Derek White

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  1. But how do you know he has experienced different states of consciousness? He’s only experienced them on psychedelics. He hasn’t gone seriously into yoga, tantra, etc. Maybe those produce different states. Maybe all the states Leo has experienced come under the category of psychedelic states, and a whole different category of states exist elsewhere which are more profound. (The reason I say this because he hasn’t experienced the stuff these other people talk about) It’s not just about awareness alone, does he know about devotion? Does he know about Ramakrishna Paramahansa and his path? What happens if you are devoted to a goddess, does he know? That’s why I say it’s intellectual compared to others. Yogis, tantriks, what they say is completely different. There’s an assumption here that gurus have a very narrow and limited view of spirituality. It could be the opposite. Take Sadhguru for example, he has travelled, talked to, and explored spiritual traditions around the world lol, Native American, European, Greek, Middle-eastern, Indian, Tibetan, Zen, you name it. I am sure he has met people who have done all kinds of psychedelics (even in India people do them and he’s met Native Americans who do them). He even has experience with occultists. Compared to him Leo has sat at one place and done psychedelics. So, who’s the SAP worker and who’s the programmer here?
  2. He experiments with psychedelics (He went to some solo retreats but idk of any initiations by a master or following anyone in particular). See the Freedom from understanding section. Other schools are not as focused on understanding, they are much more experiential. They focus on improving your awareness, rather than more accurate ideas in your head about reality. To them it doesn't matter what you think about reality. It's the difference between being in truth vs remembering truth (experienced on a trip). But even then what he does is endless (it's like science). People need to know that you need freedom from this endless pursuit as well. Like... incorporating new experiences into your worldview is itself an intellectual activity... many people would say it's not even spirituality. It's more like satisfying your curiosity, which is endless like lust. This is my best attempt at explaining this. Even in self-help, he emphasizes so much on reading, contemplation, and journaling. Others people are not as thought-oriented. That's attachment not involvement.
  3. A Critique Of And Leo Gura The intention of this critique is to make people aware of some of Leo’s limitations. It might save people time and unnecessary suffering. It is not meant to invalidate or insult or Leo. I think Leo is a great teacher in many ways, this is just healthy criticism. Please take it lightly. Since Leo likes to criticize everyone else, I thought why not do it to him this time. It’s worth mentioning that I’ve personally never taken any psychedelics and I don’t consider myself some advanced spiritual person either. Some might consider this critique incomplete - which is fair. I have been watching Leo and other teachers for a long time. Nevertheless, I think it can still be helpful for people to read this. If anything, it can be an exercise in open-mindedness. It’s important to note that I will only be critiquing Leo on his more core and central teaching. So don’t expect much on minutia like his dating advice or politics. Although these thing can be important to some people, and you are free to level your own critiques on him, small or big, below this post, I personally won’t be focusing much on this. So sit back and let’s being… Freedom from understanding This one is a little confusing and long but the most important. Stick with me please. Basically, Leo takes psychedelics and shares his findings on YouTube. Why am I telling you this? I am telling you this because there are things he doesn’t explicitly tell you: What Leo does is pursuit of understanding. It is an endless process. There is no end to it. You can keep on accumulating new experiences and making your understanding better and better. Understanding is a limited process rooted in the ego-mind. So during his psychedelic trip he has an experience of God. We can say he is in a higher state of consciousness. Once it is over, he comes back to his normal state of consciousness. The experience is stored in the form of memory which gets interpreted and communicated by the ego-mind. The memory isn’t reliable because it can’t be stored. Understanding is a limited thing, whereas Truth is unlimited it can’t be bound to such things. So here’s what you need to know: Most people don’t need to do what Leo does. Leo is like a scientist. It’s his profession and passion to have new experiences and create new mental models. This pays his bills. Truth is beyond understanding. Truth is something living, it doesn’t come from a memory of a trip. Understanding (and experience) is only needed to answer a few basic questions, beyond it you don’t need it. Questions like, “Who am I?”, “What is thought?”, “What is the limitation of thought?” Basically to quiet the mind and satisfy your curiosity. To become free from this as well. The point of spirituality is freedom, but people get stuck in this cycle of accumulating experiences