If I see some traits of Feminism as a threat or unfair is because I´m biased?

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Annoynymous  Feminism is a fight for women's rights! If women are the ones fighting for the rights, guess who's giving the rights? Men!

Have there been feminist movements in your country? Did they succeed or fail? If they failed, why so?

This is the same as saying it's because of kind-hearted robbers deciding not to take your stuff, that you have your stuff in the first place. Therefore, thank the robbers for all the stuff you have. 

 

[Eph75]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Annoynymous [...] If women are the ones fighting for the rights, guess who's giving the rights? Men! 

So from your sense making, women are taking something that inherently belongs to men? 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Eph75

[Parththakkar12]

No! It's like saying that if you don't have the police to catch the robbers, you're pretty screwed as the robbers are armed. This is the case as it's a system by men, and men are physically stronger than women.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Parththakkar12]

3 minutes ago, Eph75 said:

So from you sense making, women are taking something that inherently belongs to men? 

The concept of equal rights for men and women is fairly recent. What belongs to whom, is a subjective conversation which depends on the time, and the perceptions of good and evil at that time. Always keep in mind that human rights aren't an absolute, they're a human creation and they weren't originally created equally for men and women. Equal rights for men and women is a fairly recent conception, and both men and women made it happen!

[Annoynymous]

13 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Annoynymous  Feminism is a fight for women's rights! If women are the ones fighting for the rights, guess who's giving the rights? Men!

Have there been feminist movements in your country? Did they succeed or fail? If they failed, why so?

Right is not a tangible thing that is finite and be traded as some material. People CREATE rights. It"s the ego of some men that thinks they are the one to give or take away rights.

In my country, many women are protesting and in many cases, bleeding.

They failed in many cases with some success. Yet progress is happening.

Remember, half of the population is women and if they decide, they can have their right even without the support of men, although it won't be healthy but reverse patriarchy.

Patriarchy and masculine/feminine energy is not the same thing in my POV. 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Annoynymous

[Parththakkar12]

4 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

Remember, half of the population is women and if they decide, they can have their right even without the support of men, although it won't be healthy and reverse patriarchy.

Then why did women choose to get oppressed instead of creating their own system? Women have always had the option to not be reliant on the patriarchy and create their own system (if they could), but they chose not to.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Annoynymous]

@Parththakkar12 nobody choose to get oppressed.

As for men, some are more courageous than others. Same goes for women.

 

[Parththakkar12]

4 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

nobody choose to get oppressed.

Exactly! Women rely on the traditionally tyrannical patriarchy for survival, cuz there is no other system. That's why they rely on men to give them rights.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Annoynymous]

@Parththakkar12 lol

I don't wish to participate in this stupidity of circular logic.

Good luck

[Parththakkar12]

How's it circular? I thought you were the one claiming that women can get their rights with zero help from men!

You guys, I understand the barbarity of the situation I'm describing. I recognize that women have not had it well in history. If male privilege is dripping from me (even I feel it now) that's right! I am a privileged male and I have the balls to own said privilege. But the good news is that I care about women enough to stay tapped into the consciousness of this discussion the whole time and doing internal work alongside! It's important for me to understand the feminist perspective, that's why I'm playing devil's advocate here to contrast it with the opposing perspective.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

@Parththakkar12 So sneaky you have sneaked yourself. Very impressive. 

[Farnaby]

This is definitely a very controversial topic. I can only speak from my experience and POV which probably is biased as every POV is. 

Where I live, there's lately been a huge expansion of the feminist movement, and like with everything else, it has it's light and shadow. 

IME, every group is composed of heterogenous people, even if there is "group thinking", etc. Therefore, what probably describes the feminist movement best is a continuum with man-hating women/men on one extreme, while most of the people will find themselves having a more neutral and open-minded attitude.

That being said, I've definitely noticed a lot of unhealed trauma related to men in many feminists (but I'm sure they are not the majority). You can almost feel it energetically, especially if you play devils advocate and don't go with the mainstream group thinking. I've even heard "feminists" say that men are not welcome in their debate groups, because they have so many privileges and don't need to be there. That seems really silly and counterproductive if you ask me. 

