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The excuse that UFOs are something other than alien technology is just a coping mechanism. The only thing we are talking about when we talk about UFOs is alien technology. But Leo! It's "unidentified"! Lolz. Keep telling yourself that.

I just finished watching this, was a good interview. It's clear that David Fravor believes it's aliens, he mentions in the interview that if you wanted to be taken seriously you have to avoid talking about "little green men", but after being questioned about what he thinks the tic tacs are he basically alludes to them being aliens without explicitly stating so. After explaining what the UFO's he saw couldn't be, Lex, reading between the lines, says at 2:15:26 "So you're saying if you had to bet all your money, it would be alien technology". This is what should be on everyone's mind at this point after listening to Fravor, you would already know he thinks it's aliens at this point. Fravor replies "I don't like to get into little green men, but it's not something that we created"

Nice "debate" between a alien skeptic and a alien nut:

I think your attitude is a perfectly sensible response to the alien culture into which we were born. For the vast majority of our ancestors prior to the modern period, people were born into communities which they'd remain in until the day they died. Think about that for a moment. Imagine you knew practically every detail about the 150ish people you knew, imagine you shared a common set of values with them, imagine if the prospect of getting to know anyone from outside of that group never even crossed your mind. If every person you ever knew was part of your own extended family. Those were the circumstances by which our brains evolved. Nowadays we have to conjure up trust manually and dance around trying to build rapport all while knowing the other person is doing exactly the same thing. The sickening fakeness, the theatrical gestures and expressions learned from dramatic media... We have superficial relationships with friends which don't come close to significance of the relationships our ancestors had... hell in many cases we don't even know our friends' parents. We live in a degenerated, disconnected culture. A culture like this shames anybody who doesn't succumb to it, and that's why you feel a pull toward becoming more open and accepting of others.

I would never argue that eyewitness testimony is worthless, but it does have serious limitations as a methodology for validating empirical claims that lie far outside of most people's lived experience. Is eyewitness testimony useful for more mundane things such as a recalled conversation, or the make and model of a car that pulled away from a building? Sure. But for bizarre things that completely outside of normal everyday experience, do I trust most people to be able to correctly interpret whatever the hell it is that they think they're seeing? Not so much. Now I am willing to give more of a benefit of the doubt to people like David Fravor who at least have several years of expertise that's directly relevant to their claim, and is part of the reason I'm not completely dismissive of the alien hypothesis. If nothing else, it at least demonstrates that there's something worth looking in to. Of course Scientific investigation has limitations as well, but it's a much better methodology for making sense of these types of claims than just taking people at their word. If the conclusions that were being made from eyewitness testimony were much more modest in their ontological claims, most reasonable people wouldn't have a problem with it, ie: "There have been sightings of many strange areal phenomena over the last 50 years that could be interpreted as aliens." Even if eyewitness testimony could tell us beyond a shadow of a doubt that we were dealing with is alien technology, we would still want to know what these objects actually are, what they're doing here, how, etc. Which would warrant further investigation using other methodologies.

Even if it does turn out to be the case that aliens spacecraft are visiting us, we're still a long way from having conclusive evidence available to the public which demonstrates that in an unambiguous way. Claiming off handedly that the 'US military has known about UFOs for years' isn't very conclusive without an official statement backed up by some hard evidence, or a whistleblower akin to an Edward Snowden who achieves something to that same effect. Low quality video footage that's highly ambiguous and interpretable as to its phenomenological cause is not hard evidence. Someone like David Fravor relating an experience that's corroborated by the accounts of a handful of other highly trained professionals saw is a lot better, and is enough to give the hypothesis some legs, but it still doesn't tell us what the phenomenological cause is of whatever these things are. And even if you believe that beyond a shadow of doubt that alien craft are visiting us, categorizing them as alien in origin still doesn't explain what these things are, what they're doing here, etc. About as useful saying something is human in origin; helpful in some ways, but there's still so much that it doesn't tell you. Are these types of phenomena worth studying further? Absolutely; the fact that there's a non negligible chance that some of these may be aliens warrants that. But it's just too early to say anything definitive about them for the time being.

Maybe I'm totally wrong and the "opposite pole" you describe are actually triggered by "UFO evidence" and this evidence shatters their worldview but IMO, the fact Leo and so many others are so eager to believe in aliens after seeing UFO footage is much more "triggering" for some. For many Leo is a role model and it's a bit like discovering your role model is a flat earther. The dude you've been listening to videos for ages, the dude who got you into meditation and changed your life. Yes the same dude looks at blurry pentagon footage and is already 100% convinced those are evidence of aliens, refuses to provide further proof and calls anyone who disagree with him "dense". I think this is a factor but also the frustration of people being naive and buying into theories so fast. It's easy to judge other people for doing that when you already dislike yourself for doing the same in other areas of life. "Ah if only I wasn't so naive and didn't buy into every bullshit story my mind creates!" this can make a lot of struggle that is then projected outward to other people who buy into cheap stories online. At the end of the day nobody would cry if those UFOs were actually confirmed to be aliens. Nobody would "suffer a shattered worldview". I don't think anyone actually cares about defending that no-alien worldview it's much more about the meta-POV of "Do I believe cheap stories? Am I able to admit I don't know?".