and gathering knowledge. They never become free from understanding itself. You have to use your understanding to get free from understanding. Getting more understanding will not change you. Your personality will remain the same. Your habits and patterns will remain the same. Your base level of consciousness will remain the same. You will remain an idiot. (If anything too many fixed ideas you got from your trips might make your ego swell and make it hard for you to look at life afresh.) You might regret wasting this time on understanding. It’s endless. It’s the same as exploring the physical world. You can keep exploring it deeper and deeper and arrive at new conclusions each time. Your time might be better spent on any number of things. It’s important to tell you that it will not get rid of suffering either, in case that’s why you are following Leo. It’s important to tell you this because people have attached unrealistic expectations about this. If you’re an average person with a job and a career, you don’t need to do this. In fact this might not even be spirituality for you, it’s like a weird game of documenting peak experiences. He might say he made this clear to people, but I say he doesn't explicitly tell you this. Most people don't need this and they don't know they don't need it, they are lost and Leo doesn't help them out. Lack of balance Leo likes to talk about balance, but how balanced is his spirituality? How balanced is his self-help? It is overly intellectual (as he himself admits). All he’s trying to do is get peak spiritual experiences. He has completely neglected raising his base level of consciousness. As far as you know he is not doing anything to raise it. He inspires others to do the same. Arrogance, ego and the forum If you had asked me about Leo’s ego a year ago, I would have ignored it as minutia, but now I increasingly feel it is becoming a problem. After an awakening his ego becomes inflated for several weeks. Every time he gets an awakening you can bet it will be like this. You know something other people don’t. So what? What’s the big deal? What’s there to be proud about? You don’t even know it after the trip. I don’t see the point of inflating your ego. Trap of solipsism “But it’s not ego, he’s trying to communicate solipsism. That’s why he says he is the best and the only one awakened.” No, no. If he was he wouldn’t say it like that. It would be a matter of fact statement. Anybody with some awareness can tell that what he is saying coming from ego. He thinks there’s no one he can learn from. There can be no characters in the dream more knowledgeable and aware as him. Yet he continues to be in the dream. He thinks he is the most advanced, not because of solipsism, he actually thinks that. (For anyone that thinks otherwise, you can simply use the search function and look what he said in the past.) (I'm not saying solipsism is not true.) It’s a one way conversation with him. There’s nothing you can say to him that will get through to him. There’s really no point talking to him anymore. It’s a misapplication of solipsism. “He’s just being authentic.” Being authentic doesn’t mean doing whatever comes to your mind. “I feel like murdering someone, so I will murder someone.” That’s not authentic. Again, I think it comes under a trap of solipsism. “The other teachers are not as good” He doesn’t know about other teachers’ methods. Leo doesn’t know about all these things, he has never learned from an actual Yogi, Tantric, or a Buddhist monk from the places these traditions originate from. He has never gone too deep into this. He’s not qualified to talk about it. He doesn’t know about devotion, about chakras, energy, and many other things. It might be because he has an autoimmune disorder which prevents him from exploring other methods fully. That’s why he likes psychedelics so much. They’re quick and easy. “Buddhism will never get you there.” Sadhguru said Buddhism is a long, drawn out process. He said Buddhist masters tell you it will take you 12 life times of sadhana to become enlightened. Buddhism in the east, the actual Buddhism, makes it clear. It doesn’t give you false expectations. "But re-incarnation and all that isn't real." Just like everything else. The walls in your house, your ego-mind, your body, and your psychedelics. How do you know it's not as real as radio waves? "But these teachers are genetic freaks! We can't be like them." So it just didn't occur to these genetic freaks that other people can never advance spiritually like them. These supposedly genetic freaks who are juggernauts of awareness, just didn't realize other people are not like them. It slipped their attention. Obviously if these people are so aware they know what they are doing and what others are capable of. I've seen videos and testimonies of people who go to these people. People's lives have changed for the better. Obviously not all the people who benefit make a YouTube channel and say exactly the same things Leo says. People are private. Being offensive and outrageous I am embarrassed to share that I watch with anybody. With post titles like, brains don’t exists and pedophilia is love. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Leo has no regard for how others might perceive his loyal followers when he does things like this. It’s coming from ego. The way he’s going about saying it is dumb. You don’t need to do all this to make your point. It’s unappealing, that’s why people move away from you and he feels they are moving away because they don’t understand his point. “Look at this video of a murder taking place. This is love guys! Look at this! Why are you going away? Surely you’re not as awake as me! I’m the most awakened person on the planet!” Future I think in the future, it is possible, Leo will eventually develop occult powers with the use of psychedelics. And his ego will be even more inflated. It will become even more ugly. This is all a consequence of not neglecting his base level of consciousness. Forum The forum is not a great place. Partly because Leo himself sets the precedence on how to communicate here and he himself breaks his own rules and name calls people. Even when he’s not name calling you directly, that’s what he’s trying to do indirectly. He’s so snarky too. Other than that he’s doing some version of “everything is a dream”, “this is just a figment of your dream.” “It’s the internet” No. They look at Leo’s writing style and get inspired. The quality of the forum is quite low. Some members with mental illnesses should’ve been reached out and told to take care of themselves before posting again. There are posts which are quite low, like “why I hate men/women” or some other thing like that. Some members should’ve been kicked out a long time ago but Leo seemed to have a soft-corner for them. There are people who have shown no progress (or even regression) and have been on the forum for a long time. For e.g, take Nahm’s example. He should’ve been stopped a long time ago. I come on the forum occasionally and even I noticed he was misleading members on the forum whether he meant to do it or not. And I have seen long term members being lost and no one corrects them. This is important ‘cause there have been incidents of suicide and people ending up in mental hospitals among Leo’s audience. It’s not far fetched to call what he does irresponsible. Better self-help teachers In a sense you can’t even call what Leo does self help anymore. Over the years, he has become more interested in sharing his awakening from his trips than actually understanding his audience’s problems and solving them. 90% of the time he’s just describing his awakening and it’s not of much use because you cannot get to that point by just listening to him. Just do the psychedelics in the way Leo say, there’s no point listening to him except for entertainment. I think, there are better more balanced self-help teachers out there. Those who don’t focus on journalling and intellectualizing too much. Intellectualizing is the number one trap today, people just sit and home and try to think through their problems instead of taking action. So that’s why I think it’s a big limitation of Leo. There is Sandeep Maheshwari for example who has a good balance of self-help and spirituality. His content is not in English however. And for what we know Leo is not a very productive person either. His life might be worse than most people’s for what we knew (partially because of his autoimmune disease). I don’t he’s the ideal person to teach a balanced self-help. For e.g. take the difference between Sadhguru and Leo on concentration. Concentration is one of the most important things you need to become successful spiritually and materially. Leo has a video on concentration titled: Concentration vs Meditation - How To Develop Concentration. I’m sure everyone has seen it multiple times so I won’t talk about it. Now look at what Sadhguru says about concentration: he says don’t try to concentrate. Trying to concentrate is torture and you won’t be able to sustain it. Instead be involved in whatever you are doing and focus will naturally come. Not attached, not detached, but involved. Like you are involved while playing a sport. To meditate is to be involved. Involvement brings attention, and attention brings clarity. Personally this had changed my life. Here’s one article by him: I think Sadhguru knows much more about attention, concentration, focus, alertness, and the overall mind than Leo. Other minutia If I were to say something else I would just say that Leo has a slight bias toward the “western” way of life and has wrong assumptions about people from other places. The lifestyle of the “west” isn’t all that great. They End I may edit this post later for spelling and grammatical errors, or if I want to add something to it.
  4. Of course. The chemicals you take are also a dream, and yet they help you with God-realization. What you experienced is also a dream and yet you cherish it. But with these other things you become arrogant and deny them by saying it's just imagination. Just like Scholar says everything is equally beautiful - you say everything is imagination. Also, the stuff you say about other spiritual teachers can be said about you too. Other spiritual teachers can't comment on psychedelics because they haven't taken them (taken them 100s of times in a particular way as you say), similarity you can't properly comment on their paths because you haven't reached the peak of their system. You say they need to take psychedelics they say you need to open all your chakras. To the layman both can't comment on each other's system.
