Radical Opinion on Abortion?

[Matt8800]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:27 PM, Flowerfaeiry said:

I don't want to stir anything up, I simply have a thought I wanted to share with you. From what I've seen, pro-choice arguments seem to stem from the idea that a baby in a womb is not a life, and as such, aborting it is not killing a life. Then pro-life says that it is indeed a life, and that we cannot excuse murder, no matter what. 

I don't think that it is debatable whether or not a baby is a life inside of the womb. When actually looked at deeply it becomes obvious that abortion is indeed, killing a life. I think instead, we need to start accepting that abortion is a type of killing that is acceptable to some people. While pro-life side will still continue to argue that this murder of unborn babies is wrong, at least pro-choice will not be riding their argument on a falsity. 

Abortion is killing a life, a killing that society is generally okay with for a variety of reasons. 

I think that if pro-choice would simply accept the fact that abortion is killing instead of taking some round about way of looking at it, we may start to see more peace around the issue. 

@Flowerfaeiry People say that because they havent thought it through. People say they value "human life" but really what they mean to say is human consciousness. That is why we throw out the placenta. Even though the placenta is human life, it is not conscious.

Terminating a fetus before the mechanisms in the brain that enable consciousness is formed is morally equivalent to removing a mole. People get confused because their biologically driven sentimentalism regarding taking care of the young hijacks their reasoning abilities.

It is only an ethical issue AFTER consciousness is present.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Matt8800

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Why do you want to make stuff up? Why not just sit in awareness?

What's the difference?

[Leo Gura]

Big difference from the human POV when you are lost in moralistic fantasies.

[Bodigger]

5 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

It is only an ethical issue AFTER consciousness is present.

When is consciousness present?

[Matt8800]

18 hours ago, Bodigger said:

When is consciousness present?

@Bodigger Usually around 5 months. Before that, its merely biomass.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/04/when-does-your-baby-become-conscious

[Matt8800]

On 1/7/2020 at 2:42 AM, Codrina said:

Abortion is killing. Killing is destruction.

Life is a play between creation and destruction. We all kill something every day.

When people will be able to look at the tomato plant in their garden with the same degree of compassion as they look at an infant then we will be in a truly blessed world. 

I had two abortions in this lifetime - condom malfunction. Having a child without the possibility to care for it properly was not something I wanted.

There is a lot of destruction in the world because of unconscious parents. I did not want to be one of them.

@remember If abortion is killing, is throwing out the placenta "killing"? Whats the difference between a placenta and a fetus that is not developed enough to be conscious?

[remember]

@Matt8800 i never said it is killing although it is - it is the same as killing a fly or a worm - a placenta is not autonomous from the woman it is part of and so is the fetus, until it is able to live by itself, although we could discuss here when autonomy begins. for a lot of women probably connection to autonomous human entity starts at the moment of autonomous heartbeat. but real autonomy starts only after more than a decade - so you could ask when the state of the fetus even ends and consciousness begins.

Edited January 9, 2020 by remember

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, remember said:

@Matt8800 i never said it is killing although it is - it is the same as killing a fly or a worm - a placenta is not autonomous from the woman it is part of and so is the fetus, until it is able to live by itself, although we could discuss here when autonomy begins. for a lot of women probably connection to autonomous human entity starts at the moment of autonomous heartbeat. but real autonomy starts only after more than a decade - so you could ask when the state of the fetus even ends and consciousness begins.

@remember The notion of autonomy is nonsensical when referring to a unconscious lump of biomass. A fly (like all living beings) has autonomy because it is conscious.

If you look at the definition of autonomy, you'll see it has no relation to whether a pump pumps fluid around the biomass. Autonomy begins when one exerts their will.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/autonomy

Edited January 10, 2020 by Matt8800

[Leo Gura]

Notice how this issue involves a struggle to draw a boundary/duality between: alive vs not-alive, conscious vs not-conscious, autonomous vs not-autonomous, part of the mother vs not part of the mother, fully human vs biomass, human vs fly, right vs wrong, moral vs immoral, etc.

The mind wants to ground reality in such boundaries, but all such boundaries are untenable because reality is ONE. Which is why you struggle and struggle to draw those boundaries but will always fail. And why people disagree so much about where the boundaries lie.

There is no point at which a baby is conscious or alive or autonomous or human. There is no point at which a baby is separate from a pine tree. Getting that takes you meta. Learning this lesson is one of the most important things Actualized.org has to teach you. Stop falling into the trap of objectifying dualistic distinctions. If you manage to do that, your mind will be set radically free and peace can come to the world.

Or, continue fighting over imagined dualities.

[jimwell]

On 1/7/2020 at 6:42 PM, Codrina said:

When people will be able to look at the tomato plant in their garden with the same degree of compassion as they look at an infant then we will be in a truly blessed world. 

You mean human extinction makes the world truly blessed?

[jimwell]

The spiritual playboy disagrees with you.

[Codrina]

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

You mean human extinction makes the world truly blessed?

 cute. I did not mean that at all. I am not sure you actually read my post.

 I do not disagree with Osho. I have been saying that for more than 10 years. I have been saying that people should take a test before being allowed to have children. You have to take a test to drive a car. Raising a healthy child is much more complicated than driving a car.

Now, let me explain this, if you actually read my post and are still confused. 

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

When people will be able to look at the tomato plant in their garden with the same degree of compassion as they look at an infant then we will be in a truly blessed world.