I don't know about alien, this was more about making fun of the opposite pole of what you describe.

I know who you are trying to make fun of but this is a dishonest strawman. Nobody denies the fact UFO exists or are confirmed (there are things in the sky that fly which are not identified). Some people see UFO and conclude it's aliens some people see UFO and refuse to conclude its aliens. Seeing a phenomenon you don't understand and saying "It's aliens!" is similar to seeing electricity in the 1200s and saying "it's magic!". There are a lot of things we don't understand about the universe and so far truth has always been more intricate than a catch-all explanation like aliens (or magic). If you start believing in aliens you can simply attribute every thing we don't understand to it. Expansion of the universe? Alien technology. How did ancient egyptian make the pyramids? Aliens! Why did Trump lose the election? It was rigged by aliens!!! The main problem with this world view is not that it's "too crazy" or "too radical" but simply that it stops the mind from staying curious. That's what conspiracy theories and catch-all explanations do. No need to look further, you already have a crazy explanation which is so vague it covers everything.

@dflores321 thank you I know I am not real. What happens is that things in "my mind" materialize everywhere. I don't like it and think it makes existence futile. I'm conscious of how I'm imagining almost everything in this reality. "Synchronicities" are cute. Is this just my ego (which I'm also imagining), interpreting this as negative? I just don't know how to get past it. How will I ever have a genuine conversation with "another self" if I'm just imagining them, and am conscious of how I'm doing it, and how they're just a reflection of me?@Ry4n It can't seem to be reconciled. It doesn't feel genuine. It feels really weird. @WelcometoReality I feel like an alien, completely cut off from myself and others. Like I'm just watching shit unfold. I want to feel connected. I want to have genuine interactions with people again. I've been depressed for years and it's not helping at all. How would I practice loving kindness, and how do I get out of my own way. I tend to overanalyze situations and the metaphysics of them.

@Blackhawk Case closed, no debating. While I loosely think the spacecraft, or the materials might be alien in origin, I do think that if this was designed by a human mind that figured out and imagined how the parts could work together in such a way that it could split apart mid flight maintaining control, then that is epic as hell.

It's not fear. Do you believe that the thing in that video is a alien/has alien origin?

@Arcangelo @DieFree @hoodrow trillson Seriously guys, please, that's most likely not a alien thing. That doesn't prove anything at all. I could bet all my money on that it isn't anything alien. Jesus Christ.. Embarrasing. Watch videos from Mick West: https://youtube.com/c/MickWest

Dude, the US government has been studying and collecting data on UFOs for decades. They just don't share that data with silly people like you. It would not surprise me at all if the US gov had alien spacecraft and corpses in their possession. They are not going to tell you about it.

@dflores321 "The club of no one" hahaha @Leo Gura Being God/nothingness for a while has made me appreciate being human with all its suffering so much more. I'm not sure going all the way is right anymore if it means never coming back to this relative game, isn't that what death is for anyway? I guess everyone's path is different. @TheAvatarState Loving kindness is so important on this path, God is alone in its infinite love, and as humans we are united in that aloneness. There's a narcissistic aloneness that makes you feel alien and separated, and there's a selfless aloneness that is intimately connected with all. When you look at another human being you're looking at a literal manifestation of God, which is much more profound then just a fleshy robotic meat suit I think.

From what I've gathered it's usually a sign of insecurity/hesitation, and fear of being vulnerable. There is something about eye contact that is very primal. It's important to integrate and be able to use eye contact, especially when you are trying to convey something. Whether it be emotional, persuasive, love, connection, friendship, etc. Our eyes say so much that words do not. I struggled with eye contact growing up all the way until I was about 24. I'll tell you from first hand experience learning to make good, appropriate eye contact was one of the biggest things in personal development I EVER did. It was so simple and practical, opened so many doors for me, in my relationships, work opportunities, and my sexual life. You've got to push through those uncomfortable moments you'll face when practicing, then find your style of communication with your eyes. It will literally feel alien to you for a bit, and then it will be natural. Your eyes will be "free flowing" and at ease. Instead of twitchy, neurotic, and uncomfortable.