  5. What you lecture Scholar for you do it yourself. How many times have people brought up deities, reincarnation, chakras, etc., and your response to that is, "it is imaginary", or "it is a dream".
  6. In his recent “state of consciousness is everything” video, Leo didn’t mention/highlight that your human mind, with all its willpower and desires, is just a figment of consciousness. Since Leo uses the world Mind to refer to consciousness it could be misunderstood as the human mind. What we generally call as you, your body and mind, is not the real you which is The Mind (God, Consciousness) which imagines everything. Hope this clears it up because I thought it was left a little muddy and could cause confusion for some.
  7. Wow, this was one of the best talks I've heard of Sadhguru. I was glued to it from start to finish. Joe was so patient and asked good questions without interrupting. It was great. I learned so much. @Leo Gura You should give it a listen and learn something, maybe your "dream characters" can teach you something.
  8. I was just gonna post about it! You beat me.
  9. @Raptorsin7 Thank you and everyone else for sharing your experiences with Nahm's coaching. I remember when you were the biggest Nahm advocate, and that you were being personally coached by him. I couldn't help but noticing that you made almost zero progress and I would even say your posts indicated you went backwards. I always had a bad feeling about that. To me it seemed you just needed some practical pointers with enough spiritual understanding to steer you in the right direction in life. I would be very interested to know more about your experience, I suggest you post a review of your coaching experience with Nahm on a separate thread or on your personal journal. I would love to learn from it. I don't think we can fully blame students like yourself for paying for bad teachers. The students by definition are confused and don't know any better. We cannot expect desperate people needing help to make sound decisions. I think it's the teachers responsibility. Another point I would like to add; there is a confusion on the forum about what non-duality (a-dvaita) is. Thoughts, and things are real. The differences remain. They are true on one level and not true on another at the same time. It is called non-duality (not-two), and not "oneness" for a reason. It is not two and not one either. People who keep asserting the emptiness of things are not seeing the full picture and they are not helping anyone. @puporing Some of the guidelines are not enforced strictly enough. Like it says people with severe mental illnesses shouldn't be here yet we see suicidal posts sometimes. Leo should tell them to avoid the forum till they seek help and a build proper foundation.
  10. I agree with the decision. The things you said about conflating the absolute and the relative, and giving neo-Advaita type answers is all true. I didn't think much about it since he was so respectful and mannered. However, I had a conversation on a thread with Nahm a month back where I had an epiphany that what he was saying is harmful. We were talking about Law Of Attraction, which he mentions in his YouTube videos. I was trying to understand him more so I was asking him questions. He said you can manifest absolutely anything with LOA, including winning lotteries, changing your physical features like height, fixing terminal cancer, etc. I then asked if we can bring back dead family members. He then pivoted to Neo-Advaita and said death is imaginary... I came to the conclusion that his advice/posts can make people disappointed and give them false hope. It can damage someone's journey and lead to a lot of wasted time trying to "manifest" something impossible. I think Nahm has some good insights but is completely clueless about other things. He is a good example of someone with incomplete knowledge. It was disappointing seeing such a senior mod saying something so ridiculous as telling people you can use LOA to win million dollar lotteries. @mandyjw There is no Nahm to ban and there is no Leo.
  11. IDK why people are so offended by solipsism. To me this insight has always been relaxing to the core. It brought me serenity. It is not that hard to get either. Once get it it so obvious. How can it be otherwise. You can definitely teach solipsism, you just hace to word it properly. Maybe the problem is you have dumb audience members who want cool soundings ideas and don’t take self-development seriously.Your style attracts those types of people. Honestly Leo, you don’t even need to have a solipsism video. All your other videos basically imply that it’s true. Sometimes you have straight up said it. Like, what do people think when he say, you are God? You are everything? Lol They ignore this and cherrypick what they want to hear.
  12. My posts are on this thread. You can find them by looking at pervious posts. I talked about, along with other things, the Nellie massacre where more than 2000+ people were killed and hardly any convictions, and the anti-Sikh massacres of 1984 where thousands of Sikhs were killed again with only a handful of convictions. These show that there is a history of organized violence against specific groups with the aid of the government.
