EternalForest

Is it impossible to prove the existence of other realities?

54 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Your doubts are understandable, but actually the one who's lost in the delusions of mind is you!

Doubt is an activity of the mind. Both-sides-ism is an activity of the mind. Other is an activity of the mind. And counting is an activity of the mind.

Yes, it is absolutely possible to become conscious that reality is total, one, and infinite. It is also possible to become conscious that "other" is an illusion of the mind.

It is possible to become conscious that there is no difference between zero, one, many, and infinity. Reality contains within it an infinite number of sub-realities -- which is what infinity means. All of it is ONE.

One vs many is a duality.

My certainty in knowing there is no other is simply my consciousness that I am God, and I am all alone. There can only be one Absolute Infinity. I created all of you and I created myself.

The realization that "other" is an illusion is central to enlightenment. You are not really enlightened unless you are conscious that all "others" are literally yourself.

You are the only thing in existence. I am just a figment of your imagination. You created me. And I created you. Ta-da!

This requires a deep enlightenment. A radical state of nonduality.

There is no blindspot in understanding. Enlightenment is Absolute understanding of everything that exists. It is omniscience. You have 100% unmediated access to the entire universe. Nothing is hidden.

What I am saying is way beyond the mind.

If you tried some 5-MeO-DMT, you might understand.

You guys are still underestimating just how radical total enlightenment is. A glimpse is nowhere near the rock bottom. Lots of people have minor glimpses. Very few people have gone all the way.

Listen, I understand my limitations here. I am still very much ego identified. 

But my impression was that you are too, but have had many glimpses through psychedelics. 

So, given that what you talk about is not rooted in the present but always in reference to past experiences (correct me if I'm wrong), how can you know right now as you are identified with Leo-ness?

How can you know 100% for sure that the mind is not deluding you by creating an interpretation of your past experiences that is comprehensible to the mind and others who read it? And how could you know any of the past actually happened at all?

And could God not create a secondary delusion, that to you feels 100% like absolute truth but would just be another delusion? And could that secondary delusion be what you're describing right now?

Now, I'm not saying it's not true. But I'm asking, do you have 100% certainty that what you're saying is absolutely true... or could it just seem true in your experience?

I just feel like pinning anything down in the realm of thoughts will always be a concession, and may be totally delusion at every step.

So, it is not so much about doubt but a surrendering of the mind and admit that it cannot know anything for sure. And a total embrace of the mystery of what is and our own perpetual state of innocence that never dies.

Edited by Emerald

Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/thediamondnet 

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39 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I just feel like pinning anything down in the realm of thoughts will always be a concession, and may be totally delusion at every step.

It's like taking too many photos on a vacation to some famous city just so your Ego-Mind can go home and chin-wag to others about your trip rather than just being present during the vacation even if so many photos don't get taken.  And when you're staring through the camera gathering all those show-and-tell pieces, you're cheapening your actual experience of Athens or Rome or wherever you are.  I feel like concepts work the same way with being.  We talk and conceptualize our way further and further away from being and back into the Ego-Mind's clutches.  It's like -- hey dude I have 100 pictures of Athens and all I really did the whole time I was there is look through the lens of a camera.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

Leo currently has me banned from posting or responding to PM messages.

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What @Leo Gurahas posted is actually pretty obvious. It’s only confusing when it is taken out of context. We will build our understanding on a foundation of presumptions. This tends to lead to confusion when we try to understand it according to the contents of our already existing knowledge & experience as consciousness being limited to the body/mind and the world being independent of that body mind. We don’t see it is all I, and implies that aloneness.

Many also associate this aloneness with isolation as well, but that is not the case. Aloneness has a sense of intimacy, and greater sense of harmony/communion. 

But really it is all right in plain site. Direct perception or direct experience reveals it as rather obvious indeed. 

Edited by Jack River

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2 hours ago, Emerald said:

But my impression was that you are too, but have had many glimpses through psychedelics. 

So, given that what you talk about is not rooted in the present but always in reference to past experiences (correct me if I'm wrong), how can you know right now as you are identified with Leo-ness?

