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Breakingthewall replied to SQAAD's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
What I mean is that It's not limited; it's essentially wrong. You said above that all spiritual traditions speak of transcending the ego. Let's see, traditions like Buddhism or Hinduism like the Bahavad Gita speak of dissolving the ego barrier to open your consciousness to the unlimited, to the non-self in Buddhism and to Brahman in Hinduism. This is not the same as what Tolle and nonduality say. They say that only the now is real, therefore the ego is not real. This makes no sense because the ego is something that is happening now. Tolle and nonduality tell you to be like an animal, without ego, only sensory perception and instinct, but you are not that. It's a frustrating philosophy that never works. Totally dissolving the social capsule of the ego during certain moments is essential to accessing the realization of your true nature, but you cannot completely transcend the ego, since you would cease to be human and this is impossible; you would be self-repressing an essential part of yourself. The part that communicates, that establishes emotional bonds, that projects, and that modifies reality, and all this implies suffering in more or less extent. Why would you want to do this? To avoid suffering? It's like saying that to avoid having sex, you amputate your genitals. Can you be more egotistical than someone trying to kill their ego? That's the question. Ultimately, I believe that Tolle's philosophy and nonduality are essentially limiting and toxic because they deny the human nature. I would say that anyone who believes in his philosophy and tries to put it into practice will end up frustrated, confused and unhappy. And over all, the most important: closed to the possibility of opening themselves to the absolute. No one of them would get it, because their philosophy closes. The real thing is when you realize that the ego, the external material world, and your true nature are interconnected, completely synchronized, are one. Trying to transcend your ego only locks you into a capsule. True spirituality, as I see it, isn't about transcending, it's about expanding. The ego isn't something you can transcend; it's impossible. You can repress it and thereby isolate yourself further, or you can expand it and realize that your ego is the reality. -
Breakingthewall replied to SQAAD's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
The problem with Tolle's message is that it tells you: Right now, at this exact moment, are you in pain, or is something bad happening to you? Not true? So why are you suffering? This is a recurring message in nonduality. The answer would be: You're suffering by mistake; you shouldn't be suffering, since nothing hurts. From this message, it follows that the ego, the mental matrix, is something unreal, and what's real is the body, which can hurt. This is absolutely false; the mental matrix is exactly as real as the body and hurts just as much as the body does. A zebra doesn't have this mental matrix, therefore it doesn't hurt, but a human does. When Tolle says: Look at the crazy things humans have done for something unreal, like the nation! It's something that doesn't exist, and people kill for it. Well, we could say: Look how crazy the crocodiles are, obsessed with eating so they don't die of hunger, when the body doesn't really exist; it's a collection of atoms that will disintegrate sooner or later. Tolle doesn't understand that the mental matrix is a real energetic structure, as real as the body. A new dimension of existence that is evolving at a pace several orders of magnitude faster than the physical. That it isn't something tangible and physical doesn't make it any less real. Tolle and nonduality deny this reality, and that's why they're false philosophies. Not intentionally false, but fundamentally wrong, they propagate a comforting but ultimately false spirituality that doesn't resolve, only numbs, like a drug. -
Leo Gura replied to SQAAD's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
@Breakingthewall You make a reasonable case. One oversight of simpleton nonduality teachings is that they regard ego as purely an illusion with no reality and no purpose or utility. This is clearly wrong. There is good to be recovered from ego. Like the ego's ambition to have impact in the world. And the ego's handling of material survival needs. But this is not hard to make compatible with Tolle's work. -
