Carl-Richard

Why politics sucks

77 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

We're in a situation here in Norway before our election where both the most Right-leaning parties as well as the Left-leaning parties claim to be in the best interest of the common man, of the low earners, students, etc. And it shows that the thing about politics is you can always tell a story.

For example, the Right says that cutting the wealth tax benefits businesses which creates more jobs which reduces state expenditures which means you can decrease taxes more and it's a snowball effect.

On the other hand, the Left says keeping the wealth tax means you can use that money on for example lowering employment fees which increases hiring and more people get into work which reduces state expenditures which means you can decrease e.g. the employment fees even more and it's a snowball effect.

But whether one story is actually better than the other, has to be tested, and then you can decide based on the data. But the problem is that a state is not a science experiment where you can have a control group that isolates the effect of an intervention. And if you let one administration test out their politics and it fails, they will always blame something else: "ah the world economy, the war in Ukraine, the Covid pandemic".

So how does one get around this? Are there indeed better arguments for keeping the wealth tax than cutting it if you are rooting for the common man? Or is the image too complex? Also, are there arguments for keeping the wealth tax "in principle", before you look at the data?

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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The key thing to realize is that no one cares about what's actually better for society, they just want their worldview validated and they want personal benefits at the cost of everyone else.

Politics is not about making society better, it is about proving yourself right and stealing money from people you don't know nor care about.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to realize is that no one cares about what's actually better for society, they just want their worldview validated and they want personal benefits at the cost of everyone else.

Exactly why the government needs to give the money to people, business owners never will.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Or is the image too complex? 

It's not complicated. 

People are greedy; in their hands, some get rewarded. Governments can force a better quality of life for more people at once at the expense of some.

  • Example arguments against this are that people need to compete, fight, and earn it to progress society, technology and mankind as a whole
  • Example arguments for this are, how many sports cars and luxury homes does that millionaire or billionaire need before its absurd?

The answer, as always, is a balance.

Edited by BlueOak

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Posted (edited)

I voted for what i think will lead Norway to become a stage yellow SD society. MDG (party) is mostly green, but is the closes one to transition into stage yellow. 

I like to use SD as map to see what i should vote on. I want to see a stage yellow government, but maybe in my lifetime. 

Edited by Peo
Grammar mistakes

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41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to realize is that no one cares about what's actually better for society, they just want their worldview validated and they want personal benefits at the cost of everyone else.

Politics is not about making society better, it is about proving yourself right and stealing money from people you don't know nor care about.

Why has humanity moved up the spiral then over history? Surely there’s more to it

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I’m not a believer in centrally issued currency and taxation.

Money is all about change, who gets to change what. It’s a mindset dynamic that rewards those who exploit it the most.

Once central currency is eliminated, people can develop a new epistemology to build different structures.

I think people need to realize that being a citizen of any nation-state puts them at a disadvantage. This is the reality of our age: we are all living in a country called "Any State."

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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to realize is that no one cares about what's actually better for society, they just want their worldview validated and they want personal benefits at the cost of everyone else.

Politics is not about making society better, it is about proving yourself right and stealing money from people you don't know nor care about.

That's Western politics. How about Asia politics like China , Japan where thinking about others /society is deeply programmed into them from childhood. Sacrifice for society is standard in China and also not so bad personally because they believe to be reborn as a Chinese again.

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1 hour ago, Peo said:

I voted for what i think will lead Norway to become a stage yellow SD society. MDG (party) is mostly green, but is the closes one to transition into stage yellow. 

I like to use SD as map to see what i should vote on. I want to see a stage yellow government, but maybe in my lifetime. 

MDG all the way here as well! The combination of support for climate, Ukraine, Palestine and EU membership is as good as it gets.

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Posted (edited)

Wealth tax may have worked in the past when people were less mobile and had a shared sense of duty to each other - but in a globalized multi-cultural world most likely people just go to another jurisdiction.

Being wealthy means you have the means to get up and leave. That second home in Dubai, Singapore or Cayman Islands? Cool, just make it the main home base.

The reason politics sucks is because it’s complex - and complexity requires intelligence, nuance and hard work to work through. That’s not for most people, yet Democracies politicise their entire society. Now your neighbours vote is a threat to your survival if it means they vote for something your values don’t align with. In a multi-cultural society that is only compounded.

Liberalism equates dignity of individuals with their ability to discern. Democracy assumes the masses have the discernment required to vote for competence rather than popularity - democracy is essentially a popularity contest: the one with the most votes wins.

Yet when the candidate isn’t an establishment one their labelled a populist with a negative connotation, when it’s an establishment candidate it’s just good old democracy and will of the people at work.

Ancient wisdom knew that discernment isn’t scalable to the masses, hence we had councils of elders type governance - that in its best iteration stewards the people, in its worst rules over them with a fist. I call it Democracy vs Discern-ocracy.

Edited by zazen

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, zazen said:

Wealth tax may have worked in the past when people were less mobile and had a shared sense of duty to each other - but in a globalized multi-cultural world most likely people just go to another jurisdiction.

If it's on earnings, it doesn't matter where they live; it's where the money is being received. Ideally, it would be where it was produced also, so there was no imbalance, but that would require a socialist consideration in a person's mind.
 