That's a good question. Right this moment I am identified with Leo-ness. But that does not affect what I have realized about God.

Awakening is not a binary thing. It comes in degrees, and there is also a significant component of conceptual knowledge when speaking of it because the mind has to make sense of the Absolute to bring it back down to Earth and then to communicate it.

I am not enlightened, but I have done enough work to know the things I said about God. Whether you believe me is irrelevant from my POV. It will never change what I know about God.

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How can you know 100% for sure that the mind is not deluding you by creating an interpretation of your past experiences that is comprehensible to the mind and others who read it? And how could you know any of the past actually happened at all?

Look, it's not so complicated. Each awakening experience leaves an undeniable residue of understanding on the soul. I can never forget what I have seen. It has subtly changed my understanding of the world, even if I'm not in a permanent state of Sahaja Samadhi.

It's like if you left The Matrix for a day and then came back. Well, you can never forget what you saw and you can never believe in The Matrix illusion entirely as you did before. I have done this dozens of times to the point where I now have a solid conceptual model of how The Matrix illusion works.

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And could God not create a secondary delusion, that to you feels 100% like absolute truth but would just be another delusion? And could that secondary delusion be what you're describing right now?

No, Absolute Truth is Absolute. It is self-validating. This will not make sense until you're there.

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Now, I'm not saying it's not true. But I'm asking, do you have 100% certainty that what you're saying is absolutely true... or could it just seem true in your experience?

Nothing I say is the Truth. All my teachings are symbolic pointers and metaphors.

The things I have said about God are very accurate (considering the limitations of language). You will understand this once you gain more experience interfacing with God.

Yes, of course my mind is still prone to self-deception and ego. That is always a thing to be watchful of. But direct consciousness of the Absolute is what it is. I do my best to communicate it accurately. If I discover a higher truth in the future, I will let you know.

It would really help if you did some 5-MeO-DMT. It's hard for you guys to understand how I know the things I know because you have not tried 5-MeO-DMT. It is outside your realm of possibility that 5-MeO-DMT is possible. So anything I say about it will seem like I am deluded. In fact it is you who are deluded, but you cannot know that because you are deluded. And there's nothing I can do to help you. You're stuck until you awaken.

You also have to understand that I cross-reference all of my insights against 100s of world-class sources. So it's not like I'm making this shit up. Everything I said in the God video has been said by sages and mystics for 5000 years.

I'm not really sure what more you want of me? Do you want me force feed 5-MeO-DMT up your corn hole? Cause I've basically done everything else for you here as far as a teacher can do. I even found you a magic pill that will save you 20 years of meditation work. But you still refuse to take it.

It is the nature of God that it is incredible. So of course you are incredulous. You just don't realize how grand it is yet.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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@Leo Gura

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just like in a video game, all the objects of the simulation are ONE simulation. Objects have no independent existence.

Non duality makes sense now.

Everyone is the same pixel, geometric shapes. But everyone is too focused on their self to know that they are the same pixel and geometric shapes.

 

That is why you and other mystics say that everything is literally you. And when you hurt someone or something, you are hurting your self. 

You said that religions are tailored to the culture they were founded. 

There can be a religion of video games. Spreading non duality. And you can be the prophet!

Edited by saffron

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@saffron I hear Fortnite is more popular than Jesus ;)


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It would really help if you did some 5-MeO-DMT. It's hard for you guys to understand how I know the things I know because you have not tried 5-MeO-DMT. It is outside your realm of possibility that 5-MeO-DMT is possible. So anything I say about it will seem like I am deluded. In fact it is you who are deluded, but you cannot know that because you are deluded. And there's nothing I can do to help you. You're stuck until you awaken.

Don't we all feel this way anyways; namely, everybody but me is more or less deluded?  Everybody feels this way on some level.  We differ in how cocky we are about saying it publically. 

Edited by Joseph Maynor

Leo currently has me banned from posting or responding to PM messages.

