Dating Profile with a Handsome Man

[Derek White]

1 hour ago, Anna1 said:

So you've come across some shallow women on the internet, and?

... and we must be practical when dealing with relationships because most people are shallow who want an attractive physique and an attractive personality. Advice that says don’t manipulate is impractical.

Honesty, love, manipulation have degrees and are deep spiritual things. All relationships would fail if we were honest all the time. Asking someone to not manipulate is like saying “don’t smile  if you don’t want to” to someone going for an interview.

[Preety_India]

10 minutes ago, Derek White said:

... and we must be practical when dealing with relationships because most people are shallow who want an attractive physique and an attractive personality. Advice that says don’t manipulate is impractical.

Honesty, love, manipulation have degrees and are deep spiritual things. All relationships would fail if we were honest all the time. Asking someone to not manipulate is like saying “don’t smile  if you don’t want to” to someone going for an interview.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Smiling at an interview is more about social etiquette rather than honesty, if someone is caught being dishonest about their credentials in an interview they will be thrown out right away. 

If a guy frowns on a date it would be considered not as a sign of honesty but as rude or bad manners or no control over emotions in public. 

Whereas when it comes to dating obviously honesty is darn important because people are immediately put off by a fake person who is faking his life and achievements or downplaying his issues. He will be considered a liar and disingenuous. Suffice to say that the woman will be pissed off and feel duped. 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Preety_India

[Forestluv]

56 minutes ago, Derek White said:

Honesty, love, manipulation have degrees and are deep spiritual things. All relationships would fail if we were honest all the time. Asking someone to not manipulate is like saying “don’t smile  if you don’t want to” to someone going for an interview.

This sounds like self rationalization to me. . . Manipulation is a "deep spiritual thing"? . . . C'mon. 

The definition of manipulation is "controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly:"

It is a self-centered practice to meet ones self desires regardless of the impact on another - often treating others unfairly / dishonestly which can cause harm. The spiritualization of "manipulation" from a self-centered perspective is  rationalization, imo. At high green and above, it's no longer the same energetics and the term "manipulation" doesn't apply well. A green-level couple wouldn't say "Let's manipulate our mutual connection to reach deeper levels of spiritual resonance together". The term "manipulate" doesn't fit well in this context. 

Let's use the smiling as an example in the context of manipulation on a date. A grumpy guy who is over-serious reads online that smiling is attractive to women on first dates. So they guy thinks "So if I smile on the date, it will seem like I'm not a grumpy over-serious guy and my chances with her will increase!!". So he goes on the date and tries to hide his grumpiness and over-seriousness by smiling. Let's say he successfully manipulates a woman into thinking he is an easy-going guy that smiles and is happy. She agrees to go on a second date and perhaps third. . . What do you think will eventually happen? This guy is not being genuine and he won't be able to maintain the charade with fakeness. It will actually be a mess for both of them and it won't go well for either person.

A much better approach would be for the guy to introspect and ask "what is it about me that is repelling women?". When he realizes his grumpiness, complaining, negativity, neediness, seriousness etc. is unattractive - trying to cover that up with fake smiles to manipulate a women isn't going to work. A better approach would be for him to actually work on himself and grow - to develop into a person that is genuinely happy, positive, friendly and smiling. Now it's natural and he doesn't have to try to manipulate with fakeness. Actually being it naturally and genuinely is what is attractive - fakes are unattractive and will eventually be exposed. 

[Forrest Adkins]

Alright ended it. 

I have to give credit some women bailed out completely when I got sexual or disgusting. Most threw me some more chances to redeem myself. Just being very boring was usually not a problem, women agreed to meet after some very standard messages. 2 or 3 accused me of being a fake profile, which I admitted.

The amount of dates I could have arranged with a little effort would be easily 20+ within 2 days as a free user with the swipe limit. Match rate was probably around 70%

[Derek White]

@Preety_India It’s a matter if semantics. Smiling on a date can seem as good manners to some and as being fake and pretentious to others.

@Serotoninluv There are degrees to manipulation, like I said.

To truly not manipulate is to accept reality as it is. Why improve one’s personality? Just accept it and let go. Why act on desires? Just sit with them and don’t try to change them. Why go out to find food? Just sit with hunger without manipulating. In the letting go video, Leo said eventually you let go of your life. We manipulate unconsciously and every moment. To truly not manipulate is to let go of everything. That’s why I maintain, manipulation goes very deep.

