Zenterus

How I Transcended the Pick-Up Paradigm After Nearly 10 years in the Game

20 posts in this topic

This is my first post on the forum and I made sure it would be packed with value so read on.

 

Greetings.

 

If you're a guy involved in pickup or interested in pickup, you should read this post as I will detail some important insights that I've had recently in regards to game and the whole belief system behind it. This is a glimpse into your future.

 

I've been in the game for almost 10 years. In that time, I've gone through multiple stages in my development. 

 

I've been the beginner, the intermediate, the advanced. I've been technical and natural. I've done social circle, day and night game. I've had one night stands, casual as well as serious relationships. I've had conscious connections and... more ego driven ones. I've been honest and manipulative.

 

I've been through a lot. 

 

Eventually, just about a year or two ago, I seem to have reached a new plateau that I only now finally begun to unravel.

 

I started to feel completely disillusioned by the whole pickup thing. Going out night after night, day after day, hosting get togethers, writing field reports and everything that comes with maximizing your results in dating started to feel absolutely meaningless to me.

 

It got to the point where I would go out with natural friends of mine and I would do extremely ballsy and over the top things as a way to finally feel something exciting from my interactions as they became so repetitive and boring to me.

 

It was a weird space. It felt like my game became so much better, as a result of all this. Women would respond very positively to me when I would act from that headspace and my friends would be amazed. I even had some guys who wanted me to coach them up, after witnessing me in field. Yet, I felt so fucking empty inside. 

 

Indifference really is the epitome of high level game, I guess. But the cost was not worth it.

 

What is the point of this? I would ask myself.

 

Sex? Not worth it. Not anymore.

 

Game mastery? There's no such thing. 

 

It felt like a never ending overindulgence.

 

I craved for more meaning, more depth, more intimacy.

 

Then about a year ago, I found it.

 

I was out in the club, coaching one of my "friends" on pickup when we approached these two gorgeous women, one of which I had approached a few months prior at another club but got rejected. This time though, shit was hitting. It was one of those rare nights where I actually felt motivated to game. Her exceptional beauty definitely helped with that.

 

Long story short, we ended up dating for the next 3 months. Not in a serious relationship, but we definitely were heading in that direction. I have to emphasize again that she was absolutely gorgeous. A 10 in my eyes.

 

Yet something was missing.

 

We werent very sexually compatible and there were many personality clashes between us. Coupled that with the fact that i decided to move to a different city to pursue new opportunities and it was high time to throw in the towel with that connection.

 

However, after all that, I ended up spiraling. I dove deep into pickup again. Slept around and felt emptier and emptier with each one. I didn't want to see these girls again. I didn't respect them, nor cared for them. But i needed them. I needed a replacement for the connection I walked away from. Multiple replacements in necessary.

 

I thought I had found the woman I could finally justify leaving the game for. But it was a facade. And here I am, again, dealing with women who I care very little for.

 

And that's when it clicked.

 

I am looking for an escape. I'm looking to abandon the pickup paradigm. It has run its course. That's why I've been feeling this way and I've been resisting it. Looking for an excuse to leave it all behind.

 

While pickup teaches us that sex is natural, normal, a high value activity, etc. I actually began to develop my own belief systems around it. 

 

I started to find casual sex to be quite disgusting, actually. Theres nothing casual about having sex with someone. It is a risky endeavour that is inherently disrespectful to your body when it's being experienced with someone who you care little about.

 

In fact, I came to see that I never really enjoyed casual sex all that much. But pickup conditioning has taught me that I should, so I just ran with it for almost 10 years!

 

Additionally, what I came to realize is that pickup doesnt do much for your life overall. In fact, it limits your potential. 

 

For example, because of all the time I spent doing pickup, I didnt develop certain skills that would've benefited my finances greatly. 

 

Furthermore, because of pickup, I felt ashamed of certain feminine aspects of myself because I felt like embracing them would make me less attractive to the opposite sex and thus negatively affect my results. 

 

"And maybe they would," I thought to myself. "But I would also be happier. . ." Right?

 

This was such a mind-bending click for me. I started to really deconstruct my whole pickup identity within a span of just a week.

 

At the apex, I was out with 2 of my wings. They have a more aggressive style of game while I tend to play the more "chill social guy" approach, where I talk to everyone, guys and girls and build social proof as the night goes on and subtly escalate and express interest only after the girl has given me some indicators of interest.

 

This particular night, I wasn't feeling it at all. I was talking to a group of guys and having a pretty fun conversation with them, but I didn't feel like approaching girl, really. Despite this, my 2 wings were rampant! I would watch them from afar as they were scanning the environment, looking for girls. 

 

My eyes followed them as thet were doing their approaches, getting rejected, analyzing their sets to each other briefly and then jumping right into the next interaction. 