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4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, "reality" is the ultimate super-set. There can only be one. Anything you imagine beyond reality automatically becomes included in reality. Because reality is EVERYTHING, leaving no more room for anything else to be. Reality leaves nothing out. In the same way that if I say, "all possible movies", that means you can't imagine any movie which I have already not accounted for. Any movie you could image or create, I've already accounted for by saying, "all possible movies".

Now imagine, "all possible possibilities". That's it! There can be nothing more. Everything has been accounted for. That is reality.

There is no village or you. The village is a hallucination hallucinated by a hallucination. When you "die", the village dies too. The village is just a part of you.

Stop assuming the existence of an external material world. There is no such thing. That's just an image in your mind. When your mind dies, so will the material external world.

Everything is occurring nowhere, and it is nothing. Nothing has ever occurred. You only imagine it has.

It's all infinite hallucinations occurring nowhere and nowhen.

A hallucination is something which is, but isn't.

Yet here you are Leo, typing up these responses as if it mattered, spending your life in front of the computer, every response you made it here negates life. How long are you going to torture yourself being stuck in your own is/isn't, nowhere/everywhere, nothing/everything mind loop, don't you see your hypocrisy?


lifecraft.love - Mastery of life.

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The more you have going on, the more “you just can’t get away alone” - so the more you must. Like desire, if we don’t care for this, it’s hard to pinpoint the unbalance because it’s foundational and all encompassing of reality. The eyes can never see it.  

Just gotta schedule it, even if it’s on the calendar a month out. The peace from concrete planning it is enough to trigger the relief. Life in this era is seriously complex and very taxing on us. Sometimes an intense disciplined retreat is need, and sometimes you just have to get the fuck out of here for a few days. The hard hard factor is, that isn’t clear until you’ve pulled the trigger on it and done it. Alone. Entire days full of everything you enjoy. No working, no thinking. Creative light fun stuff, nature, spa pampering, whatever brings ya back to life. You can’t just march forward day after day after day months, years on end - especially when you are making big moves forward, new ventures, transcendent to where we have been. Not getting away - it’s the unseen holding you back. Got’s ta do it. Then you can see it. 

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56 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Don't we all feel this way anyways; namely, everybody but me is more or less deluded?  Everybody feels this way on some level.  We differ in how cocky we are about saying it publically. 

That is the irony of the human condition, and the irony of awakening.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a good question. Right this moment I am identified with Leo-ness. But that does not affect what I have realized about God.

Awakening is not a binary thing. It comes in degrees, and there is also a significant component of conceptual knowledge when speaking of it because the mind has to make sense of the Absolute to bring it back down to Earth and then to communicate it.

I am not enlightened, but I have done enough work to know the things I said about God. Whether you believe me is irrelevant from my POV. It will never change what I know about God.

Look, it's not so complicated. Each awakening experience leaves an undeniable residue of understanding on the soul. I can never forget what I have seen. It has subtly changed my understanding of the world, even if I'm not in a permanent state of Sahaja Samadhi.

It's like if you left The Matrix for a day and then came back. Well, you can never forget what you saw and you can never believe in The Matrix illusion entirely as you did before. I have done this dozens of times to the point where I now have a solid conceptual model of how The Matrix illusion works.

No, Absolute Truth is Absolute. It is self-validating. This will not make sense until you're there.

Nothing I say is the Truth. All my teachings are symbolic pointers and metaphors.

The things I have said about God are very accurate (considering the limitations of language). You will understand this once you gain more experience interfacing with God.

Yes, of course my mind is still prone to self-deception and ego. That is always a thing to be watchful of. But direct consciousness of the Absolute is what it is. I do my best to communicate it accurately. If I discover a higher truth in the future, I will let you know.

It would really help if you did some 5-MeO-DMT. It's hard for you guys to understand how I know the things I know because you have not tried 5-MeO-DMT. It is outside your realm of possibility that 5-MeO-DMT is possible. So anything I say about it will seem like I am deluded. In fact it is you who are deluded, but you cannot know that because you are deluded. And there's nothing I can do to help you. You're stuck until you awaken.

You also have to understand that I cross-reference all of my insights against 100s of world-class sources. So it's not like I'm making this shit up. Everything I said in the God video has been said by sages and mystics for 5000 years.

