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Some buddhist monks calmly burn themselves alive to protest bad government policies. In other words, they calmly commit suicide in public spaces. 99.999% of people would dance crazily if they are being burned alive. Is that what enlightened people are capable of? Awesome. I think they would make excellent warriors. They are warrior sages because they are sages and they are fit to be warriors. I want to become a warrior sage for my life purpose, too.

Why did she commit suicide?

Hahaha damn, collective cult suicide is coming

Is as stupid as a waste of time and suicide is not a virtue, is not true courage. What I see on these monks is just cultural harakiri mentality, nothing much, another form of belief that is virtuous in their society. So don't confuse an enlightened master with an ascetic that does not feel anymore and castrated himself.

So it’s the planning ahead aspect... Contemplate what planning actually is then. It’s not necessarily living as though there is a future. It could also be processing a possibility, one possibility out of infinity. Afterall, life/form is impermanent. Thinking about the future is really just the conceptualization of form that hasn’t actually manifested outside of the mind. “Planning” is like witnessing just another form of reality within the domain of mind and need not have anything to do with seperating from now. In fact, the concept of future is literally only available right now. The future does not exist because all is happening now but form is impermanent and may take an infinite number of forms. “Planning” too is one such form reality can take but it happens now. So basically, I disagree that planning necessarily means you are living in the illusion of a future. You have to first understand the existential nature of “planning” and then the illusion will begin to crack. Planning is witnessing potential form manifest inside of the mind RIGHT NOW. It is egoic, but all acts of survival and really any action at all is egoic. But watching the ego unfold and survive does not necessarily mean one is caught in the illusion of a seperate self just as planning does not necessarily mean one is caught in the illusion of time. This magy be difficult to understand but maybe try. Life purpose and enlightenment dont contradict anymore than actively surviving as a body/not committing suicide and enlightenment. Nor does planning. Enligtenment is understanding the absolute nature of what a “plan” is or what the “future” is or what “survival” is. Just because these concepts play out, it does not mean one is caught in their illusory nature. Not really how else to describe it. Just watch the act of planning, the act of life purpose, the act of survival from a metta perspective. Any form could potentiate into direct experience and none of it need to seperate one from the truth.

Alright. Imagine that voice/force directing someone towards a life purpose and enlightenment both. It's not an egoic thing, it's an effortlessly flowing through life without resistance thing, just as it takes zero effort to not commit suicide.

Wait until you watch one of your parents get sick and slowly die and then come tell me reality is Heaven. No, actually reality is a mixture of Heaven and Hell and everything in between. That’s where we got those concepts from to begin with — from reality. We know certain times in reality can be Hell. Talk to a war veteran and ask them if reality is Heaven. Talk to somebody whose 24 year old son just committed suicide whether reality is Heaven.

It hasn’t come to me to commit suicide. I follow the Voice within myself without resistance.

@How to be wise a pretty direct question here, but oh well - what’s stopping you from committing suicide? I hope this isn’t taken to be offensive or anything; it’s a very genuine question.

For a while now I thought for a fact that suicide was as logical as it gets. Ends all self-suffering and you won't have to deal with problems. But suicide isn't as logical as it seems since it also negates your possibility for happiness. I personally think that you should continue living as long as a possibility for happiness exists. While you're depressed your problems seem big. But maybe in a couple months you'll completely forget about what was causing the depression in the first place. Let's say that a suicidal thought comes up. You think "I want to kill myself". Now replace that with "I want to fix myself" or "I want to fix (or cope) with my problems".

The idea that suicide is logical has a massive flaw. it relies on the assumption that after death is nothing. The truth is, we have no idea what happens to our consciousness after death. we may have to relive the last day of our suffering over and over like groundhog day. we may be put in a situation that is even worse. we just don't know. There is also the idea that we CAN suicide. This is an issue because people have been shot in the head and survived. people have fallen from great heights and survived. people have survived all manner of things and the suffering that comes afterwards can be many times worse than the suffering of a person who feels suicidal. This is how I overcame my suicidal ideations; by realising that it is not under my control.