 

As I was witness to this, the only thought that entered my mind was: What fucking losers. 

 

And this is not an attack to them. It's an attack to me.

 

I was them. I was in that headspace for many years too. Running around, approaching girls, pursuing sex, intimacy and love.

 

But, that night, I truly saw it as the low value activity it really is.

 

Needless to say, I ended up going home early.

 

The next few days were eye opening. 

 

This is what I can clearly see, right now:

 

Pickup is a needy paradigm to be in and that goes for high level 'natural' game, as well. How can that be? Isnt high level natural game just being yourself and not giving a fuck? How can you be needy while not giving a fuck? 

 

Yes, to be good with women you do need not give a fuck and be completely free and unfiltered, coupled with social calibration, of course. However, when operating from a pickup paradigm, one only behaves this way because they know it will maximise their results, which makes that behaviour needy at the source. If you found out that being meek would get you laid more, then you would do that. Thus, are you actually being yourself or using that as a technique? 

 

There's a world of difference when one truly doesn't give a fuck from a holistic sense and when one is behaving as such through the pickup lens.

 

The highest quality of life can only be achieved when one falls in love with themselves unconditionally and that cannot happen while operating through an identity that depends on external factors and results to be validated. 

 

As I mentioned before, I have certain feminine traits that I've rejected socially and within myself out of fear of losing out on potential options with women. 

 

This is self hate, not love. 

 

And men do this all the time, especially when involved in pickup and in very subtle ways. 

 

A guy might say, for example, that when his woman does something disrespectful he will reinforce his own boundaries and assert his dominance in the relationship because he is in abundance and isn't afraid to lose her. 

 

Yet, the question is, again, are you really doing that out of abundance and self love or because you know that doing so has the best chance of keeping your woman loyal and attracted to you? 

 

That's for you to answer of course.

 

I want to fully own everything that I am. I care not to be seen as attractive, or preselected, or dominant, or charismatic, or even nice. I want to be me. Even if it means being seen as the opposite of the above by every person on earth.

 

I'm done performing the role of the attractive man. I want out.

 

There are so many more insights and nuances that I want to share, but this post is long enough and I'm also typing this at work, so I'll leave it as is.

 

I know Leo has a whole video on this topic. But it's a completely different experience when you go through it yourself.

 

Not to say I will never chat up a woman again, that's ridiculous. But it will be coming from a different place.

 

Does that mean you should not do pickup? Of course not! That would make me a hypocrite to the highest degree. Of course, go out and do it! 

 

All I ask, is that when you reach a point that it no longer serves you, then recognize it and make the switch.

 

 

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Thank you for sharing your experience.

My perception (from the outside looking in) is that many guys who get involved with pick-up tend to do so because they semi-consciously hold the illusion that attractive women hold the power to judge their existence as worthy or unworthy.

It's sort of like, "A man has to be x, y, and z to be sufficiently Masculine and to be a man among men. And the 'objective' judges of whether he has x, y, and z values and is sufficiently Masculine are attractive women, with the most attractive women having the highest and most objective adjudicating power. So, a man must prove his worth through proving his Masculinity among other men. And the only way to prove his Masculinity among other men is to gain the sexual approval of very attractive women."

(Note: women's attractions aren't objective of course. They're HIGHLY subjective. That's just a necessary part of the illusion so that the attractive women feel like their objective in their judgments.)

So, there seems to be a lot of validation seeking through proving one's Masculinity to attractive women... as a means of getting away from shame.

Of course, the only way to resolve shame is unconditional self-love. So, it doesn't work. And it often takes a decent amount of experience to realize that it doesn't actually do the work of resolving shame... as it's usually a mostly unconscious driver.

Edited by Emerald

Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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10 years in pickup is way too long, haha. That was the issue.

The point of pickup is to learn the skills and get your cravings satisfied and then find a girlfriend and chill out. Not to go clubbing for 10 years in a row.

You just over-did it.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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1 hour ago, Emerald said:

My perception (from the outside looking in) is that many guys who get involved with pick-up tend to do so because they semi-consciously hold the illusion that attractive women hold the power to judge their existence as worthy or unworthy.

There is another reason beyond this - delusional assumption that women will fulfill you with love or will give you meaning in life. Society plays out this idea very well. 

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34 minutes ago, TheGod said:

There is another reason beyond this - delusional assumption that women will fulfill you with love or will give you meaning in life. Society plays out this idea very well. 

This is more related to connection I think - you perceive you can attain happiness through the connection with a partner. 

But in reality - it is the true connection with yourself you require that you cannot feel. 

Once you connect with yourself, love springs from the seeds of experience shared with another. Without the neediness of thinking they can supply what we do not have. What ends up being created between - experience - is the font of love.