My Philosophy ... Introduction to Absolute Realism The End of Abstraction in Philosophy A Manifesto on Nonduality and Direct Reality Philosophy has long been dominated by abstraction — conceptual frameworks that impose distinctions onto reality rather than revealing it as it is. Absolute Realism is a philosophical framework that begins where all others falter: At the direct recognition that reality is nondual and self-evident. It asserts that all division subject and object, thought and thinker, perception and perceiver, is an illusion introduced by abstraction and not by reality itself. This work lays the foundation for Absolute Realism and establishes why it must replace all conceptual and speculative philosophies. The Failure of Traditional Philosophy Since the beginning of philosophy, thinkers have attempted to grasp reality by constructing Systems of Thought — rationalism, empiricism, idealism, materialism, and so on. Yet, all these systems share a fundamental flaw: they introduce duality where none exists. Rationalism assumes that knowledge is built upon concepts, yet concepts themselves are not reality. Empiricism assumes a separation between the observer and the observed, yet this separation is merely a conceptual distinction and is not something found in direct experience. Metaphysical Realism assumes an external world, apart from perception, yet this assumption itself is never directly found — only posited. (The list goes on) Absolute Realism rejects all these approaches by insisting that philosophy must begin and end with direct reality itself, free from interpretation, abstraction or conceptual mediation. The First Principle: Nonduality The primary axiom — or, rather, the only possible foundation — of Absolute Realism is nonduality: Reality is indivisible, and all dualities are imposed by abstraction rather than being inherent to what is. This means that: There is no gap between a thing and the means of its existence (how it exists). There is no separation between perception and perceiver, thought and thinker, experience and experiencer. All attempts to divide reality into subject vs. object, identity vs. other, mind vs. matter, are not found in reality itself — these are composed by abstract thinking. Illustrations of Nonduality To see how nonduality is self-evident, consider the following: The dancer and the dance — is the dance separate from the dancer; is the dancer apart from the movement the dance? The singer and the song — is the song separate from the singer; is the singer apart from the melody of the song? The fighters and the fight — where does one end and the other begin? These distinctions appear only when abstraction tries to separate them. However, it is always clear in the moment of direct experience that they are one. The Rejection of Conceptual Philosophy If all distinctions are imposed rather than real, then any philosophy that begins with definitions, categories, or logical structures is already in error. This means: All conceptual frameworks are distortions. All speculative metaphysics is meaningless. All systems of thought that rely on dualities must be abandoned. A perfect philosophy does not construct — it recognises. Absolute Realism does not seek to build a theory but to reveal what is already undeniably real. Knowledge as Direct Recognition, Not Construction Because reality is nondual, knowledge is not something that is built step by step, nor is it something that can be grasped as an external object. Knowledge is direct awareness of reality itself. To know reality is not to determine and define it, but to recognise it. To know the truth is not to analyse it, but to see how it is self-evident. All indirect knowledge is subject to interpretation and thus is not absolute. Implications of Absolute Realism The End of Speculative Philosophy. All theories that rely on assumed divisions must be discarded. A New Approach to Truth. Truth is not something external to be sought; it is self-evident when abstraction is removed. The Dissolution of Duality in Thought. All knowledge that depends on separation is inherently false. The only real knowledge is unity. Conclusion: The Only Real Philosophy Absolute Realism is not a theory — it is the principle of direct realisation of what is as is. Any philosophy that does not begin with reality itself is, free from conceptual division, is already a lost abstraction. The task ahead is clear: Philosophy must abandon all conceptual dualities. Truth must be recognised, not constructed. Reality must be understood as indivisible, direct, and whole. Only when we discard abstraction can we finally see what has always been real. This is the principle of direct realisation.
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@Rising Spirit Love that! I really want to be as clear and concise as possible as I am well aware of the difficulty for some to comprehend nonduality. A "provocative invitation" -I love that, anything more than that seems almost impossible for a little 45 minute talk.