Interesting idea about the suicide containers. If I had an advanced terminal condition of some kind with only a few months to live and a likelyhood of a lot of physical pain. Considering also my family and sparing them the trauma of dealing with my slow painful death. In some instances, to me the idea has merit. If it's at the point where I really feel a fast decline occurring. We should have a right to sovereignty over our bodies. Maybe have my rotting corpse mix with some kind of compound where by just throwing in some tomato seeds in a few months,,, little Eucharist gardens develop,,,, Commune with cousin Joe after death,,,, Someone mentioned not editing their posts. That's a good one. Tough. That was a part of the deal in my last two Gurdjieff group online endeavors. Good luck Leonid! Thanks for sharing and trusting us.

Sure beats putting a bullet in your head. At least there's some good that comes out of it. At the end of the day we will all die some way. It's not like this guy was burning himself alive at 21 years old. Dying on purpose gives death a kind of meaning that's gotta make chosing to die more palatable. Contrast this with laying in a nursing home just waiting for the universe to slowly eat away at you and kill you. You can die on your own terms, which changes the entire dynamic of dying. We live in a culture where all of that is taboo and you're basically just supposed to get sicker and sicker, weaker and weaker, until your life can't be medically prolonged any longer. Burning yourself alive is basically suicide with a purpose. This is a lot different than putting a bullet in your head in some hotel room where somebody has to find your dead body in there the next day. In both cases you have committed suicide, but they differ in the dignity that is attached to it. And when you burn yourself alive it's not like somebody has to discover your dead corpse, it's all done out in the open. These are all very uncomfortable issues that are very taboo to talk about usually. But as you face death in your own family, you'll start to think more about your own death. You'll think more long-term. How do you want your own death to go? You ever think about that! Keep in mind too that death is a process that usually begins like a year before you actually die. What are you gonna do during that year? I know this is all uncomfortable, but this is life. You're gonna face it. And when you face it, it's something that you wanna be prepared for. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation

Yeah you're right, but these suicides were often done in protest of policies at the time, government stuff etc and these monks just truly believed that their suicide would cause the most change and end the most suffering. So despite being in a blissful state, they threw it all away for others. It's kind of a beautiful tragedy, the person enjoying their life the most sacraficing it for people who arent enjoying it. Lmfao

Why would they commit suicide? Enlightenment doesn't equal suicide.

Thank you, @Nahm! Awesome post by the way! Just to make it clear, you mean that, instead of taking many things to improve (like the 5 I mentioned), I should just pick one? I'm thinking about it and maybe it's a good idea to challenge myself for 21 days to create a unique habit and then start another. Baby-steps. The post was really awesome! Thank you, @Dan Arnautu! My tears are not of excitement and joy, but I love releasing them. It's being a bit difficult to focus on presence while on neuroleptics, but I'm handling it. Thank you for your inspiring post, @rabbitat! I really appreaciate it :). Thank you, @Hellspeed! That's the whole point of my thread, that if I really need a desperation point to start evolving. I think my desperation point started when I was hospitalized and forced medications. Then after the hospitalization, I gained some weight, had back injuries and lost my best friend (suicide). Maybe those situations weren't challenging enough...

Do you mean you have watched some monks commit suicide?

is that picture real? Suicide by fire? I don't think enlightenment can help you remain calm while being burned alive. You're going to feel the burn.

@BjarkeT I think you're missing the point. The reason I made the manifesto is so we should avoid disaster. Scarcity means a scarcity of resources spiritual and physical so if you really embraced pain why don't you right now give everything you own to charity and start from scratch. It'll be a painful journey to do something like that and outside of your comfort zone. There's a difference between going outside of your comfort zone and embracing pain which I do agree with you it helps. What I'm talking about here is true suffering that leads nations on the brink of war and people on the brink of suicide. I think if we avoided this we'd be living in a better world. I don't know what your history is yet I saw when someone asked if working 24/7 is manageable and you said that you doubt it and your body needs sleep. In a world of scarcity let's say if we got rid of all labor laws and a person had to work 24/7 and sleep was considered a luxury we'd all be suffering for it for no reason. This scenario would usually happen in a scarcity world as opposed to an abundance world. If pain is your thing in an abundance world you'd have the chance to buy a ticket to go climb mount Everest that would most likely push you out of your comfort zone and grow you. In a scarcity world just to survive if you needed to be a wage slave it wouldn't exactly be painful it would just be boring and mind numbing yet if you didn't do this job you'd run out of money and your survival needs. Do you understand it's not about pain and pleasure it's about creating a sustainable system that sustains physical and spiritual growth. It's about not being a mindless cog in a heartless machine.