In the context of relationships, if someone lies or hides their true intentions then that would be too much manipulation. Wearing a little bit of makeup or learning how to talk properly is manipulation that is normal and acceptable. People don't want their partners to remove all filters. They don’t want to hear every thought their partner is having. Sometimes the sensitive thing is to not share your thoughts (that keep changing) and to keep unnecessary criticism to yourself. I don’t just mean romantic relationships, I mean ALL relationships. Maybe telling your partner “that actor is way hotter that you” may not be the best thing, it may break their heart.
 

[Forestluv]

@Derek White Of course there are degrees of manipulation, just as their are degrees of lying. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The issue with using degrees is when a mind tries to use a subtle form as being representative as moderate forms to justify it's own manipulation.

My working definition is the standard definition: "controlling someone to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly:" Are there different degrees of controlling someone to your own advantage? Of course. Are there different degrees of treating someone unfairly or dishonestly of course. Yet diluting the meaning down too much loses the original meaning. You are recontextualizing the term "manipulation" to a point I wouldn't use the term "manipulation" because it is not the agreed-upon usage of the term and would cause a lot of confusion. When my body is hungry and I eat, I wouldn't use the term "manipulation" and I don't know anyone that would use that term. It is nowhere near the standard definition of the term. I suppose we could have a nuanced discussion about desire and seeking, yet that is a very different context, imo. It would be like having a discussion about "violence" to others and someone saying "taking a shower is violent because it kills microorganisms on the body". Technically yes, but that is a very different context. 

The problem I see with diluting down a term is that the ego can then use that to justify poor behavior by creating false equivalencies. "She is wearing makeup to manipulate me, so it's ok if I lie to her about my job in an effort to have sex with her". That is a false equivalency. I am using the term "manipulation" with a minimum threshold level based on the definition above. 

One of the main energetics with manipulation is that it is self serving. I am trying to serve my needs even if that involves manipulating and being dishonest with you. And I will protect myself from being manipulated by you. If the other person has the same orientation, there will be interpersonal conflict. The relationship will be very transcactional and their won't be a sense of "we". 

Rather than splitting hairs about what counts as manipulation and what doesn't, the whole energetic orientation can be transcended such that it isn't the main energy of the relationship. Desire and motivation does not need to be oriented toward satisfying self-centered needs. For example, someone who was highly involved in spirituality and yoga may have slacked off on this. Perhaps they get busy at work for six months. They go on a date with someone who is active in spirituality and yoga. One energetic orientation is to fake like I am spiritual and into yoga so she will like me (manipulation). Another energetic orientation is to be inspired and ignite one's inner energetic system. The person may get back into spirituality and yoga because that is their natural inclination. The couple may connect and do yoga together. They may go on a yoga retreat together, they may go to Sedona, AZ together to deepen their spirituality. This is mutual learning, growth, support and bonding. There is a sense of "us" together. To call this "manipulation" is highly misleading because the energetic orientation leading to self-centered manipulation of others is a very different energetic orientation. 

And I’m not suggesting only men manipulate women. The last gal I dated. . . it turns out she was still married and didn’t tell me ?. She had some manipulative chops. 

[Bill W]

3 hours ago, Forrest Adkins said:

Alright ended it. 

I have to give credit some women bailed out completely when I got sexual or disgusting. Most threw me some more chances to redeem myself. Just being very boring was usually not a problem, women agreed to meet after some very standard messages. 2 or 3 accused me of being a fake profile, which I admitted.

The amount of dates I could have arranged with a little effort would be easily 20+ within 2 days as a free user with the swipe limit. Match rate was probably around 70%

A true scientist! You recorded the statistics and you even considered the ethics. 

You should get in touch with these guys below and see if you can get it published. Title could be something along the lines of "New study highlights that women are willing to overlook every single conceivable character defect as long as the profile picture resembles Ken"

https://www.thelancet.com/

 

[Ananta]

6 hours ago, Derek White said:

Advice that says don’t manipulate is impractical.

Depends on what you mean by manipulate. I frankly don't like the word. It's got a negative connotation. When I think of ppl manipulating each other I think of lying. I never had to lie to someone to get them to like me. They either liked "me" for who I am or they didn't. If they didn't, then see ya!

So, when I think of ppl manipulating others it's usually for no good. Like, trying to get someone in the sack.

I read your posts above and sorry, but sounds like bullshit. 

"Love, honesty and manipulation"...huh???

If that's your style of getting chicks, then okie-dokie. I'm sad for you that you have to do that to get a girl.

"and dating is skewed against men."