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In all honesty, my spiritual journey actually began as a boy. An accidental near-drowning gave me a NDE and an OBE that changed my views forever. Granted, as viewed from a child's perspective. But after imbibing LSD in 1977, I learned the power and illumination of sacred medicines. This naturally, led to my fascination for Yogic philosophy and practices. Yes, to this day I credit psychedelics with giving me a taste of Samadhi. But honoring the spiritual paths and bringing their teachings into my day-to-day existence has become secondary nature. And when speaking before an assemblage as you will be, my advice is to be as clear and concise as possible. Few lay persons can comprehend nonduality nor the living Spiritus, given their proclivity towards factual reasoning. Therefore, it's best to present your talk as not neccussarily being a "sermon" rather, a provocative invitation and as succinctly as you can. I feel that there is a definite science to enlightenment/ spiritual awakening and as such, there is a lot of ground to cover. Play it as rooted and clear headed as you can. Namaste 🙏
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salvation___________ replied to itsadistraction's topic in Off-Topic: Pop-Culture, Entertainment, Fun
@Leo Gura This is the music I'm sure you've been looking for, as I was. This is the music you were talking about in this Blog Post about Metaphysical Music. I reccommend you to listen to the album "Utopia" by the artist Björk, here's a link to the full album. It is very experimental and avant-garde, and it is themed around a utopian isalnd in the sky with mutated birds and plants and people. The sounds sound design is very extra terrestial and phsyical. The majority of the lyrics (make sure to read them while listening) are about topics like metaphysics, universal love, submission to the universe, God (even though not explicitly), consciousness, and spirituality. In terms of content and sound it's the most directly spiritual, metaphysical and transcendental music or piece of art I've ever consumed (and therefore my favorite). I never wrote a blog post before but I did for this because everytime I listen to Utopia I think of all the nondual teachings and about your channel. I know music is not your main thing, but I know your content and nonduality very well and I can assure you with 100% certainty that if you take one hour of your day to listen to it you will be shocked at this music. My favorite songs from it that showcase what I described are "The Gate", "Utopia", "Body Memory", "Claimstaker", "Saint", and "Future Forever".Thats it from me, it would be nice if you let me know what you think of it in case you do listen to it. -
So I got into nonduality back in 2015. However, ever since I began doing therapy with my current therapist a year ago, as well as Leo calling out nonduality, I’ve been slowly chipping away beliefs and concepts I’ve gathered from it. One of the biggest traps that still controls me to a certain degree is the idea that since there’s no doer, I have no way to change the trajectory of my life and to make my life circumstances better for myself and others. Do any of you still believe this? It seems like this concept has been a major copout for why I shouldn’t make any effort to change. Edit: heh, this is my 420th post on this forum.
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thedoorsareopen posted a topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
I thought disciplined meditation would train my mind to be quiet, but I’ve found there is no such thing as that. On this level, the brain truly is just an appearance in the dream world. What seems to determine the focus or lack thereof of my mind has more to do with which ancestor or entity I’ve had in my aura lately, and how many stressors are appearing in my 3D reality. But over the past year I’ve had experiences of meditating on nonduality for 4 hours, then getting up and seeming to fall right back into a thought form of agitation. Similarly I’ve gone without meditation and reached very calm clear states of mind after a run or an orgasm. It frustrates me that there seems to be no progressive way to train and discipline my mind, it’s just one more appearance in the dream world, of which my control over is only illusory. Anyone else have this experience, oh fellow appearances in the dream world? -
thedoorsareopen replied to thedoorsareopen's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Started with nonduality, meditating on I Am. Have done a lot of heart chakra meditation. I learned Vipassana at the retreat I went to. Working my way thru the Gateway Tapes and have experimented with Carlos Casteneda’s techniques. Pranayama, energy work, a lot of chakra work, plus mantras. Starting to work with the Violet Flame and the spiritual rays now. -
I remember when Leo first started going into spiritual topics, this was I think 2018 or 2019, and I was at the right place and time to go full on into that journey with him, not knowing what I would find. It was all new to me, I thought nonduality was this radical concept. I thought I'd discovered some secret of the universe. I thought that getting into spirituality would make me smarter, more in tune, closer to a supreme intelligence, possibly even able to discover new knowledge and help improve the world in some way. Instead what I've discovered is that all of the information in my reality is and has always been carefully manipulated at all times to give me certain impressions of things, based largely on my already conditioned beliefs. The world is broken on purpose, because perfection is supposedly boring. In fact, the world is just an appearance and in my human form, I may as well be a cartoon character. And God or whatever was there the entire time, watching every one of my pains. I supposedly deserved them because I didn't learn certain lessons. Because I was making