemed rather to make a mockery of things rather than to question it objectively.  This is probably why Leo doesn't take you as a serious critic.    Anyone who had had mystical experiences and come back and talked to "normies" about them is normally greeted with "your insane! Or you sound like a prophet!"  I know from direct experience

 

[Thought Art]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Thought Art Leo is in the business of selling information and knowledge, which he does by trying to make people feel like they are inept idiots in need of it. It's the same pattern again and again. 

What's funny is that enlightenment is NOT knowledge. Once misunderstanding is seen to be misunderstanding, it's no longer misunderstanding. There is no special knowledge to be obtained, bought or sold. You can sell someone information about how to fix something, but you can't sell them information on how to fix what isn't broken. Or maybe you CAN but it won't result in any improvement. 

 

Well, that’s how you interpret it. I personally feel empowered by what he’s taught me. 
 

I mean… humans do require education.
 

Not knowing, or recognizing how little you know is a sign of wisdom also. 

he didn’t force anyone to watch his videos ahah… I personally have fun with the work though it’s very challenging and confusing at times. It’s been a wild ride!
 

Yeah, and the meditation, psychedelics , yoga practices etc are practices that go beyond “knowledge” or… this sort of intellectual knowledge commonly used in westerns knowing. Very grateful for these teachings as they lead me to Qigong which has helped me generate an inner sweetness and helped me purge a lot of my anger and chronic pain. 
 

See, I learn from Leo but plenty of other sources. I’ll outgrow his work, but it’s a booster or a really good map IMO. Of course limited. 
 

…He does know a lot of things you don’t know Mandy. Be humble. 
 

we all know things that others don’t. 

I also just think it’s false that nothings broken for a lot of people.  I mean just look around you. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Just like you state that Leo cannot know your own subjective spiritual experiences - by the same token you cannot know his.  So if you had mystical experiences in the past you would also know it is premature to assume that during is DMT trip he did not become fully God and have these abilities.   This is why you we felt your criticisms came more from a lack of understanding of spirituality and what is possible.  The criticisms seemed rather to make a mockery of things rather than to question it objectively.  This is probably why Leo doesn't take you as a serious critic.    Anyone who had had mystical experiences and come back and talked to "normies" about them is normally greeted with "your insane! Or you sound like a prophet!"  I know from direct experience

 

Nah, he is rightfully skeptics. We all should be. Leo is in the trenches of his work and will be wrong sometimes right sometimes.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Nah, he is rightfully skeptics. We all should be. Leo is in the trenches of his work and will be wrong sometimes right sometimes.

Yes it is fine to be skeptic.  This work is so radical that one should expect a decent amoint of criticism...It's just that @AdeptusPsychonauticaseems a bit hypocritical here.  He claims Leo cannot know his own subjective experiences but then assumed Leo's subjective experience was delusional.   You see? 

He is not a rationalist critic or materialist, or so he claims.  He is open to other paradigms.

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Nah, he is rightfully skeptics. We all should be. Leo is in the trenches of his work and will be wrong sometimes right sometimes.

What's hard here is that, for example in an academic field there are commonly agreed upon standards and you need to get through those first to be able to test you hypothesis and ideas. But in the spiritual field you can't assume any standards so all the critique that you recieve can be dismissed rightfully or not rightfully. So how would a good critique would even look like, i don't know, its very hard and tricky in my opinion.

Becuase you can always say, that you haven't got there yet. Or that you can test in on your own. There are a lot of spiritual teachers out there, and it doesn't seem like that there is an agreement everywhere and in every direction.

So basically because no one can hold anyone accountable, anyone can claim anything and basically no one can attack anyone's ideas about anything in the spiritual field. And basically anything can be dismissed according to that logic. Basically you can't ground spirituality in anything, because it is the ground itself. I think the main problem lies here.

Edited March 8, 2022 by zurew

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

What's hard here is that, for example in an acadamic field their are commonly agreed upon standards and you need to get through those first to be able to test you hypothesis and ideas. But in the spiritual field you can't assume any standards so all the critique that you recieve can be dismissed rightfully or not rightfully. So how would a good critique would even look like, i don't know, its very hard and tricky in my opinion.

 

That's why Leo prefers to speak with more open minded critics such as Curt.  With spirituality you have to be open to anything.  A materialistic critic is just going to shut you down as a crazy person so it's almost futile to explain thi gs to them.  You can spend some time on it but it may not be worth it to you.  Or at least they would have to be willing to hear your POV 

[Thought Art]

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

What's hard here is that, for example in an acadamic field their are commonly agreed upon standards and you need to get through those first to be able to test you hypothesis and ideas. But in the spiritual field you can't assume any standards so all the critique that you recieve can be dismissed rightfully or not rightfully. So how would a good critique would even look like, i don't know, its very hard and tricky in my opinion.

Becuase you can always say, that you haven't got there yet. Or that you can test in on your own. There are a lot of spiritual teachers out there, and it doesn't seem like that there is an agreement everywhere and in every direction.

So basically because no one can hold anyone accountable, anyone can claim anything and basically no one can attack anyone's ideas about anything in the spiritual field. And basically anything can be dismissed according to that logic. Basically you can't ground spirituality in anything, because it is the ground itself. I think the main problem lies here.

What you are saying is right in a certain perspective. But, I think that you can ground it in direct experience. There’s a lot of information out there and a lot of spiritual practices are actually rather grounded. Taoism for one..
 

@Inliytened1 Yes, that is hypocritical. (Side note I is understand hypocrisy is part of survival and relativism.) I like the Rob is a critic.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Thought Art

[zurew]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

A materialistic critic is just going to shut you down as a crazy person so it's almost futile to explain thi gs to them.  You can spend some time on it but it may not be worth it to you.  Or at least they would have to be willing to hear your POV 

Yes, i agree with that. If someone is not even open to use different kind of epistemology to ground his/her worldview, then the whole discussion is a waste of time. And I agree with Leo on that, his work first need to be deeply studied before anyone tries to critique it.

[Thought Art]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes, i agree with that. If someone is not even open to use different kind of epistemology to ground his/her worldview, then the whole discussion is a waste of time. And I agree with Leo on that, his work first need to be deeply studied before anyone tries to critique it.

And the problem with that is 100s or 1000s of hours people don’t have or want to spend 

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes, i agree with that. If someone is not even open to use different kind of epistemology to ground his/her worldview, then the whole discussion is a waste of time. And I agree with Leo on that, his work first need to be deeply studied before anyone tries to critique it.

@zurew @Thought Art and again im not saying Adeptus has any ill intentions with his ciriticsm.  Im giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is concerned for youth who stumble onto the community and the community as a whole.   But as @zurew mentions, cirtiquing spirituality takes a nuanced approach.  I think he needs work on his approach.  That's just a little constructive criticism for him

 

[Thought Art]

@Inliytened1 Yeah,  I like adeptus and enjoy his videos. But, we don’t see eye to eye on things. 
 

I look at people like facts of nature. It’s not for me to change them. 
 

I personally think his reaction is he is afraid of losing his own mind from tripping so he holds extra right to consensus reality. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Thought Art