How do you figure? There are plenty of women not getting approached. Women who just have a nice personality. They just aren't on here bitching about it.

[Arcangelo]

6 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

A grumpy guy who is over-serious reads online that smiling is attractive to women on first dates. So they guy thinks "So if I smile on the date, it will seem like I'm not a grumpy over-serious guy and my chances with her will increase!!". So he goes on the date and tries to hide his grumpiness and over-seriousness by smiling. Let's say he successfully manipulates a woman into thinking he is an easy-going guy that smiles and is happy. She agrees to go on a second date and perhaps third. . . What do you think will eventually happen? This guy is not being genuine and he won't be able to maintain the charade with fakeness. It will actually be a mess for both of them and it won't go well for either person.

Not true, if the guy succeeds at getting laid, it will go very well for the guy. (If he is a stage orange guy looking for free sex)

 

 

Arc

[Ananta]

38 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

Not true, if the guy succeeds at getting laid, it will go very well for the guy. (If he is a stage orange guy looking for free sex)

 

 

Arc

And this is the manipulation I'm talking about. Acting like someone else to get laid. 

I feel for the women being played, tbh, but they are stupid to give it up to easily! After I got played I made guys wait a month!!!!! Lol. Yeah, I learn from my mistakes.

[Preety_India]

I got played by my second ex to get into a relationship with him. I did not feel good. I felt horrible, duped and frankly traumatized. 

It took many months to get over it and during those months I cried every other night, sometimes at my own stupidity and sometimes the crying was out of anger directed at this person who had been manipulative with me. It hurt like hell. 

What I observed about manipulation is that the kind of guys who use it are extremely insecure and justify their insecurities. They usually can't get a girl because of their appearance or lack of skill, they lack humor or warmth to attract women and they have commitment issues because deep down they are losers who don't want any responsibility or accountability in life and they don't wish to achieve anything or they are to scared to be in a relationship because they feel they are losing something even when they are not or they feel they are missing out on another woman while being with one. But basically they are very commitment phobic. They know that a lot of women value commitment and so they choose to lie and manipulate to get their way and get the woman. It's like duping delight, an excitement for having deceived a naive person, the sense of ownership and control over someone they usually cannot get is tremendously satisfying for them. When asked if they would pay a prostitute for sex, they would not want that because there is no fun because there is no manipulation just a straight up transaction, they also do not like to be with someone who is equally manipulative because they don't derive happiness being with someone who they aren't fooling. 

There is a certain happiness they derive by duping and fooling and their deep insecurities actually fuel this need and their deficit and their entitlement (dating is skewed against men entitlement) makes them totally justify what they do. They accept this sadistic game as a way of life. If the woman cries, they come up with excuses to justify their behaviors to further manipulate her into their twisted fantasy of keeping her around and letting her get hurt even more. The feeling of her getting hurt only bolsters their confidence because they feel authoritative and self righteous and they believe that the woman is just supposed to suck it up because it's her fate. 

This is how manipulators are. They are cruel sick sociopaths who could care less who is getting hurt in their reckless game of trapping and hurting a person in the name of love. They are the worst types of narcissists and sadists whose way of showing love is actually hurting and exploiting another person's naive emotions and enjoy the control and power they get out of it. 

I myself suffered a lot because of it. One distinct characteristic I noticed with manipulative men is that they tell elaborate tales and stories about every detail in their life and usually all of these are lies. 

 My ex used to tell me lots of stories about why I should not tell my parents about our relationship and how I should always hide it from others. I was slowly being brainwashed by him. He started manipulating me for sex. And if I denied, I was shamed. All of this came to an end one day when I was sick in the hospital and he never showed up and I realized he was not what he always tried to appear. He was a selfish manipulative deceitful sociopath who wanted only and only sex and nothing. But he was a coward so he couldn't say that because he knew I wanted a wonderful man and I wouldn't be with a man who only wants sex. So he had to manipulate me to get me in his life. 

Fast forward to now, I feel much better and confident and I'm better at spotting the manipulators. It's the same old cheesy lines, the same stories, the same red flags. So when I see it, I just give out a sarcastic laugh and turn that guy down. 

These  manipulative men are hurtful and actually losers. Without all that manipulation they can never land a woman. 

It's similar to students cheating to get grades. Without cheating they will never get those grades. They are scum. 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Preety_India

[Derek White]

@Serotoninluv I introduced the idea of manipulation being a spectrum because I get a sense individuals were equating lying about your job to fake compliments. I’m not making any false equivalencies. My definition is more accurate than the standard and less confusing imo.

