Should i Manipulate Others or Not?

[SQAAD]

I am currenty living in a rough living situation where every decision matters, at the end of the day whether i am gonna meet my needs, or feel like tying a rope around my neck. Hardcore stuff. But the Gods are on my side, gently pushing me towards Higher and better things. (Like being more selfless, more intelligent, more courageous  etc).

I do not like lying or being someone so incredibly disgusting and despicable like Andrew Tate. 

But i find that i am dealing with low-consciousness all around me, and playing the Game of Life "fair" doesn't always give me the strategic advantages that i so desperately seek..

I think there is Good vs Bad manipulation. Bad manipulation is when you hurt others by being dishonest.

Good manipulation is when you don't really hurt the other person, but you nudge him towards a direction that suits you.

Example: Let's say i pull out my good phone (when i don't feel like doing it) just so i can create a good impression of being the sort of person who has his sh!t together..

But i don't like doing it when i don't feel like doing it..

Sometimes the manipulation comes from a Genuine Place of Wisdom but others time , it comes from Survival Based Fear..

I don't know what to do anymore.

Isn't pickup all about Manipulation Tactics? Isn't Everyone manipulation in some form or another to survive, have sex and thrive??

I feel like i am leaving a lot on the table for idiots like Andrew Tate to take..

 

Edited Thursday at 08:10 AM by SQAAD

[SwiftQuill]

When you ask about manipulation do you mean in general or specifically for pickup?

[gettoefl]

I don't need others but I want others. If I needed them I'd manipulate. But since I want they need to come because they want.

[SwiftQuill]

Survival requires some amount of manipulation. If you are at a job interview, and you are too honest, you will lose the job.

Exaggerations, euphemisms, distortions, promises, these are necessary to survive in society.

But you can't take it too far. You can't tell a recruiter you have a degree in medicine and 10 years of experience when you have neither. You will be found out and punished for it.

The same principle for dating, socializing, marketing yourself. Manipulation is necessary (to some extent).

Usually, the worse off you are in life, the more you will require manipulation to survive. But once you reach a sweet stop, you stop needing it so much.

Most interactions with humans are job interviews. Don't feel bad for manipulating.

[Flowerfaeiry]

If you genuinely feel ok in your heart about certain manipulations then go for it. Pulling out your good phone seems harmless. Lying maybe not so much. 

[Hojo]

You cant not manipulate people. Pick up is manipulation its pathetic you basically are like I cant get women so I need to use these tactics to manipulate their mind because I am not good enough to pick them up myself.

[UnbornTao]

Manipulation deserves its own thread.

[Lyubov]

I don’t think manipulation is necessary for everything. Why not call it influence? Why not go about it with the intention that you will seek out what you believe is right for you and in exchange give something in return to the other person. We are sharing a lot of resources and our lives are intertwined with society. Of course we may need to rely on other people sometimes and influence their decisions. You can do that honestly, no problem. 

[Aaron p]

I think with this topic it might be good to create a distinction between manipulation and suggestion. What you're pointing at is 100% legit... Like wearing a suit to a job interview, or a female wearing makeup to make herself look better to literally create an enhanced mask to create the false impression of exaggerated beauty, ultimately anything developed for aesthetic purposes is deceptive and "manipulative." But once again it would probably be more accurate and helpful to say that it's suggestion rather than manipulation. 

Your predicting what people want to control the outcome. The word manipulation carries slightly heavier connotations than the word suggestion...

In pick up manipulation would probably be something like creating social pressure or controlling things to move in a certain direction... Where suggestion is more like predicting what the girl will like and playing into it because you like. Suggestion incorporates the free volition of other people. This suggestion it's like a softer version of manipulation. 

It's also kind of similar to tax avoidance Vs tax evasion.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Manipulation deserves its own thread.

This.

I manipulate others all the time.

I am very subtle about it. Most of the time I am attempting to engage someone emotionally on a few levels to attempt to persuade them to do what I need, willingly. So they enjoy the process and I instil in them a sense of intrinsic motivation to a shared goal. I do this in my construction work to push others to adhere to programs, ensure quality control etc.

In my personal life I attempt to steer people to a direction I believe will facilitate growth.

Even on the forums, you will get a sense I draw you in with the pace and type of language I use.

