If you self-identify with any upper SD stage, you're CRINGE

[Sincerity]

28 minutes ago, AION said:

Personally I reached tier 3 and I discovered that it is useless to discuss these things with regular humans.

💀

Never change, please. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Sincerity

[Salvijus]

[Heaven]

But Leo..

Just solve this discussion by marking our username with the color we are on the Spiral

[something_else]

 

Quote

But that's not what's happening when people diagnose developmental stages. Pointing out common Stage Green patterns such as egalitarian flattening, conflict-avoidance, or moralistic outrage is a useful diagnostic tool. It’s analyzing the cognitive architecture behind an argument. 

Diagnosing someone's developmental stages can also be quite cringe. It comes across as patronising. Because SD is hierarchal, when you are 'diagnosing' someone with Stage Green blindspots the implication is that you are more developed than them as a person, even if that's not the intention. Obviously that annoys people. If the goal is to help them develop, that's likely a bad strategy. It's better to just point out the flaws in reasoning without actually labelling them as 'Stage green blindspots'.

One of the capacities associated with Yellow is being able to understand people operating from different value systems and communicate in a way that makes sense within their frame. That means showing someone the limitations of their thinking without constantly pointing out, or implying, that they’re lower down the spiral than you.

14 hours ago, LordFall said:

But Spiral Dynamics is explicitly a hierarchical model of cognitive capacity and systemic awareness. Clare Graves and Ken Wilber were clear: Tier 2 is not just "another equal lens to pick from the buffet." Tier 2 represents a massive leap in systemic bandwidth because it is the first tier that can consciously perceive, hold, and integrate all previous stages without being trapped by their dogmas. 

Stage Green fundamentally cannot understand Stage Yellow mechanics. It reflexively interprets Yellow's functional hierarchies and cold pragmatic calculations as "heartless, selfish Stage Orange." Meanwhile, Stage Yellow understands Stage Green completely, recognizes where its empathy is valuable, but also clearly sees its fatal blind spots: its allergy to competence hierarchies, its economic illiteracy, and its tendency toward spiritual bypassing.

If we are talking about the stages theoretically and discretely I think this is valid. But their expressions in practice are never discrete, people exist on a continuous spectrum across the spiral. There's a reason the term used to describe someone's level of development is "centre of gravity is around stage green" rather than someone "is stage green". People may have aspects of stage yellow in their development even if their centre of gravity is around green.

If you are operating from the perspective of "I am yellow and they are green, therefore I am more developed across all domains of life than them" then you are using the model wrong.

Check out the document below, it has shit formatting but I can't find the better version. Cowan specifically warns about people identifying too strongly with Tier 2, and argues that the need to proclaim yourself as Tier 2 can itself display traits that are at odds with what Tier 2 is supposed to represent. He also warns about it becoming a status symbol, and about using the model to look down on people as less developed because they aren’t on the same “Tier 2” plane as you.

https://spiraldynamics-integral.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Cowan-Christopher-First-and-Second-Tier.pdf

Quote

I rarely see deep multi-perspectival points based on a deep understanding or even quest to understand the systems of reality being posted here. It happens but is rare.

I agree that you rarely see people posting on a quest to develop a deep understanding of systems here, but that's hardly surprising. You're ultimately just very unlikely to develop that kind of understanding from a forum debate, and this place is rife with high-level shit-posting and intellectual sparring to boost one's own ego. I'm far from immune to that, in fact I enjoy it.

Aside from that the forum is also really good for giving and receiving more practical advice. But the higher level stuff just isn't something that can be absorbed very well in this format because it doesn't capture attention well enough to keep the thread popular, so people stop posting that kind of content.

Quote

Stage orange are pretty obviously shallow in their points but the format for stage green posts is also pretty basic it goes "my ego dislikes X or Y". Rarely do you see people use systems thinking properly to connect various ideas together and produce unique insights as a result. Do you disagree with this?

I don't really agree with this. I see plenty of people making interesting points across the spiral here. I feel like this demonstrates the issue with building an identity around tier 2. Rather than acknowledge that someone from any level of development may have interesting ideas, you are flattening them all down into caricatures of their development stage.

[Ulax]

When you reach tier 3 and tier 4 you really come to understand yourself as part of a system and transcend the ordinary realms of thinking.

Such that I do not even associate myself with Ulax. Instead I have transcended that identity. So when I associate Ulax with a stage, I am associating a certain handsome being with being tier 3/ coral. Often I simply forget that that is my identity as I have become so transcendent in my thinking.

It is hard to explain to lower stages. It must be experienced to be understood.

But the spirally challenged stages have my sympathies. And I am here to talk if the spirally challenged need emotional support ♥️

[CARDOZZO]

Nah, I'm Coral going to ascend to Tier 3 where hot witches just fall on my lap.

[Zenterus]

@Ulax is the only person on the forum who I've consistently seen exhibit Tier 3 and 4 level thinking without contradiction. @Leo Gura himself privately confided in me that he often reaches out to @Ulax for advice and to validate his awakenings.

Edited 1 hour ago by Zenterus

[AION]

4 hours ago, Sincerity said:

💀

Never change, please. 

Well I did. You have to get your tier 1 ass to Ulax to be teabagged by his tier 3 wisdom.  

[Ramanujan]

 the higher stage you get , the more humble you become