The root of all suffering and joy

[The0Self]

Another root is thinking (even subconsciously) that you have some idea of how long the currently experienced sensation will last, whether it’s pleasant or unpleasant.

[Nthnl]

11 hours ago, krockerman said:

Desire, 

desire is the fundemental root of all suffering and joy. @Leo Gura

and everyone else here are right that if you want to get rid of your suffering you should get rid of your desire because the fundamental definition of suffering is desires that is unfurfilled, But anyone here that don’t think getting rid of your desires is necessary is also right because getting rid of your desires means getting rid of your joy. Because the definition of joy is a fulfilled desire. 

 

Joy can come from a magnitude of things. Nor is all desire negative. For example, you could desire to not be bound by desire. I find it to not be so black and white.

[krockerman]

4 hours ago, Nthnl said:

Joy can come from a magnitude of things. Nor is all desire negative. For example, you could desire to not be bound by desire. I find it to not be so black and white.

Where can you experince joy that has fundementaly no form of desire at all?

[Thestarguitarist14]

13 minutes ago, krockerman said:

Where can you experince joy that has fundementaly no form of desire at all?

When you are in being.

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, krockerman said:

What are you talking about? When I was 5 year old I had losts of desires, playing with toys, friends, going to waterparks etc and I can tell you from first hand experince that those desires bringed me alot of joy.

I'm talking about of something obvious.  You had a lot of desires because we grow in a sick society where the ego is glorified, but when you had 5 years old you aren't still completely corrupted so you still live in the joy. If you were growed 15000 years ago sure you hadn't so much desires but much more joy, even if you lived in a cave with 20 persons. Desires feed the ego, and don't bring any happynes. Of course you would have still desires, but only some, there d be place for the joy. More simple=more joy 

[krockerman]

5 hours ago, Thestarguitarist14 said:

When you are in being.

Well still no because if you don’t fundamentaly desire to be in being you won’t be able to enjoy it while you experince it. 
 

same with playing with toys. If you don’t desire to play with toys while you are playing with toys while you are playing with goys you are not gonna enjoy it. Pure and simple. You seem to have a narrow view of desires and do not see just how fundamentaly important they are. I have spoken to a man who pretty much got rid of all of his desires. He told me it was like being a dead man walking. He did not even crave life. Sure he did not suffer at all but he Also did not enjoy anything. In absolute infinity there are places with so much beauty and joy that you can’t even imagine it. What would happen if you visited the place with no desires at all? You would not enjoy any of it, it would make no difference to you than being scorched or tortured 

 

If you have no desire nothing will excite you, nothing will make you happy but ofc nothing will hurt you either. Having Desires and having no desires are both double edge swords 

Edited November 3, 2020 by krockerman

[krockerman]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'm talking about of something obvious.  You had a lot of desires because we grow in a sick society where the ego is glorified, but when you had 5 years old you aren't still completely corrupted so you still live in the joy. If you were growed 15000 years ago sure you hadn't so much desires but much more joy, even if you lived in a cave with 20 persons. Desires feed the ego, and don't bring any happynes. Of course you would have still desires, but only some, there d be place for the joy. More simple=more joy 

I agree that having a few desires that are important for your soul is better than having a lot of shallow ones. Even saying that you want simpleness is a desire.
 

You can’t escape it no matter what. You may desire to experience a state of mind that feels very desireless but it’s still not desireless just like voids are not nothing. They only seem like they are nothing but they are not actually nothing

[Moksha]

Dark Night of the Soul = Closing your eyes to what is not.

Enlightenment = Opening your eyes to what is.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Moksha

[SpiritualAwakening]

On 11/2/2020 at 11:39 PM, krockerman said:

Good point. Needs are still desires. Desiers comes in all shapes and sizes. Leo has even said that you should have a life of wants not needs. But I don’t think it is a black or white thing. A need does not have to cause major suffering.

Btw Leo has said that love is desire. So even big man Leo does not disagree with me fundamentaly 

There are fundamental needs, Food, shelter, defecating and urinating etc. These do not belong in the field of desire, they are necessities because if you wait long enough it will be impossible to not react to these needs. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by SpiritualAwakening

[Nahm]

On 11/2/2020 at 10:07 AM, krockerman said:

desire is the fundemental root of all suffering and joy.

What is the fundamental root of desire?

[captainamerica]

@Nahm

17 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What is the fundamental root of desire?

What is it? 

[SpiritualAwakening]

On 12/19/2020 at 2:40 PM, Nahm said:

What is the fundamental root of desire?

experience > sensation > memory > movement of thought creating a desire from that memory >  you acting on that desire.

[Moksha]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:58 AM, captainamerica said:

What is it? 

The root of desire is the misunderstanding that something outside of yourself can bring you permanence. The death of desire is the direct realization that you are already infinitely abundant.

Words of the Buddha, which I was pondering this morning:

Even a shower of gold cannot quench the passions. They are wise who know that passions are passing and bring pain in their wake.

[Breakingthewall]

the root of desire is the need for survival. Ending the desire occurs only when you transcend the ego and a) you become aware that everything that happens is premeditated in some way and b) you see the possibility of giving your life possible. What I still can't see is where the motivation to act if there is no desire come from. I guess without desire there is no action.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[hyruga]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the root of desire is the need for survival. Ending the desire occurs only when you transcend the ego and a) you become aware that everything that happens is premeditated in some way and b) you see the possibility of giving your life possible. What I still can't see is where the motivation to act if there is no desire come from. I guess without desire there is no action.

no. The root of desire is more than just the need for survival. Desire can be wanting new sports cars, more houses, more prestige, more money, more women. more respect, more validation or even less stress. And if you feel the need to counter against any people's opinions/arguments, that's because you desire validation/respect.

[snowyowl]

Desire means we're not fully satisfied and complete in the here and now, we are creating stories about finding future happiness somewhere else. That's what the Buddha meant by life is suffering, ie life estranged from the present moment (reality) by ego desire. It's the difference between Samsara and Nirvana. 

[BipolarGrowth]

@Moksha can you name one of these cancer patients, or is this merely a seemingly plausible assumption you’ve made based on your beliefs about awakening? 
 

Are you always filled with joy like these cancer patients? Have you experienced this directly for yourself and permanently? 
 

Just trying to get more info to see if the stories of transcending suffering are true. I’ve experienced this before, but it only lasted a couple weeks during the longest experience. 

[BipolarGrowth]

@krockerman I think you have some good points about the relationship amongst desire, joy, and suffering, but I would argue the real fundamental root of joy and suffering is not desire but consciousness. 

[BipolarGrowth]

@Thestarguitarist14 I’d argue that you can be in being and still have desires. They just no longer cause any suffering, and it’s no big deal if you can’t fulfill a desire in that state. Desire is one of the things, if not the primary thing, that causes human beings to act. Show me someone who does not act, and I’ll certainly believe you that you can not have desire. 
 

Even many Buddhas have the desire to return to the world in order to help others out of suffering. You can’t be a bodhisattva without the desire to help others.  

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, hyruga said:

no. The root of desire is more than just the need for survival. Desire can be wanting new sports cars, more houses, more prestige, more money, more women. more respect, more validation or even less stress. And if you feel the need to counter against any people's opinions/arguments, that's because you desire validation/respect.

Those desires like presitge , etc derive from the basic need for survival. and also of reproduction. those are the roots, completely animal. The boy in the cave knows that without the acceptance of the tribe he s going to die , and the adult feels the strong call of reproduction. Death and life , its normal that is so difficult to stop the desire. You need to trascend the animal 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Breakingthewall