Stems from society telling us we are not enough. We need another to be whole. So you end up with broken pathological attached love being represented as the aim. They sell you something by creating a percieved lack. Insidious.


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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Do you think being very grounded in spirituality, actualized.org teachings, etc. can help you navigate it properly?

Also what about the argument that the social skills you learn will translate into life purpose skills? I probably wouldn't be interested if I didn't see multiple ROI's beyond just simply sex

 

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1 hour ago, TheGod said:

There is another reason beyond this - delusional assumption that women will fulfill you with love or will give you meaning in life. Society plays out this idea very well. 

I could see that also being a strong motivator for many.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

This is more related to connection I think - you perceive you can attain happiness through the connection with a partner. 

But in reality - it is the true connection with yourself you require that you cannot feel. 

Once you connect with yourself, love springs from the seeds of experience shared with another. Without the neediness of thinking they can supply what we do not have. What ends up being created between - experience - is the font of love.

Stems from society telling us we are not enough. We need another to be whole. So you end up with broken pathological attached love being represented as the aim. They sell you something by creating a percieved lack. Insidious.

It took me 25 years to realize it. I don't think I would have realized it had I not tried 5MeO-DMT.

Ultimately  this connection seeking is a covered-up need for God & Oneness. The self wants to merge with itself. 

Society on the other hand feeds this idea of incompleteness from childhood. Also songs, movies, books, social media, almost everything is related to it in one way or another.  

Edited by TheGod

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Wow, amazing. Feels like reading my own writing.

Thanks for the reminder.

Yes, I remember very clearly that realization / feeling of casual sex being disgusting. Yes, I remember realizing that I have to repress some of my inherent feminine qualities. Yes, I remember having to put on a "abundance" mindset to attract girls, but deep down needing sex / validation / proof to myself.

I remember very clearly realizing that the best sex I had in the countless sex I had, was with women were there was a connection and build up of some dates - and that pretty much all ONS I had were awful. It got so bad to the point where I couldn't even get an erection anymore. Not because of anxiety but because it just became mechanical performation, on repeat. I remember even visiting the doctor because I thought something was wrong with my penis.

And I remember very clearly the feeling of shallowness, hollowness and emptiness - and that I was craving for something deeper and intimate.

But as Leo said, it took me 1-2 years to realize all this. 10 years was way too long brother.


Connect with me on Instagram: instagram.com/miguetran

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15 minutes ago, TheGod said:

Society on the other hand feeds this idea of incompleteness from childhood. Also songs, movies, books, social media, almost everything is related to it in one way or another.  

This hit - I remember a similar HUGE reframe of things like songs etc.

Relistening it suddenly has a whole different meaning when you realize the falsehood of what is being sold to you...

It also made me very cautious of any meaning making we do. False meanings can really hinder us. And meaning is something we naturally look for as a way to obtain certainty (and certainty is a way to gain safety - goes back to survival mechanisms). To understand the meaning so we can predict outcomes and survive. And don't get me wrong - meaning can be important - but it can be another way we blind ourselves to truth.

19 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

I remember very clearly realizing that the best sex I had in the countless sex I had, was with women were there was a connection and build up of some dates - and that pretty much all ONS I had were awful. It got so bad to the point where I couldn't even get an erection anymore. Not because of anxiety but because it just became mechanical performation, on repeat. I remember even visiting the doctor because I thought something was wrong with my penis.

Damn, this is vulnerable - thanks for sharing. My brother experienced this also during a phase he was smashing ONS. Multiple girls home at a time. He also went to the doctor. But soon worked out it was a total mechanical loss of connection with the act that was causing ED. He has always been good with the social thing (he has close relationships with sisters and an excellent understanding of femininity), but he realized he was sort of shelving his feminine side and suppressing to 'run through' women (as he termed it). He wasn't into pickup, but he was socializing with a lot of men who were in a bit of a ONS phase. I think it rubbed off on him.

Glad you are recovered :x


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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@Zenterus don’t be hard on yourself. A lot of men develop this pathology because it is hard for them to get what they want in a natural way. So they need to learn to jump through those hoops and waste years of their potential. I made a topic about this a while back. 

It is all about mask on, mask off. In the same way you are wearing clothes you are wearing social masks too. This is not fake. This is the nature of the feminine. Women will hate each other and still be friends with each other.  Men can’t do that.  It is important to have these insights in human nature. 

I had similar insights very recently. It is better to internalize validation and go after your life purpose. Life purpose is something that you will benefit from at an older age. Those fleeting relationships won’t stay with you. For me it was about valuing my time and then you will automatically become more strategic when you let go of the eternal child syndrome. 