Even if we use the standard one, it has huge grey areas. Take smiling. Good manners or manipulation? Who knows?

As long as you’re not calling wearing a cologne or to steer a conversation or to change the setting as unacceptable manipulations, then I’m fine.

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

energetic orientation

Idk what you mean by “energetic orientation”. I’m assuming it means mindset.

I mean... ultimately it makes YOU feel good. But I get your point. I still disagree with it. Which leads me to my next point.

6 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The relationship will be very transcactional and their won't be a sense of "we".

I think the right orientation or mindset should be transactional. If I’m not wrong you suggest a “grow with her” mindset. Well, “the grow with her” is also transactional because you’re expecting something of her. I think in terms of spectrums so all relations are transactions imo. Realistically the type of relationship you talk about requires a lot of transactions and most people don’t want those imo. Especially in todays time when people are afraid of commitment. Even if they do commit they want to give each other space. 

Have a mindset of a businessman. Market/present yourself well. Put your offer on the table, honestly, and see the other parties offer and if you like it then accept. Don’t lie, cheat or do fraud. Learn presentation, marketing, or ‘game’ whatever you wanna call it. The most skilled person is not necessarily the one who gets the job all the time.

Learning presentation skills is not manipulation in standard language imo.

The manipulation stuff we agree on I think, it’s just minutiae. I think the main point we disagree on is whether relationships should be transactional. I think they should be, fair and implicitly so. I don’t understand how it can be otherwise.

I’m not worshipping a deity/goddess. I’m not her slave. We are two independent individuals. We’re not doing Bhakti Yoga lol. Plus it’s hard to find someone who’s into Bhakti.

[Teejay]

I have recently created a Tinder profile with a starting sentence 'a so-called relativistic space cadet who lives in his own head'. The intention being meeting somebody who is like minded as myself, who we can talk about the same stuff.

Honestly, I am not concerned at all if I don't meet anybody in my area, which is a region with approximately 50,000 people living within a hour's drive of my town.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Teejay

[Derek White]

4 hours ago, Anna1 said:

"Love, honesty and manipulation"...huh???

If that's your style of getting chicks, then okie-dokie. I'm sad for you that you have to do that to get a girl.

"and dating is skewed against men."

How do you figure? There are plenty of women not getting approached. Women who just have a nice personality. They just aren't on here bitching about it.

Get a more nuanced view of manipulation or at least read what I mean by manipulating before judging. I think you are willfully ignorant about what I mean by manipulating. Your definition of manipulation is vague.

Maybe their not bitching about it because their aren’t that many? Some women are bitching about their narcissistic exes though.
 

3 hours ago, Anna1 said:

Acting like someone else to get laid.

Better than looking like someone else ?. I don’t agree with everything @Arcangelo does.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Derek White

[Derek White]

@Preety_India idk if this was directed at me but just know I condemn lying and gaslighting. 

My definition of manipulation is different from yours. Let’s not have a misunderstanding here.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Derek White

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, Derek White said:

Get a more nuanced view of manipulation or at least read what I mean by manipulating before judging. I think you are willfully ignorant about what I mean by manipulating. Your definition of manipulation is vague.

Maybe their not bitching about it because their aren’t that many? Some women are bitching about their narcissistic exes though.
 

Better than looking like someone else ?. I don’t agree with everything @Arcangelo does.

There is nothing like vague and strict manipulation. Manipulation is bad in whatever form 

Care to explain what your definition of manipulation looks like how it is supposed to be good? 

Women don't like to bitch about them not getting approached in public because let's say they did, they would be called "victim playing" and what not. Sorry women can't be winners around misogynists. 

Women are not even supposed to approach men because if they do, they get called bimbos. So your comment on "dating is skewed against men" is totally thoughtless because men are totally free to approach. Nobody stops them. If they get rejected it's because they are not up  to the mark in her eyes. Sorry but beggars can't be choosers. Wanna be a chooser? Then be someone who is admired by women. So no shortage of privileges for men when it comes to dating hence dating is in no way skewed for men because a wholesome man can have whichever woman he wants. He is an attraction magnet. 

Be careful about the word bitching. If you think that I'm bitching about my ex, then learn to be sensitive because I'm not bitching and neither is @Anna1 because as women we can relate to our experiences of getting manipulated in relationships and how it hurts. That's called venting out past trauma or hurt or bad experiences not bitching.

Even men talk about their past experiences with narcissistic partners, Arcangelo had plenty of those, I don't berate him because his experiences are valid and they have as much right to vent and express as much as I do. That's not bitching. He or me are not bitching. 