I'm not really sure what more you want of me? Do you want me force feed 5-MeO-DMT up your corn hole? Cause I've basically done everything else for you here as far as a teacher can do. I even found you a magic pill that will save you 20 years of meditation work. But you still refuse to take it.

It is the nature of God that it is incredible. So of course you are incredulous. You just don't realize how grand it is yet.

I'm not trying to get you to prove anything to me. And I'm not refusing to take 5-MEO or something like that. I just won't seek it out because I won't take legal risks since I have children, and for this juncture in my life it would be unwise to do anything where there is a risk of my getting caught and spending huge chunks of their childhood in prison. I know this is highly unlikely, but I'm not about to take any kind of risk.

Also, I don't think that you're making anything up. I believe you 100% that this is what you've experienced. I don't have any doubts in my mind as to that matter. 

I'm just asking you if it could be possible that, even a person who's had many experiences with God (and even a person who is enlightened), could 1. still be living in a delusion, but an alternate delusion that feels like absolute Truth, and 2. Once they're out of the experience and crystalize it into a memory and belief, could be deluded in this way.

So, I'm not saying anything about you personally, and I'm not saying that what you're saying is definitely untrue. 

Instead, I'm asking for my own contemplation purposes, as I have had two direct experiences of God in the past and saw the Truth from a state of completely uninterested in spirituality. So, I know that the experience is phenomenologically real and can be experienced as I was not clouded by wishful thinking or confirmation bias.

But also, since I am not directly experiencing that, could I (if I think about the limits of what I know) potentially be remembering a past that never happened as perhaps there is only now? And even in the experience, as true and clear as it felt, could I have potentially been interacting with a secondary delusion despite how true it felt? 

I'm asking you because you seem very sure and like you know. But my impression is that no matter how much we feel like we know, we'll be forever innocent in terms of actually knowing.

But again, I know my limitations here. I am not able to experience Truth, God, or oneness right now. So, to me, it seems like none of this can ever truly be known or even known as absolute. Seemingly, it can just be experienced and taken for what it is.

TLDR: Is true gnosticism possible, or will there always just be agnosticism even if we experience what feels in an absolute way like gnosis?

Edited by Emerald

Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/thediamondnet 

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he pretty much gives you it on his video when he says the ways to get there, don't worry i experienced it without 5-meo, but i went through a gruling process of deconstruction, he's simply stating that 5-meo cuts right through and gives you the direct experience that youd have to work hours to get. so i would say just watch the video again towards the ending and pick a method to verify it for yourself. 

what he says is just that its difficult to explain it to someone who hasn't had an experience of it, initially without an experience. because they are still believing as opposed to using their direct experience. 

also he said another brilliant thing 

he gave all the names of god which is a absoltuely brilliant place to start to looking at what it is. if you research the terms individually i'm sure you could learn loads 

Edited by Aakash

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@Leo Gura a strange loop as it seems.

Becoming conscious of this is so utterly special.  Thanks again Leo..the work we do here is hundreds of years before its time.


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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15 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm not trying to get you to prove anything to me. And I'm not refusing to take 5-MEO or something like that. I just won't seek it out because I won't take legal risks since I have children, and for this juncture in my life it would be unwise to do anything where there is a risk of my getting caught and spending huge chunks of their childhood in prison. I know this is highly unlikely, but I'm not about to take any kind of risk.

You could take a trip to Canada or Mexico where it is legal. Ayahuasca and yopo retreats are legally available in South America. Truffles are legal in parts of Europe. Ibogaine clinics are legal in Canada and south of the border.

You're not the first person with children who has tripped.

I totally understand your caution. But then again, you should also understand that your children are an illusion that you cling to which keeps you trapped inside The Matrix. Your fear of losing them is also an illusion. Seems very real though, so I understand. How do you logically convince a mother that her children are imaginary? Lol

You have to really appreciate how strong your attachment to The Matrix is. It is a thing of awe. You are not going to surrender it easily.