Lately there has been the tendency to see "heteropatriarchy" as the cause for almost any problem. Some feminists seem to interpret everything from this lens, confirming their theory almost everywhere. As with anything, if you look at the world from a certain ideology, you will find proof to confirm your worldview, but that doesn't mean it's true. 

My country is a pretty safe place for women and yet I get the feeling that many women have become more scared to live a normal life (go out at night, etc.) than they actually would if they only took into account objective facts (like statistics of abuse, rape, etc.). This results in overprotective politics becoming very popular, treating women as victims who can never feel completely safe. It even results in attempts to change laws in order to believe a woman's testimony against a man even if there is no proof. Where I live, if a woman says you have been violent against her, you immediately spend 1-2 nights in "jail". IMO this is against the very concept of justice, where everyone deserves a fair trial and it even goes against what feminism is really about -> equal rights and opportunities. 

However, I can't deny that there are still many people that treat women unfairly and that's why I said I don't think a black/white perspective is close to truth. 

[Parththakkar12]

4 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

Right is not a tangible thing that is finite and be traded as some material. People CREATE rights. It"s the ego of some men that thinks they are the one to give or take away rights.

A right is defined along with rules on what to do if that right gets violated. All of this legislation has to go through an authority which everyone abides by. So it's this authority (which the community has put in place) which gives people rights and decides what to do when a violation occurs. Now, this authority will act according to what the overall community wants! The important people in the authorities/communities have predominantly been men, in the case of women's rights movements. That's what I meant when I said 'Men give women rights in response to feminism'

Five hundred years ago, consider a situation in which there's a king who is this authority. Women are treated like the property of men. Now lets say, a group of women does a feminist protest. What do you think the king will do? He'll crush it completely with violence! It will not work.

Lets say the king was nice to his subjects, and took a poll of the people on this issue. People voting, predominantly male. What do you think will the outcome of the poll be? Will the men be like 'We love our wives, so let them be free'? Nope. The response will be more like 'Crush this nonsense! We need women in the kitchen cooking for our children, while we work hard outside bringing home food.' And that is exactly what will happen! No conversation about 'rights for women'.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Leo Gura]

Women had less rights because for the majority of mankind's evolution the state of consciousness was so low that physical force determined rights and power hierarchies. Survival was unbelievably brutal and physical. The strongest dominated the weakest and established "rights" and rules which served them.

But now we are starting to move away from brutal animalistic survival and now the physical strength difference between men and women is becoming less and less important.

It is not a matter of men deciding to give women rights, but rather the entire species is evolving in consciousness and society is developing hard and soft infrastructure which allows for non-violent means of existence. This is not a process anyone controls. Men do not control it. Both men and women are puppets of larger evolutionary forces which drive the entire universe towards greater consciousness and love. Those who are physically weaker are treated with more compassion. This is true not just of women but children, the sick, the disabled, the mentally ill, animals, the environment, etc.

Once you are conscious enough it is no longer tenable to dominate others even if you happen to be physically bigger or stronger than them. It hurts your own consciousness to do so. Ego is slowly realizing the existential equality of all beings by looking past the material differences -- which are not fundamentally important.

Rather than seeing all this as a fight for rights, see it as an expansion of consciousness, love, and self-identity.

If you were highly conscious and had high Self-Love, you would not have a desire to dominate anyone, even if it gave you some temporary material gain. The material gain is inferior to Selflessness.

[Ananta]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Rather than seeing all this as a fight for rights, see it as an expansion of consciousness, love, and self-identity.

If you were highly conscious and had high Self-Love, you would not have a desire to dominate anyone

Love this!   

[Preety_India]

 

Patriarchy was never a beautiful thing no matter how much ever you defend it. It was a system designed specifically for sexual dominance on women so that they can be used for the purpose of men. 

We need a system of equality neither patriarchy nor matriarchy. 

It's important to uphold each other's human rights first before considering the gender. 

The world will be a better place if we considered a woman a human being first and then a woman. 

The identity with a gender is a part of the low conscious ego trying to protect and prove itself. 

Rights cannot be given by men or women, they are protected by laws and a system put in place by the majority. It's created by people. 

And it's  stupid thinking that women chose to get oppressed. Nobody chooses to get oppressed. Women were subjugated and subjected to oppression in mass numbers and then convinced and manipulated to believe that this was the only they could live. That's oppression, not choosing oppression, just like nobody chooses to get raped!  Get your head out of the sand. In old times, the physically powerful dominated the weaker ones and established a game of survival where certain rules were made for survival and these rules were made in the favor of men to suit their needs in the survival game. We don't need that anymore. 