decisions thinking I was a person who lived in a world. I thought I was completely alone and made no impact. I thought my decisions didn't matter and no one was paying attention. I also thought that being polite and following the rules was the best course of action, and boy is every single piece of stimulus in my reality now determined to tell me that is not the case. Has anyone else been dragged into this storyline of how the billionaires are keeping the common man down, and golly we just gotta rise up and restore the natural order of things? I liked society the way it was. I'm not looking for a crash to the system. But I guess I had finally made a life for myself in the secular world I thought I lived in, finally figured out how to stop feeling so much inexplicable emotional pain, so now God's gotta bring the hammer down. I guess every single person I ever saw in my life was also an illusion, but I have seen so many people who had no relationship with God who were healthier than me, more energetic, happier, better teeth, more friends, more laughter, more joy. I'm not sure why I have to be God's bitch boy. I followed a religion, and the people who followed it less strictly than me got rewarded more. So I stopped following it. But I never ended up fitting into secular society much, most of my life I've been a loner. I had good friends, and none of them had any kind of relationship with God, and they also were happier, healthier and enjoyed more and better relationships than I ever did. So then I got into spirituality and over the past 5 years I have seen so many people who have all, day after day, delivered to me the most banal spiritual "advice" while living lives that seem more functional than my life ever has been. No matter what my relationship to God is, it seems I'm always doing it wrong, always on the outs, can never get it together, and everyone around me is just doing so much better than I ever have, without any practice. So is that what this is? God became man so man could sit in a hologram of self-degradation? I'm surrounded by people who don't have to have a meditation practice, who didn't have to invest several years in a "spiritual journey," but have more loving families and better teeth than I ever will? I remember when I started this shit I thought I was gonna get smarter lol... instead I just learned the metaphysical parameters of a clown world. It basically just comes down to squirting love through your diaphragm, and whoever can do that the most, wins, I guess.
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tuku747 replied to strangelooper's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
It isn't nonduality itself that is toxic tbh. Grasping the interconnectedness of all things is an important facet of awakening. However, nonduality is sometimes used as a dogma to claim that the self does not exist. It is used to deny the self, and is therefore self-destructive. To truly grasp the interconnectedness of all things, you must realize that it is only through YOU which all things are connected. And YOU are the only master of your own destiny. If your approach is to constantly deny the YOU, then your approach is too passive. If your approach is to deny the YOU in others, then your approach is too aggressive. A balanced approach would be acknowledging both the interconnectedness of the whole and the individual. You would recognize YOU as a vital aspect of the whole, capable of both receiving from and contributing to it. This avoids both the extremes of self-negation and disregard for other-selves, fostering both a sense of agency and responsibility within the individual. -
Leeo_SA replied to strangelooper's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
@strangelooper I have the impression, that you mix nonduality with duality. Duality = Table is separate from god, Non Duality = Table is god (or a part of him, a creation of him which isn't separate from himself). It just seems like a separate Identity, but it isn't. It just seems, that you are different from myself (in duality) but ultimate we are identical because we are both god. I just want to share my view of things, I am not here to argue with you or to convince you. Just find it interesting to see other views. I am curious: How are you bringing your view together with duality / non duality? When you start with solopsism, you need to be 100% truthful: You never ever experienced something outside from yourself, outside form you perception. Do you understand that? EVERYTHING around you could be fake. EVERYTHING. The only thing you can be 100% sure is, that something (you) is perceiving. That is a very Christian view of God. -
@Leo Gura And others solipsism is the absolute truth I realized but it's not the Wikipedia definition of solipsism. A person who believes In the wikepidia definition of solipsism is not enlightened because they still make a distinction between self and others hence they are derealized. The awakened person knows he or she is the entire universe and there is only one consiousness hence the duality collapses which means that's the non wikepidia definition of solipsism they believe and that person is enlightened. I realized I am the only one but by that I mean the universal me not the avatar me which distinguishes itself from other people. The awakening was so profound that I can't explain it using the human language it has to be experienced.
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*giving a shit 248 years of operating just fine, and I finally got over my childhood trauma, like literally last summer, and then this ridiculous scenario started. So I guess it’s just not possible to chill, work a job, share some laughs, and have a good life? If it’s not decades of unexplainable emotional pain, the outside world just randomly stops functioning? Why is life like this? What was the point of all the nonduality and meditation and shit? I feel the will to live fading.