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I'm just asking you if it could be possible that, even a person who's had many experiences with God (and even a person who is enlightened), could 1. still be living in a delusion, but an alternate delusion that feels like absolute Truth, and 2. Once they're out of the experience and crystalize it into a memory and belief, could be deluded in this way.

Yes, as I have said in my self-deception mini-series, self-deception is basically always possible so long as you are thinking.

Even very enlightened masters manage to deluded themselves. That is the nature of the mind.

The thing you should be concerned about though, is your own deception. Because while you are worrying about my deception you are overlooking your own. I spend a lot of time contemplating my own deceptions. It's not a question of IF, it's a question of how much. My mind certainly has deceptions in it. But my understanding of God is pretty decent at this point (of course, according me). And it will get even better with time.

It is a given that anything I say always comes with the caveat: according to me! Since there is no other way it could be. In the end the only thing you get from me is MY perspective on the world. Which is never Absolute. Even though I have directly experienced the Absolute many times now.

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But also, since I am not directly experiencing that, could I (if I think about the limits of what I know) potentially be remembering a past that never happened as perhaps there is only now? And even in the experience, as true and clear as it felt, could I have potentially been interacting with a secondary delusion despite how true it felt? 

Could be. I have no idea what your experience of God entailed. There is a huge range of possible mystical experiences, and full nondual God consciousness is quite rare. Mostly what people have are minor random glimpses and visions, which is nowhere close to full nondual God consciousness.

I speak to you from deep states of consciousness I had which probably very very very few human beings on Earth have ever had, including so called "enlightened ones". It is hard to explain just how powerful 5-MeO-DMT is. I would never trust any human being to naturally attain such degrees of consciousness unless they were a full-time monk with 20-40 years of non-stop industrial-grade practice. And it's not just the 5-MeO-DMT, it's how my brain/mind interfaces with it. Not everyone taking 5-MeO-DMT will have the same astounding results I have. Because my mind is specifically primed for it through years of work, and probably genetic factors.

I am very leery of anyone who claims to be enlightened. Because I know how many degrees of enlightenment there can be. There are only a couple of people in the world who I'd trust to be fully enlightened, and even then, I have my doubts.

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TLDR: Is true gnosticism possible, or will there always just be agnosticism even if we experience what feels in an absolute way like gnosis?

What's possible is becoming Absolute Infinity.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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@Arthur How did that experience affect any fear of death that you had? It would seem like discovering there is literally nothing after death would be fairly frightening, especially if you saw it firsthand.

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@Nahm Beautifully put.

Yes, I believe alone time is some of the most precious and important time we can spend in life. I've had days like you describe, in such total flow and awareness that time became irrelevant and I was feeling abundance, freedom, creativity, etc. I've made a post in the past where I shared a few songs that made me feel truly one with everything for that moment, brief moments of non-duality, if that's possible with music. I really had a spiritual experience with this music, just listening alone taking in the sound. Walking alone in the forest, journaling alone, reflecting and getting to know myself. You should get to know yourself better than anyone else, I think, because you're gonna spend every minute with em, and if you're good friends than life becomes a blast.

But in terms of spirituality, extended periods of quiet alone time have always been where I got my most profound experiences. And profound may not be the best word since I still haven't gotten hardcore with my spirituality and these were scattered session of hour long meditation I did over a long period, and even those weren't always hits but overall I'd say that the spiritual experiences I've had alone over my life have been really beneficial and inspiring.

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@Aakash Thanks, I'll definitely rewatch the video and research all those terms individually using spiritual texts. You could read a book about each one of those terms, so it could take me years to actually get a deep understanding of them all, but I think once I do I'll be able to put the puzzle pieces together a little bit better logically. But direct experience seems to be what eludes me the most, so I'll also be using the other methods mentioned including meditation, self inquiry and retreats.

As said in the video, it's also one of the most tricky topics out there, so I shouldn't feel too bad about being kind of lost, as much as I've already contemplated about this. At the same time though, I shouldn't use that as an excuse to stop seeking and become lazy about it. It's just traps within traps within traps and it's easy to get lost on the wrong path for years before realizing where you went wrong

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