Why trust our direct experience?

[Johnny5]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Johnny5 Still the problem with solipsism seems a hard one to breakthrough. I hope one day i fucking trascend it 

No need, just don't mistake dream you for real you. (easier said than done)

[Farnaby]

All this is the same as solipsism and I don't think solipsism accurately describes reality but I understand that other people think differently. 

 

[Javfly33]

1 minute ago, Johnny5 said:

No need, just don't mistake dream you for real you. (easier said than done)

So 

 

Just now, Farnaby said:

All this is the same as solipsism and I don't think solipsism accurately describes reality but I understand that other people think differently. 

 

I just look at other people and think "Is there consciousness there being conscious of their bodies looking through their eyes?" And I come to the conclusion that I don´t know.And even if they do it doesn´t make any sense why consciousness right now is looking through this eyes bodies and not those ones.

 

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Yeah that's called solipsism.

Solipsism is only a dirty word because of some confused scientists who don't understand metaphysics. Sure, if you arrive at solipsism from a place of self-aggrandizement rather than self-trancendence, then it's certainly a problem that needs to be addressed. It's not a pathology if it doesn't lead to pathological outcomes.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Gesundheit]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Solipsism is only a dirty word because of some confused scientists who don't understand metaphysics. Sure, if you arrive at solipsism from a place of self-aggrandizement rather than self-trancendence, then it's certaintly a problem that needs to be addressed.

What if whatever you currently believe is true is just thoughts and not actually true? What if your metaphysics aren't as good as you think they are? What if you actually take some things on faith?

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I just look at other people and think "Is there consciousness there being conscious of their bodies looking through their eyes?" And I come to the conclusion that I don´t know.And even if they do it doesn´t make any sense why consciousness right now is looking through this eyes bodies and not those ones.

Name one thing that makes sense! 

Also try to make a very sharp distinction between what is actual and what is concepts from your mind... The raw data is actual.. "others are aware" is a concept... But notice.. "only me is aware and others are just my hallucination" is also a concept.. Actuality doesn't tell you anything about it.  Stick with the raw data and get out of your head and the whole question will disappear. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Someone here

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

What if whatever you currently believe is true is just thoughts and not actually true? What if your metaphysics aren't as good as you think they are? What if you actually take some things on faith?

What if I never disagreed on any of that?

[peachboy]

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Yeah that's called solipsism.

You're getting your concepts confused.

The issue concerning the tree falling in the forest relates (in its most basic analysis) to the subjective audible qualia that is produced by the mind.

There is no such thing as objective sound. Sound, by its very nature, is subjective.

Therefore if there are no conscious entities experiencing the phenomenon of sound then it simply doesn't render. Or in other words: the subjective psychoacoustic properties of sound, distinct from its objective causality.

At the very least, one might speculate that there was at first an objective kinetic event (the tree falling), that then created another kinetic event (the air molecules vibrating) that then was transduced by an ear-drum, into an electrical event through the brain that was finally converted into a qualia-istic event that is etched onto the canvas of consciousness.

Of course, even that isn't strictly true, but is a far better synopsis than the idea that a falling tree can make a sound if there is no awareness to observe it, which is patently impossible.

That's nothing to do with solipsism.

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Farnaby said:

@Leo Gura what if other people are in that forest? It certainly exists in their awareness. 

That's the kicker! Other people only exist in your awareness.

You are imagining imaginary people in an imaginary forest, and then imagining that you aren't imagining it but that it's real!

Hehehe...

You sneaky devil

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Leo Gura Leo, enough tip-toeing around the solipsism bullshit. Do you believe in reincarnation or not? If I'll experience the life of the people in my waking life, will I also experience the life of my dream characters?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@Leo Gura Leo, enough tip-toeing around the solipsism bullshit. Do you believe in reincarnation or not? If I'll experience the life of the people in my waking life, will I also experience the life of my dream characters?