Nobody is trying to play victim here, neither me or Anna nor Arcangelo. 

When you get victimized in a relationship out of manipulation or lack of judgment that's not called "playing victim" 

Stop with victim blaming. 

 

[Derek White]

@Preety_India I already explained what my definition of manipulation is but you didn’t read it.

I already explained how I condemn lying and cheating. I told you to be careful no to misunderstand me, but you willfully ignored it.

You don’t even care to understand what I’m saying. No one’s victim blaming you.

You sound so condescending and emotional. Don’t vent out your anger for your ex onto me. Others can do the same to you.

You have too much trauma to understand what I’m saying. Just put me on your ignore list or something because I don’t think we can have a proper conversation ever.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Derek White said:

@Preety_India I already explained what my definition of manipulation is but you didn’t read it.

I already explained how I condemn lying and cheating. I told you to be careful no to misunderstand me, but you willfully ignored it.

You don’t even care to understand what I’m saying. No one’s victim blaming you.

You sound so condescending and emotional. Don’t vent out your anger for your ex onto me. Others can do the same to you.

You have too much trauma to understand what I’m saying. Just put me on your ignore list or something because I don’t think we can have a proper conversation ever.

You're being evasive. If you had already explained your definition of manipulation you would have easily left a link to your post or copied it or quoted it. But you didn't. 

That's because you're trying to argue without content. You have nothing to say that's why the clever way of evading the question is to deflect and say that you already said it. 

I'm not even angry at you but you take it as anger. Because you are trying to simply deflect blame in various ways. You're not sure about what you want to say. 

Me having trauma has nothing to do with the question of manipulation. 

You're using the same strategy that SJWs use when asked about what is really offending them. They keep blaming, ad hominem attacks and beating around the bush but never have a counter point of argument. Can you see it? 

Chill. Nobody is getting at you. If you don't want me to reply to your comments, don't refer to me as well. Then I won't be inclined to reply. 

I tried scrolling through your posts and came across this and I guess this is what your definition of manipulation is 

Can't quote here so I'll just write 

 

"In the context of relationships, if someone lies or hides their true intentions then that would be too much manipulation. Wearing a little bit of makeup or learning how to talk properly is manipulation that is normal and acceptable." 

 

Learning how to talk properly is no manipulation at all. Nor is better clothing. Improving oneself to get a better chance in the dating market was never called manipulation... It's called self improvement. 

Manipulation is when you invent lies and stories and your intentions are hidden. So the other person has no idea what your actual plan is because you are not honest to them.. That's called manipulation. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Preety_India

[Leo Gura]

On 2/24/2020 at 11:41 AM, Forrest Adkins said:

I encourage everyone to make a Tinder profil with some regular good looking (top 10%) guy. Just leave the profile text empty, it doesnt matter.

Its a truly eye opening experiece, within hours you will get hundreds of matches and women will actively contact you. You can say the most braindead/evil/boring stuff and they wont loose interest. Just opening with "Sex?" will get a positive answer. A guy like this can arrange sex with 10+ different girls by putting in 1 hour of half assed effort.

This is totally true because online dating is 100% about looks. Nothing else matters.

When you post a pic of yourself online, that's all you're reducing yourself down to.

If you are not a classically handsome guy, this is a terrible strategy for you because you are not displaying your other great qualities. Your strategy must be to get hot girls in-person with your personality, not your looks. Girls respond very differently in-person.

Online is the lazy man's game. If you are lazy with game, don't be surprised when your results look lazy too.

The bulk of a man's attractiveness is in his personality and the life he's built. So to reduce yourself to a profile pic is like selling a diamond at a dollar store.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is totally true because online dating is 100% about looks. Nothing else matters.

When you post a pic of yourself online, that's all you're reducing yourself down to.

If you are not a classically handsome guy, this is a terrible strategy for you because you are not displaying your other great qualities. Your strategy must be to get hot girls in-person with your personality, not your looks. Girls respond very differently in-person.

Online is the lazy man's game. If you are lazy with game, don't be surprised when your results look lazy too.

The bulk of a man's attractiveness is in his personality and the life he's built. So to reduce yourself to a profile pic is like selling a diamond at a dollar store.

Well said. All of these Incel and MGTOW guys are basing the nature of the "sexual marketplace" off of some Tinder statistics. 

But Tinder is awful for meeting someone as a woman, because you can't intuitively suss out whether or not a guy is a match. You just look at a picture, read some words, and roll the dice.