Would you voluntarily subject yourself to military service for 6-12 months if you were never asked to join the army? I wouldn't. The vast majority of people wouldn't either unless they were rendering military service for other benefits like money and career. I could say the same thing about farming, mining, forced labor, etc, etc, ... I propose that as we become freer from forced labor, the societies will become more conducive to enlightenment and personal development. Your friend's experience could have easily become just another distraction if I were him. It would be just another unneccesary pain to me. Pain could easily become a distraction or just another noise in my mind because my ego would react like a crazy monkey. Some people end up shooting others or commiting suicide in army. Each individual needs a unique path to growth. A better path for me would be to do "do nothing" meditation for one hour a day. Even if you were lucky to grow spiritually in army, army would do almost nothing for rising through stages of Spiral Dynamics.

Cynthia Bourgeault gives great instructions on the practice of Centering Prayer In the spiritual circles I've traveled through. No one seems to appreciate Ocke deBoer the way I do. In this interview Iain Mcnay doesn't seem to get Ocke at all. I'll admit that in this interview, Ocke is not very articulate but I think it's because English is not his primary language. His two books HIGHER BEING BODIES and TWO SOULS are treasures to me. Two quotes from HIGHER BEING BODIES "If you could float above the earth and become aware of all the negativity that is going on, you would never laugh again. The world is ruled by negative emotions." "This is the difference between us and the angels. Angels are perfectly made and, therefore, naive and stupid; they can only do what they are made for. Humans have many more possibilities. There is more joy in heaven for one perfected human being than for a thousand angels." From Paul Beekmans review of HIGHER BEING BODIES There is much more in his work to recommend in a brief review. For me I found refreshing the fact that Ocke makes work on oneself appear a potential source of pleasure. As he proclaims; "Absence of joy is slow suicide." Nothing could stir one's appetite to work on the self more than this statement. Understanding his own joy so transparent in his work, is the most persuasive reason to read his book. The book contains many other "homey" statements of this sort that speak well to the reader who is not deep into Gurdjieff's language. For example, Ocke suggests how to put meat on the skeleton of consciousness. He would free his reader from the prison of identification. He contrasts the head brain's radiation with the heart brain's emanation. He tells us the difference between inner and outer memory. the solar soul that can be developed over the lunar body that is destined to dust. This is finally. a book written by one who knows and cares for those who care but do not know yet how to work on themselves.

The only way to cure suicidal thoughts is for one to do it themselves overtime. It won't take an hour, a week, or even months to fully get rid of your suicidal thoughts. It requires constant work and understanding of what suicide is. I haven't fully cured mine but it definitely is improving a lot. There was a time when I got low to the point of where I was about try to kill myself with a butter knife due to family problems and nihilism. The main thing that helps is knowing that there is always a possibility for happiness. And it's nice to have people to hang out with.

I had suicidal ideations a couple of times. I understand it like a mind trick, because suicide is out of question for me (if I have suicidal ideations, it's because something isn't working well). The first time I had suicidal ideations, I took antidepressants. No shame on that because I was probably physiologically screwed up. It's not just a matter of changing semantics. It's deeper than that.