  13. @Danioover9000 The video you linked undermines your own point. The man is not giving a hate speech against Hindus, he's describing how violence against Muslims has been normalized in the country. That's not anti-Hindu. It's actually the news anchors who are calling labelling it anti-Hindu, trying to add more hatred against Muslims. You have a hard time separating actual news from propaganda. It would be hate-speech if he said to discriminate against Hindus, incite violence upon them or boycott them, like they do in the video against Muslims which Itachi shared. The possibility of genocide is not farfetched at all. I have given many examples of organized violence against religious minorities in India in my previous posts as well. If it happened in the past it can happen again. If we have to explain to you that hatred against religious minorities is increasing, specially against Muslims, then this is a waste of time. If you can't see a clear link between propaganda and genocide, that means you don't have basic knowledge. Your posts can be offensive to people who are victims of Hindu extremism. Maybe you can revise you posts as well. Maybe next instead of asking a barrage of questions you don't even want answered, only ask one or two meaningful question which the other person will actually answer. People should understand why this post is coming. This post is coming because Muslims are tired of being hated on. If this offends you then maybe try to fix the problem of Islamophobia, instead of trying to shut other people up.
  14. IDk if what he did was right or wrong, but as the name suggests, they hate him in Punjab. But there was terrorism in Punjab, mainly in response to the massacres which happened against Sikhs across India. He killed a lot (thousands) of people in the process. There is still resentment in Punjab against India. All the states where non-Hindus are a majority - Kashmir; Punjab; Northeastern states like Nagaland, Mizoram, etc. have all had insurgencies. "They continued in some areas for several days, killing more than 3,000 Sikhs in New Delhi[48] and an estimated 8,000 – 17,000 Sikhs in total were killed across 40 cities in India.[6][7] At least 50,000 Sikhs were displaced.[6]" - Wikipedia (In comparison, 2000 people died in Gujrat in 2002, and 379 - 1500 people died in Jallianwala Bagh, so like this was a big deal but it's not even talked about in India.) "Such wide-scale violence cannot take place without police help." -Jagmohan Singh Khurmi, The Tribune "On 31 October, Congress Party officials provided assailants with voter lists, school registration forms, and ration lists.[60] The lists were used to find Sikh homes and business, an otherwise-impossible task because they were in unmarked, diverse neighbourhoods. During the night of 31 October, before the massacres began, assailants used the lists to mark Sikh houses with an "S".[60] Because most mob members were illiterate, Congress Party officials provided help reading the lists and leading the mobs to Sikh homes and businesses in other neighbourhoods.[57] With the lists, the mobs could pinpoint the location of Sikhs they otherwise would have missed.[57]" - Wikipedia If there is such resentment towards the Sikhs (even though, historically both communities have been on very good terms), there is way more hatred against the Muslims. These organized killing can happen against Muslims if something happens in the future. But it's also about self-respect, I don't want to live in a place where I'm considered a second class citizen.
  15. Both the parties are complicit in massacres. If they can target the minority the population will be polarized and the majority will vote in their favor. The indifference and apathy are the biggest enablers. Most Indians are not actively engaged in violence but don't care at all about the oppression of other communities. They dig their head in sand and refuse to believe it. Denial is one of the last stages of genocide, after everything has happened. Mass murders go unpunished in India. There have been no convicts for the Nellie Massacre. "The impunity enjoyed by the perpetrators of the Nellie massacre further inspired the 1984 Sikh massacre, the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992, the Bombay riots of 1992 and the 2002 Gujarat pogrom." I fear you are going to see similar massacres in the future. This is not ancient history, all this happened less than 50 years ago. People who suffered and the people who perpetrated these are still alive. There is an entire neighborhood, Tilak Vihar, in Delhi for the widows and children of the '84 Sikh massacre. These Sikhs settled in Delhi coming as refugees from Pakistan in '47. The majority allowed more than 3000 Sikhs to get killed in the capital alone. Thousands of mothers don't even know if their children are alive or dead because they "disappeared". Thousands of people are asking for justice to be served to those who committed unspeakable crimes against them. Yet, whenever minorities try to describe their suffering they are told to "don't generalize", "<insert minority> did some bad stuff too", "majority is good", and "don't defame India". Some people don't realize their insecurity is stopping important conversations from happening. It is shameful.