I don't deny this at all >.>

My own internal moral system means I review my behaviour & actions against a checks and balances system.

Its important to remember in this process - ultimately you have zero control.

If you manipulate with any negative goal or without an overall 'good' aim? I can assure you, you will not enjoy your inner world at all. You have thoughts that act like running programs that will eat you alive in the background. Like a corrupt system chip driver polluting the entire operating system and all its running programs. 

Its just sad that there are those of us who are so self serving, they delude themselves into the belief all their manipulations are 'good'... in their limited perspective. Often with these individuals, as they grow older and become more aware, they realise the error of their ways. It always comes back to eat you alive...

[Natasha Tori Maru]

In the end everything is a manipulation, isn't it? You could take it to any level.

It comes down to where you place judgements on behaviour. Your individual emotional reactions to your behaviour give rise to your moral system.

[Ramanujan]

grab a copy of 48 laws of power and 33 strategies of war and laws of human nature. then be a defensive machiavelli. using manipulation for self defense is very good , even a noble thing to do

[theleelajoker]

For me, as of today, it's like that:

• Manipulation -> making an effort to control situations and other people's behaviour to achieve a certain outcome while hiding/ masking my true intentions--> might work in the short run to a degree
• Difference influence vs. manipulation:
  • I influnce people by me must being me. No intention of changing them, just expressing myself
  • If I think sth will be good for sme else, I am as open as I can be about it, not masking my intentions. Trust is important: Does the other believe that I truly have his best intentions in mind? I might be wrong with my recommendation, but my intention is pure.
• Medium to long term you will get a backlash from manipulation
  • People don't like being manipulated, causing reactance. They feel if you go against their own motives
  • You also loose. You can't control reality and as long as you try to, you will never be free
  • You can't create feelings or actions in other people, no matter what. Only thing you can do is bring attention to what already is.

Example:

• I walk down the street with my friend. There is trash on the street and I pick it up
• Manipulation: I pick it up because I want him to be more eco-conscious etc., that's my primary intention. And indeed, maybe he picks up trash one time, maybe even so that I see it. But as soon as he is unobserved he stop giving a fuck and leaves the trash where it is
• Influence: I am silently picking it up simply because I feel like doing it. He is observing that, feels my true intention and does not feel pressured to do the same. But if there is a inner desire to also pick up trash in the future my actions bring attention to his desire
• Grey Area where I don't really know how to see it:  I pick it up and say: "I pick it up because I feel like it, because I feel it's the right thing to do for me.  But at the same time I hope that my example will cause others to do the same."

Edited 23 hours ago by theleelajoker

[AION]

Andrew Tate doesn’t advise men to manipulate. He advices you to get your life in order and women will automatically come into your life through attraction. 
To get what you want attraction is much more useful than manipulation. The lines between attraction and manipulation are very thin. Good manipulation doesn’t look like manipulation. It looks like attraction. If you have charisma which is attraction, you don’t even try to get her and that will make her want her to get you. 

Edited 22 hours ago by AION

[UnbornTao]

@Natasha Tori Maru

What if manipulation is more fundamental? 

Originally, it meant to handle skillfully.

So, as you implied, the work of a teacher (steering people in the direction of learning and growth), for example, could be considered a form of manipulation. Yet with that definition, it doesn’t carry a negative connotation--it might even be beneficial to the student. It could be framed as generating an effect on another or on something, such as inspiring someone or moving a chair in order to sit on it.

The kind of manipulation that’s typically seen as bad is the social, sneaky kind--deceptive and selfish in nature.

Sorry, just a half-baked consideration.

Edited 55 minutes ago by UnbornTao

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@UnbornTao

We are in agreement. 

I feel like manipulation - and indeed I use the term with no negative connotations - is one of the lessons we are to learn.

'Handle skillfully' is a beautiful and much more positive reframe.

Machiavellian behavior that is purely self-serving would be the negative form. Those who would manipulate for their own gain, at the detriment of the system at large and other people. I notice there is a value judgement of my own baked into this.

You are a great conversationalist to bounce ideas off - you come across as very objective. It makes hashing out concepts a pleasure!

[SQAAD]

 

@SwiftQuill

On 5/15/2025 at 11:29 AM, SwiftQuill said:

When you ask about manipulation do you mean in general or specifically for pickup?

Both.