If you want to believe there are aliens, you sort of have to believe astronomers are conspiring against the mainstream and trying to hide it from the public. The pentagon is not the only organisation looking at the sky. Evidence which is actually relevant to alien life gets published in academic papers. Just jumping to rogue conclusions from a blurry video is ridiculous. It doesn't mean there's no aliens but it doesn't mean there are either. Astronomers are probably the most passionate people about alien life. This idea that they would deny the truth out of close mindedness is ridiculous. Concluding there are aliens is silly yet concluding the are no aliens is not correct either. We simply don't have enough evidence to conclude anything at this point. Why so eager to claim those types of things as a forum member? If you really care that much get into astronomy, observe the sky and then you'll claim what you want from your observations.

No I'm not one of those. No I don't think we have figured out much. It's just that there's no good reason to believe that aliens are visiting us. There's literally not a single good picture or video of a alien or a alien space/aircraft. Only blurry footage. They could be anything. And the radar stuff could be anything: glitch in the equipment, ice crystals, etc. And the words from eyewitnesses could also be anything: lies, illusions, hallucinations, etc.

How long do you alien believers think it will take until their existence gets confirmed? I can set more reminders on my calendar, several years ahead into the future, so I can be right when that specific date comes.

when I think about it, they were both pretty naiv and alien, only that his sister was an extrovert - revealing, and, he was an introvert - concealing i can remember now, the both had strange buddies (some far relevants?) around them, not naiv This night in a dream I heard a male voice counting place names, one of them I can remember - Volnovaha

@Anahata Defining God and divinity using human language or thoughts is always a form of mental masturbation. As for the experience. Your experience versus my experience. Who is to judge whose is more true? It is how it is. Accept it and that's it. So far you are in human form on this planet and you really know as much as I do. Which is nothing. There is a very long way to go. The way of evolution. There are no shortcuts. The problem with people is that they are mainly interested in the effect, not the process. Consider yourself who you want there, God, Alien, Banana - it doesn't matter. Reality will give everyone a lesson in humility at the right time.

@Scholar Okay then, I'll bite. From an epistemological standpoint, explain to me why reserving judgement pending further study informed by a scientific cultural standard is a mistake in this instance? Let's restrict this to the vast majority of people who don't claim to have Direct Experience with these phenomena: 1 ) Whether or not aliens are visiting us is an Empirical (rather than a Subjective or Metaphysical) claim. To the best of my knowledge the claim isn't that these are ethereal experiences akin to DMT entities, but are something that exists and is experienced as a part of 'physical reality' (however you interpret that). 2 ) Even if it's not the 'Last Word' on what is ontologically true, from a pragmatic viewpoint science is extremely useful when set to examining the merits of Empirical claims. 3) Science has helped bolster the claims of diverse fields of study such as History and Anthropology, and in a sense isn't totally separate from them. Likewise, applying Scientific scrutiny to video footage and eyewitness accounts can be clarifying, as it can help account for false positives. Seems like using out knowledge of things like Optics and Psychology should be useful in that regard, no? 4) Unlike say Climate Change, there isn't an obvious downside or Opportunity Cost to withholding judgement on these matters for the time being. 5) Pointing out that an object has unconventional properties that can't be accounted for with conventional explanations doesn't definitively prove that said object is what you claim it is; namely that it's alien in origin; it very well could be, but you're not going to be able to make a definitive statement about that using only Negatives (ie it's not definitely this or that type of thing, so therefore...). Which is sufficient for making more Limited and Modest claims, but seems premature to come to definitive judgements based on that. 6) Agnosticism as to the definitive explanation for seemingly strange phenomena that's yet to be fully explored is I would argue the position of Intellectual Humility. I'd posit that at least some of these objects being extraterrestrial in origin is a not unreasonable Interpretation; going beyond that and claiming anything definitive without some sort of verification process seems grossly premature. If this were an incoming message from SETI or the possible discovery of microbes on one of the moons of Jupiter, there are lengthy verification protocols in place to make pretty damn sure that it was the real deal before saying anything definitive about it.

Did I at any point compare verification of these sorts of claims to the world of physics, or insinuate that Laboratory experimentation is the only way to 'prove' something? It seems obvious that you're projecting an expectation of someone with a Materialist Reductionism worldview, when that's not the case, nor is it what I'm arguing. No one can 'prove' that alien craft aren't visiting us, any more than someone can 'prove' that an undiscovered species of Shark doesn't exist in the Pacific ocean. In either case there's a Verification process that would need to happen before said Discovery is endorsed by the wider community. If you're right, then no doubt that will likely happen at some point.

So strange.. Don't know how to describe it. Just can't recognise myself. Bodily sensations feel odd, almost alien. Thought patterns like soup. Any movement the body makes feel strange. Everything feels strange. Fog.