So I went to a psychiatrist. She prescribed me Xanax, fuck Xanax, I'll shoot it in my mouth like candies. Couldn't get the antidepressant prescription because she was avoiding any discussion. I've also hidden my symptoms of bipolar from her because in this case I would get valproic acid or lithium which come with some nasty side effects and toxicity and I see no use in it unless severely manic. Also antidepressants may trigger mania or hypomania (which I had) that's another thing. I worked one day as a carwasher. Jesus Christ I really feel sorry for those stage red/blue women that work there 12 hours a day with very little weekends. The work is okay, it could give me some grounding physical exercises that are not too exhausting and very flexible working schedule, but the unbearable part is that they expect you to wash very fast and clean which is so difficult that it makes you sweaty and angry. After my exam car that I had to wash fast in the end of the day I was so depressed that I was thinking of suicide again, I barely suppressed my cries in front of my collegues. When I went home I was crying all the way and just surrendering to depression talking to myself like "oh yeah bitch, that's devil coming out of me, yikes". I thought "OK, depressed, not a big deal, will see in the morning if I can handle this job further", and then I realized that I don't even have time to sleep enough even though I tried to cook and shower as fast as I can. When I woke up in the morning it was definitely no. Well, at least I worked there for the experience, bwehehe, it was actually fun to use those waterguns, when you press the trigger you feel like you've got all the power in the world, you freaking clearing fairy goddamit. I had fights with my parents about psychiatry and work and shit. They agreed to help me financially with anti-inflammatory diet and acknowledged my health problems. The diet is the one of my main goals at the moment. Still looking for work though. My accountability partnership works. It's been almost a month since I stopped masturbating irresponsibly, it also helped me with some other important commintments like job search. I tried melatonin for sleep and it works. But I have some side effects: headache, nausea, it also seems to affects my kundalini. The carwashing thing shook my schedule and mental state, I will keep experimenting with it. First time I took it I woke up very early in the morning with no alarm and was like "HOLY FUKK?!?! MIRACLE!". Waking up in time definitely lessens my social anxiety and brain fog. Do-nothing is helpful for anxiety for me. Anxiety always comes with constant decision making loop, you are constantly in that state "I gotta fix this, I gotta fix that, what do I do what do I do what do I do", while do-nothing is the opposite of that. You just sit and whatever, fuck it, blah-blah-blah. As you develop do-nothing you can access that any time of the day when you catch yourself in that meaningless decision-making spiral. The length of the day started to increase in northern hemisphere, I will finally have spring fever after all.

This whole notion that the field of psychology is some innocent honest ethical system is just downright wrong. I’m sorry. Maybe it’s because you’re only reading one half of the story, maybe it’s because you haven’t suffered from crippling issues that failed to be addressed or solved AT ALL by psychiatry and psychology whether it be from ADHD to almost committing suicide to knowing people personally or whatever, but this notion that the psychotherapeutic and psychiatric system has their shit handled is just not true. These systems often don’t help people because their understanding is limited and also because this system is extremely corrupt, particularly the FDA. Hell look at how they treat psychedelics. Did you read why Reich was looked up and had his books burned? Because he started publishing “orgone energy” (or prana) and because his practices were rather “unorthodox”. “Unorthodox” doesn’t mean anything if it actually helps people but if you have certain knowledge which your government system doesn’t want spread (like the case in the USA with psychedelics) then don’t be surprised if they bust down your doors and shut you down. If you think what I’m saying is that NO ONE gets help from psychotherapy in some way shape or form than you’re mistaking what I’m saying but this notion that the FDA is some trustworthy and honest noteworthy federal agency is just fucking false. The entire system of psychiatry alone is incredibly corrupt and it’s honesty shameful and disgusting. Maybe you haven’t had doctors keep pressing you on pills because you were fortunate not to be in that situation to understand. Yeah you can read “documented cases” till the cows come home but that doesn’t justify how ineffective and dysfunctional and how lacking psychotherapy and psychiatry is in things like stage yellow systems thinking which is extremely needed because millions of people get fucked over and sometimes even killed because of shallow low grade solutions, cover up of symptoms rather than attacking root causes, a corrupt and ineffective system, pushing pills that more often than not aren’t needed that can totally change a fuck up one’s biochemistry that become extremely addictive with horrendous side effects that rarely work long term (years/decades).