God is an Infinite Dreamer dreaming an Infinite Dream.

One dream, two dreams, three...

What's the difference, don't you see?

What's the difference 'tween you and me?

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are imagining imaginary people in an imaginary forest, and then imagining that you aren't imagining it but that it's real!

Isn't that itself something that you are imagining? 

"the forest exists when I'm not aware of it" = imagination and concepts... 

"the forest does not exist if I'm not aware of it" =also concepts and imagination. 

In actuality there is no actuality to both statements.. Right?  So both of them are relative.. Partial.. And don't contain the whole truth???.? 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Isn't that itself something that you are imagining?

No, it's something you are imagining I'm imagining

The infinite regress to nothingness is not a bug, it's the prime feature.

All roads lead to nothing and nowhere. Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind

[Someone here]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

No, it's something you are imagining I'm imagining

I mean you're not wrong lol 

 

But then also... 

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm imagining that.. 

You are imagining imaginary people in an imaginary forest, and then imagining that you aren't imagining it but that it's real

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Leo Gura What is the point of increasing the love in the world, ie. politics, if love is absolute?

Edited August 30, 2020 by AtheisticNonduality

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

To make things simpler, let's say I robbed a bank. The absolute truth would be that I robbed the bank. 

No. "I robbed a bank" is only true relative to the idea of English grammar and a certain interpretation of language; whether it's literal or metaphorical, said in context, and whether you're using coded language etc..

It also assumes that you believe in personal agency, that personal agents even exist, that actions exist, that banks exist, and so on... Your statement only makes sense relative to these presuppositions.

 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

It's not the same thing to say that you robbed the bank.

Depends if "me" and "you" are not the same people, and that isn't self-evident or obvious outside the given presuppositions that I've went through with you.

 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

It makes no sense to say that I am you and you are me, and therefore we robbed ourselves.

That depends on the pre-existing value system that you're using to interpret the story.

 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit said:

Now you can get technical however you want about what happened, that I don't exist or cannot be pinpointed or whatever, but that would still not change anything. The fact that the bank was robbed by me and not you would remain true regardless.

What is a bank? What is a robbery? What is a person? These things aren't written in stone. They're not absolutes.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@Leo Gura What is the point of increasing the love in the world, ie. politics, if love is absolute?

Since Love is absolute, everything that happens is already in the service of Love. So you have no choice in the matter. Whatever you do will increase Love in the world. The more evil you become the more Love your evilness with spawn in response.

Have you noticed yet? The evolution of society cannot be stopped. Politics is a force of nature no different than the moon orbiting the Earth.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@Leo Gura What is the point of increasing the love in the world, ie. politics, if love is absolute?

To rediscover that it is Absolute. Collectively as a society.  Over and over.  Just like if you won a game of Monopoly and then wiped the board clean and started again.

[Fran11]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

God is an Infinite Dreamer dreaming an Infinite Dream.

One dream, two dreams, three...

What's the difference, don't you see?

What's the difference 'tween you and me?

You cannot prove or disprove "naive solipism" (the one dream version of it) by direct experience, because your own direct experience is all you'll encounter by definiton.

But when contemplating Absolute Infinity it certainly seems impossible that from such endless potential your current human life, relatively minuscule, is all that ever appeared/will ever apper. 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Fran11

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

You cannot prove or disprove "naive solipism" (the one dream version of it) by direct experience, because your own direct experience is all you'll encounter by definiton.

But when contemplating Absolute Infinity it certainly seems impossible that from such endless potential your current human life is all that ever appeared/will ever apper. 

 

What is proof of anything?  Proof in its entirety is finite and relative.  The relative cannot grasp the Absolute.  Because proof require others.  The Absolute is total Oneness.  The point is all distinctions ultimately break down.  The distinction between self and other - between you and me - they are illusory or imaginary and must collapse.   

This can't be grasped from the ego it requires God mode 

And God will dream and infinite number of dreams for that is Inifnity.