In stercore invenitur 💩 

 

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@Natasha Tori Maru Thank you for the love 😊

How I "fixed" my ED was actually quite a beautiful story. I was on a 24h cruise ship that turned out wasn't very good party wise, and didn't have many people. So I was stuck there, but I met a stunning blonde. The only issue was that she was in a relationship.

Well, oh well. I decided I might as well get to know her and befriend her as there wasn't really any other pretty girl around. She was into meditation and was starting to dive into surface level spirituality (which wasn't necessarily that surface for me at that time - over 5 years ago), which got me interested in talking with her more and more, connect with her more and more. We connected for hours and I started to really like this person on a deeper, emotional, spiritual and intimate level. Felt a deep connection, at home etc. as it is always nice to meet a spiritual person in the mass of normies. We had a lot of good laughs.

THEN, out of nowhere (whether this was truly true or not, I still don't know to this day), she drops the bomb that she is on a phase with her boyfriend where they are allowed to explore. She wanted specifically to explore whether she was into girls (perhaps exploring guys wasn't part of the deal, lol).

Well, the whole energy shifted immediately, and this huge purge of sexual and romantic tension got released, as we were doing some flirting before the bomb-drop too.

I was even being vulnerable and telling her about my ED issues, but turns out, after the shift in dynamics, I had a huge boner just by getting closer to her physically and looking intimately at her beautiful blue eyes, thinking how I wanted to make love and penetrate this woman deeply in her soul.

Needless to say, it was the best sex I had during my pick up phase.

Probably helped a lot that she was in a 5 year relationship too, as I believe you learn sex skills (and specifically love-making skills), empathy and emotional connection mostly in relationships.

It was such a beautiful and healing experience, especially since I had basically been running away from facing myself, and my pain, by having all these empty soulless sex for like 6 months straight after breaking up from my ex - that there was no going back. I realized then and there that I had just been gaslighting myself about the ED all along, and that what I truly enjoy was an intimate connection and love-making, rather than empty ONSs just to run away from myself, and to feed my ego - as OP had realized throughout his journey as well.

Lots of inner reflection happened after that experience, which lead to transforming and maturing. Shortly after, I bumped into a girl I ended up dating and being best friends with for 5 years. It recently ended (but that's a conversation for another day), and I moved on my own and closed that chapter in my life.

The view from my new apartment, and the next chapter of my life (it's full on ocean and not a lake):

Screenshot 2025-10-18 at 11.52.52.png

Thanks for reading ❤️

Edited by Miguel1

Connect with me on Instagram: instagram.com/miguetran

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@Zenterus It just reaffirms my belief that getting into a relationship doesn't make a person happy. Even though I never had a girlfriend but there were many receptive women whom I encountered as well as unreceptive girls. I think personal development/self-help is better than pickup even though other people's view vary . I have been consuming and applying self-help since 8 years , 10 months ( still counting by the way) which started from Leo's video on negative thoughts. Fast forward to this day I don't try to eliminate negative thoughts but rather reframe the situation. 

I had a few romantic rejections along the way but later realised that I didn't like those girls.You present a counterargument to most guys who chase girls and a lot of them told me that I am not capable of attracting a girl , pay attention to your/career instead of chasing girls. You are not a hypocrite and even you encouraging us to pursue relationships shoes your emotional growth and maturity.

Thanks for this nuanced post.

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@Miguel1 Your story - beautiful :x

I especially love the image - it truly does represent a new beginning. New phase of life exploration. Dive into you.

How you express yourself shows you live life like an artist :)

Slightly jealous of that view, ya bastard


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The point of pickup is to learn the skills and get your cravings satisfied and then find a girlfriend and chill out

What if i just want to do pickup for rest of life, and never get a girlfriend. Like only friends with benefits or casual relationship for rest of life.

Might go down that road. So instead of 10 years, i can do it for 40 years.

Edited by Peo
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10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

and then find a girlfriend and chill out.

Do you have a girlfriend, Leo.

If you don't want to answer it, that's fine.


"Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie

 

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 You'll meet love where you belong in the first place.
Go against where you belong and collect dust.


𝔉𝔞𝔠𝔢𝔱 𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔪 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔡𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔪 𝔬𝔣 𝔤𝔬𝔡
Eternal Art - World Creator
https://x.com/VahnAeris

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@Zenterus Great insights. Thanks for sharing.


“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God’s eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.” ~ Meister Eckhart

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On 2025-10-17 at 7:50 PM, Emerald said:

Thank you for sharing your experience.

My perception (from the outside looking in) is that many guys who get involved with pick-up tend to do so because they semi-consciously hold the illusion that attractive women hold the power to judge their existence as worthy or unworthy.

 

I definitely felt that way.

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