 I had the most beautiful garden last year. I took a piece of land in the back of the house where I had moved, which the neighbors were treating like their own personal garbage bin, dug it up, fed the soil, and planted everything, from all sorts of leafy greens to fruits and veggies. It was the most amazing experience to see it grow and thrive. It made space for a lot of other life as well. At one point it was caterpillar paradise. And it was enough food for everybody. Me, my neighbors and them. 

When you grow a garden, you have to plant some species inside. Like tomatoes. I had planted seeds and kept them on the window sill until they grew strong enough to be planted outside.  Because you are not guaranteed that all seeds will sprout, you have to plant more than you will actually use. So, when the time came to move my tomatoes outside I found myself having to choose the bigger and stronger ones to live, and the smaller ones to turn to food for the soil. It was not an easy choice to make. It was a possibility for life which ended. Just like an abortion. 

People are so involved in their own species, they forget everything else is just as precious. When we will look at all life with the same eyes we look at a human life, when we will realize the sacredness of all, then we will be in a blessed world.

[Matt8800]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Notice how this issue involves a struggle to draw a boundary/duality between: alive vs not-alive, conscious vs not-conscious, autonomous vs not-autonomous, part of the mother vs not part of the mother, fully human vs biomass, human vs fly, right vs wrong, moral vs immoral, etc.

The mind wants to ground reality in such boundaries, but all such boundaries are untenable because reality is ONE. Which is why you struggle and struggle to draw those boundaries but will always fail. And why people disagree so much about where the boundaries lie.

There is no point at which a baby is conscious or alive or autonomous or human. There is no point at which a baby is separate from a pine tree. Getting that takes you meta. Learning this lesson is one of the most important things Actualized.org has to teach you. Stop falling into the trap of objectifying dualistic distinctions. If you manage to do that, your mind will be set radically free and peace can come to the world.

Or, continue fighting over imagined dualities.

@Leo Gura Truth! But very few people can grasp the implications. If they did, their animal instincts would be even more horrified

Edited January 10, 2020 by Matt8800

[StephenK]

2 hours ago, Codrina said:

So, when the time came to move my tomatoes outside I found myself having to choose the bigger and stronger ones to live, and the smaller ones to turn to food for the soil. It was not an easy choice to make. It was a possibility for life which ended. Just like an abortion. 

I've killed my share of insects/pests to keep my veggies alive and thriving. Even the compost one enriches the soil with is made of the remains of once thriving, living organisms -- now long-dead decomposed microorganisms, insects, feces, plants etc. Even the veggies you do end up eating get turned into shit inside your bowels. A vegetable garden is truly a marvelous example of life and death on grand display. Life growing out of death. 

[jimwell]

2 hours ago, Codrina said:

 cute. I did not mean that at all. I am not sure you actually read my post.

 I do not disagree with Osho. I have been saying that for more than 10 years. I have been saying that people should take a test before being allowed to have children. You have to take a test to drive a car. Raising a healthy child is much more complicated than driving a car.

Now, let me explain this, if you actually read my post and are still confused. 

 I had the most beautiful garden last year. I took a piece of land in the back of the house where I had moved, which the neighbors were treating like their own personal garbage bin, dug it up, fed the soil, and planted everything, from all sorts of leafy greens to fruits and veggies. It was the most amazing experience to see it grow and thrive. It made space for a lot of other life as well. At one point it was caterpillar paradise. And it was enough food for everybody. Me, my neighbors and them. 

When you grow a garden, you have to plant some species inside. Like tomatoes. I had planted seeds and kept them on the window sill until they grew strong enough to be planted outside.  Because you are not guaranteed that all seeds will sprout, you have to plant more than you will actually use. So, when the time came to move my tomatoes outside I found myself having to choose the bigger and stronger ones to live, and the smaller ones to turn to food for the soil. It was not an easy choice to make. It was a possibility for life which ended. Just like an abortion. 

People are so involved in their own species, they forget everything else is just as precious. When we will look at all life with the same eyes we look at a human life, when we will realize the sacredness of all, then we will be in a blessed world.

That's a long explanation. Yes, just be conscious the tomato and chicken wing you're eating are sacred. I always say "Sorry and Thank you!" right before eating meat. A short way to say "Sorry for taking your life. And Thank you for giving me life.". Now, you made me consider saying it if I eat a tomato.

[remember]

14 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

@remember The notion of autonomy is nonsensical when referring to a unconscious lump of biomass. A fly (like all living beings) has autonomy because it is conscious.

If you look at the definition of autonomy, you'll see it has no relation to whether a pump pumps fluid around the biomass. Autonomy begins when one exerts their will.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/autonomy

how brazen to give it to an embryo but not to the plazenta. sometimes people even forget there is a woman around it. 

[Natasha]

@Flowerfaeiry I was conceived out of wedlock and back in the day women were encouraged by the family to quietly go through with the abortion to save their reputation or be shamed. My Mom chose to have me. Yes, my ego would say I'm glad I was introduced into the world, yet the truth of the matter is, it wouldn't have really mattered either way. The Universe will do what it does and we are it, so it is what it is without getting too conceptual on the subject 

[Matt8800]

1 hour ago, remember said:

how brazen to give it to an embryo but not to the plazenta. sometimes people even forget there is a woman around it. 

@remember Exactly. The only opinion that matters is - does the woman choose for herself to raise a child or not. If not, she should be able to abort the fetus without a second thought if that is her choice.

[DrewNows]

@Natasha aww love the profile pic! 

[Natasha]

2 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Natasha aww love the profile pic! 

Thank you!