43 minutes ago, zazen said:

Ancient wisdom knew that discernment isn’t scalable to the masses, hence we had councils of elders type governance - that in its best iteration stewards the people, in its worst rules over them with a fist. I call it Democracy vs Discern-ocracy.


I agree, but what kept them in check?
 

2 hours ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Once central currency is eliminated, people can develop a new epistemology to build different structures.

The ideal scenario, but the same question. What keeps whatever new system develops in check?


The answer to both these questions will be People.

Which is why you raise the base of anything up. Which requires an undemonizing of socialism, and applying its principles in a balanced, sensible way to those in the worst conditions or states of mind/body.

 

Edited by BlueOak

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 And it shows that the thing about politics is you can always tell a story.

For example, the Right says that cutting the wealth tax benefits businesses which creates more jobs which reduces state expenditures which means you can decrease taxes more and it's a snowball effect.

On the other hand, the Left says keeping the wealth tax means you can use that money on for example lowering employment fees which increases hiring and more people get into work which reduces state expenditures which means you can decrease e.g. the employment fees even more and it's a snowball effect.

 

You have just highlighted democracy's biggest flaw: the common uneducated citizen is forced to make the country's most important decisions. 

None of us are equipped enough to answer the questions you ask because none of us have the education or experience in the relevant fields. Not to mention the sheer amount of intentional misinformation that's ment to confuse and distract citizens. 

Edited by enchanted

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Politics is not about making society better, it is about proving yourself right and stealing money from people you don't know nor care about.

Isn’t this the same view that is leading to the erosion of democratic institutions in the US and globally? Most ignorant populist would share the same view (not calling you a populist Leo, you know how dumb they can be). But it sounds the same.

Politics can be a dirty business, but how else do we change the world for the better than through the democratic process of electing officials? We should not demonize politics so much that it demotivates people-leaving the door wide open for autocrats and tyrants.

It may already be too late to turn things around, our society lacks the education on how to use politics for the common good, probably bc they never cared to.

Edited by Terell Kirby

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Posted (edited)

It could be boiled down to one or two questions, Is the government wasting more money than it is creating more prosperity? And, is there something that needs done by the government, homelessness, infrastructure, education,...

Typically, the largest driver of jobs is from tax revenue, despite the common thought that taxes kill jobs, it's almost the opposite. Taxes can be used to create long-term national wealth, through infrastructure, research, education, helping the needy: But, it can also be wasted, or stolen. Think of the internet being created by the u.s. government, the power grid, the highway systems, education,.... no tax-cut to business is going to create the prosperity that these systems foster.

Edited by Elliott

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Peo said:

I voted for what i think will lead Norway to become a stage yellow SD society. MDG (party) is mostly green, but is the closes one to transition into stage yellow. 

I like to use SD as map to see what i should vote on. I want to see a stage yellow government, but maybe in my lifetime. 

I've also thought the same thing, about voting MDG. 

I honestly think that somebody like Bryan Johnson being the head of state could be the best thing. When teenagers in juvenile detention centers were given dietary supplements targeting measured deficiencies, violent offences dropped by 91% compared to controls. That could address the problem with youth crime in our country. When older people were given a multivitamin in a 2-3 year treatment program, they slowed their global cognitive aging by 2 years compared to controls.

When people are individually healthy and virtually don't get chronic diseases and are less injury prone, you put pressure off the healthcare system, less people are on disability, less elderly in elderly homes, more people are working (and less sick days) and they're more productive. Individual health is something we have a strong scientific basis for being good, it affects virtually everything that the state touches, and an intervention like free multivitamins for everyone would probably not cost much either.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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Politic is a low-consciousness game in general.


Nothing will prevent Willy.

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Posted (edited)

@Joel3102You need the people to see that brutes are coming after them and they need to rally around a mystical person. That society creates a new one and levels up cause they see what was happening to them is wrong. Imagine stories about moses and other people like that are level up moments.

Edited by Hojo

Sometimes it's the journey itself that teaches/ A lot about the destination not aware of/No matter how far/
How you go/How long it may last/Venture life, burn your dread

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6 hours ago, OBEler said:

That's Western politics. How about Asia politics like China , Japan where thinking about others /society is deeply programmed into them from childhood. Sacrifice for society is standard in China and also not so bad personally because they believe to be reborn as a Chinese again.

?

The most conscious politic is certainly that of the West.

The Japanese aren't communitarian, let alone politically cultured; most of the time, they're just completely subservient to conservative norms.
The same goes for China; no democracy, "special economic zones" with super-savage capitalism...

 


Nothing will prevent Willy.

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9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to realize is that no one cares about what's actually better for society, they just want their worldview validated and they want personal benefits at the cost of everyone else.

Politics is not about making society better, it is about proving yourself right and stealing money from people you don't know nor care about.

I guess in the case of cutting or keeping the wealth tax while rooting for the common man, if you can identify incentives that don't directly favor the common man (e.g. cutting the tax directly favors rich people), then that could argue against it. But then someone will say that keeping the tax is because the state wants to be powerful and rich.


Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

Why has humanity moved up the spiral then over history? Surely there’s more to it

Because technology makes survival easier. The easier survival gets the more kind mankind can afford to be to each other.

9 hours ago, OBEler said:

That's Western politics. How about Asia politics like China , Japan

No, we are talking about all society ever. There are no exceptions to the ignorance, selfishness, and corruption of humans.

China is insanely corrupt, just in their own collectivist ways.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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