Women creating their own systems?.... Gender doesn't work like that. There is nothing like a male system or a female system. Older systems were male dominated because men dominated women, simple. Once the domination is gone, we can have a system which is more equal and gender neutral. Women don't need to create their own systems which excludes men because that's equally as low conscious as patriarchy. 

We need a custom fit. A system that values the rights of everyone, weak or strong, men, women, trans, mentally ill, disabled, young, old and this should be an all encompassing and accommodating system that accommodates for the needs of everyone. 

Anyone who thinks that such a system is not viable is operating from low consciousness. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Preety_India

[Arcangelo]

Yeah, but I think that we are already living in a dark era for men. Men will be oppressed before we get to that nice beautiful equal system you guys talk about. It's like it's the women turn to oppress men, they will and then men will have to fight for their rights just like women did. We had the patriarchy, now we are moving into the matriarchy, we will find out that the matriarchy is not as good as we thought it would be, and then we will move into that nice beautiful equal system you guys talk about.

There's already a men rights movement. Why? Because men already feel they are being oppressed.

 

 

Arc

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Arcangelo said:

There's already a men rights movement. Why? Because men already feel they are being oppressed.

No, men are not being oppressed. The ego just perceives equalizing as oppression because a self-biased mind doesn't see a difference.

If you owned slaves 200 years ago your ego-mind would perceive abolition as unfair and oppressive. Because it is from the POV of a slave owner. The slave owner feels fully entitled to own slaves. To take way his slaves would appear to him as robbery or debasement of the natural order.

Equality is a radical thing. It means the ego has to surrender what it has taken for granted as its own.

It is a projection of a low consciousness mind that if it gives up domination it will be dominated by those who complained about being dominated by it. The key is to realize that those you dominated may not be interested in dominating you back, they just want a non-dominating dynamic on all sides.

[Parththakkar12]

@Arcangelo I think there's some truth to what you're saying. I'm not saying that men can't overcome this, but it's important to look at and consciously overcome. Raised by a single mother, I know too well what this is like!

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Javfly33]

6 hours ago, Preety_India said:

 

Patriarchy was never a beautiful thing no matter how much ever you defend it. It was a system designed specifically for sexual dominance on women so that they can be used for the purpose of men. 

 

I agree that Patriarchy is not a consciouss system. However a lot of males nowdays just go against feminist because they feel they are being accused of having been on the "priviliged" side. Nowdays I don´t that much anymore because I know that consicouss feminists are about making men and women equal in social society and not waste energy on hating men.

Patriarchy has been a system for survival, hasn´t been fair? Of course not. Does it have to change? Yes. 

For example, If I had to choose in what gender should I be born let´s say 600 years ago, I wouldn´t be sure If I´d choose men or women. If I choose women I would be subjugated to my men´s rules and I would be considered inferior. I wouldn´t be able to have a free life and probably I wouldn´t even pursue much intellectual roads even if i would be motivated to do it. Probably i won´t be able even to read a book.

However If i choose men, I wouldn´t have a easy life either:

There´s no doubt women have been oppresed. What it´s a little bit lol it´s to give the impression that men have been "priviliged" by the Patriarchy. The "priviliged" men by the patriarchy has been the 1%. Royalty and whoever the 1% have been depending on the era of time. In the late 150 years this 1% have been exponentially growing but also have been the awareness for giving equal rights to women.

The rest (99% of males) have been living in brutal poor conditions, with massive obligations of having and maintaning and family and of course, with the obligation to go to die and get tortured to death at war. It seems there is no feminist movement talks about this "privilege" what they talk about how the Patriarchy subjugated women through all history. Again, of course the Patriarchy subjugate women! I´m just saying Men were also pretty fucked by it! 

As I said, I don´t know how much people would choose 1000 years ago to be born women or men. It´s wheter you value your freedom (choose men) more and you are motivated to risk having a life with fear or pain and responsabilities (war and social pressure) or value more a safe life (women) and choose that before having freedom and you are motivated to risk not having freedom and considered inferior.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Javfly33