Going on Holiday Why do we go on holiday? In fact, before I answer that, why do I feel the need to deconstruct in the first place? Good question. From a young age I've always loved taking things apart, mostly out of curiosity, occasionally I would put the together again. There's a small thrill in nowing how a thing is constructed and what makes it tick. More lately, I've moved on to deconstructing more abstract and intangible things, I still get my thrill dose from it. It allows me to more clearly see things for what they are, and actually enjoy it more because of it (because it becomes a choice not an imperative to do it). Anyway. The first thing that comes to mind, is that a holiday is about being somewhere completely different. This is most usually in a physically different place, although it could be in a more astract way. What's the point? I think it's really about removing the normal day to day triggers. Like Pavlovian dogs we constantly get triggered by the same things in our everyday environments. In my case I think about having a larger living space and a garden, I'm tempted by my laptop just sitting there enticing me. I'm constantly reminded of work by my work computer and monitors languishing in my makeshift office, taunting me as I pass them ten thousand times a day. I walk the same routes over again every day. I buy the same coffee from the same shop most days. You get the picture. All this triggering stops me/you from exploring other ways of thinking and being; it's a form of prison which is hard to escape from, you have to be determined and random to escape it. In fact I even built a phone app that would randomly buzz once for LEFT and twice for RIGHT, so I could use it on walks and see where I ended up! On top of being stuck in a prison of triggers, a lot of those triggers can be quite negative. Completely removing yourself from all that, allows you to temporarily escape that prison. Temporary is an interesting word. That word haunts all types of holiday. You always know that a holiday is not a solution to your problems, because you are not really escaping your problems, but simply temporarily putting them on hold. The hope is that you feel rested from a holiday. I've never found this to be the case. Not that a holiday isn't relaxing, it generally is (because you are away from the negativity of being triggered constantly), but it's never restful, because holidays are never long enough. My rule of thumb for even starting to feel "restful" is two weeks and ideally a month. Wage slavery generally baulks at having a month without productivity. Holiday pricing is set up in such a way that having a month or more off is prohibitive (especially for families with kids). I always have to restrain myself when my employer asks me if I feel "well rested and ready to go", my instinctual reaction would be to tell them to "go fuck yourself", but instead I just smile and say "yes". Going on holiday is also mostly a social event. People do go on holiday by themselves, but it's rare. Really we go to socialise. Whilst we can and do socialise on an everyday basis, it's mostly with work colleagues: people you haven't chosen to be your friends - although sometimes the odd one or two does become a friend. But in our topsy-turvy world we socialise less with the people we actually want to socialise with, their jobs and families suck all the leisure and pleasure out of them. With wage slavery we seem to think that socialising is a frivolous and indulgent activity. On a holiday we're actually allowed to socialise with the people we choose to and like, in a natural way. We are social creatures first and foremost (don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise), but we're treated like individuated commodities in the Western model and a holiday is the relief valve for this pressure. The travel to a destination can also be part of the pleasure too (although it can be hell). If it's a long distance by plane or train or even by car, we get to enjoy the sensation of going through and over alien landscapes, and get a real sense of the massiveness of the world. It can be humbling to realise that you are flying over continents, with all that weather and landscape and life going on beneath you. Or to hurtle through a landscape in a train where every few minutes there's something new to see, and sharing your experience with others. Or not rushing in your car, stopping sometimes to realise that people speak slightly differently and have different customs. Sometimes a holiday is all journey with no single destination as such, we just keep moving and experiencing novelty. We crave novelty as humans, and a holiday provides that in spades. What about doing nothing on holiday? It's a quaint expression. I'm genuinely happy to do not very much at all on a holiday: up, breakfast, walk, beach, read, afternoon nap, shower, dinner, night life, rinse and repeat. Other people are desperate to get as much activity in as possible: sighteseeing, organised activities, gym and so on. It's a mentality I will never understand, surely a holiday is also about getting away from all that planning and needing to be kept busy? Is the spectre of boredom really that scary? And other than the temporary nature of a holiday, this is the neurosis that sticks in the mind: this holiday comes at a cost and I better bloody well enjoy it and get the most out of it. Nothing would be worse than being bored on holiday, it's simply an unacceptible waste of resources (money/time); doing nothing in particular is boring for some. Finally, we go on holiday to experience different weather. Maybe it's obvious, maybe not. If your home country is one where it's cold and grey most of the year (e.g. UK), then going somewhere with bright days and a warm breeze is like being in heaven. I guess the opposite if you live say in Egypt, and you go somewhere to get cool and wet weather as relief (?). This in itself can lift the spirits, in more clement weathers there is more of an outdoor cafe and restaurant and beach culture, and those are the times when you really feel like you're on holiday: you're not stuck in your house or office all day. The simple act of being outdoors can be a relief. Being outdoors also allows you take in the local scenery and history and architecture. So how do we get the most out of a holiday? Here's @LastThursday's top tips: Go for at least two weeks if not a month Plan a few activities in advance but not too many Go somewhere with outdoor culture or with interesting things to go see Allow yourself to "do nothing" in particular most days Go with people you actually like Enjoy the journey to and from your destination Switch off everything related to normal life (don't work on holiday FFS) Ciao.