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I did not write any of this this is all Leo, actually, before I became a member of this forum, I sat back and studied the crap out of it for like 8 months until I joined. Not knowing is knowing Emptiness is formed, form is emptiness" You are both emptiness and form. awareness is just pure nothingness it's a pure void or vacuum God is an Absolute Mind. A Mind which has no other and I, therefore, all-knowing and all-powerful. When you realize that reality is just your own Mind and nothing else, you will become God. That which has no other is absolutely sovereign and self-created. To realize you are God is to realize that you created yourself. If you become infinite consciousness. You will exist as a pure abstraction, as a singularity of undifferentiated Oneness. This is your true nature. If you become fully conscious the entire universe will disappear forever. You will exist as a pure abstraction, as a singularity of undifferentiated Oneness. This is your true nature. There is nothing but infinite states of consciousness. That's all that reality is. There is no such thing as unconsciousness. Unconsciousness is an illusion. The consciousness of pure unlimited imagination is so powerful it can even imagine that it is not imagining reality and that becomes what you consider reality physical reality is a dream it's purely imaginary. The greatest illusion of this world is the illusion of separation. True liberation is actually freedom from the illusion of others. You are creating all sense of other. When you realize this all sense of other completely collapses and all sense of you disappears until all that's left is the truth consciousness is love and consciousness is the only thing that can become conscious of itself. So if you don't realize that you're God and that you're love and that you are infinite nobody else can. Because you are the only thing there is, your it you have to awaken to itself. God has to awaken to itself. Stop thinking of God as someone up there who's better than you or higher than you it's you but you are stuck in your own self you have to get over yourself to actualize yourself as God. And for you to realize that you are the only thing that exists. There is only you and everyone including yourself is a construction of your own mind. The only thing creating the illusion that there is more than one is your imagination and that's why God is an infinite field of consciousness He's not truth-seeking, he's clout-chasing. These are all great insights, but ultimately to awaken you must realize that the self is an illusion. TRUTH is actually very simple to speak: YOU ARE GOD, and reality is your Infinite Dream All were doing is trying to construct hypotheses you know that fit the data that fit what we know so far always with the caveat that we don't know much and the picture is incomplete and so on. Death is an elusion of consciousness Death is a conceptual construction of your own imagination Your critique wasn't wrong but you can literally critique anything from the relative for all of infinity. Reality is absolutely infinitely relative. You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make him think. To understand the nature of Love and its myriad self-manifestations is to grasp the nature of Being Itself, for the two are in fact one." No difference between subject and object, self and world. The world is the self. the core of ego: your biological back story or your biographical, finite sense of self is a conceptual construction of your own imagination You must realize that you are God because only then will you take full responsibility for your life and only then will you really understand how profound life is and what existence is. What non-duality tells us is that every duality including the duality between god and the devil is ultimately going to collapse into a unity that tells you. Another very important principle is identity is relative and fluid so literally, there is no identity within reality other than oneness so any limited identities that you create like you as a body you as a biological organism you as somebody that was born to certain parents all of these identities you have an all relative there all constructions of your mind there not absolutely true fluid and they can change and in fact, they have been changing all of your life. are united in an infinite soup of undifferentiation consciousness break through all this bullshit and see how the mind constructs all these categories and distinctions. To see how all the things you were taught as a child all the way up through university have just been categories that were constructed by the human mind by the human race and that many of these distinctions are purely conceptual there not absolute in any sense and they will ultimately all collapse as you keep observing deeper and deeper keep meditating keep contemplating keep having mystical experiences all of this will ultimately collapse into one unity one ultimate absolute truth. This leads to the net core principle which is that absolute truth exists but it can not be thought to believe imagined communicated spoken written proven or agued. The absolute truth is unlimited it's absolute that's what makes it so interesting and special and important. Another core principle is that reality is not a physical object of any kind reality is a giant mind. Human knowledge is relative truth, not an absolute truth The problem with your logic is that all the impermanent stuff (form) is also equally conscious, and is also Absolute. You have denied the absoluteness and truth of form, creating a duality between form and formless. Truth-seeking is the spiritual quest the quest of seeking the truth this is the ultimate hero's journey the holy grail is the truth-finding the truth. Self-deception you have to really appreciate the power of self-deception. So we talk about God being all-powerful that God it turns out is and in a sense that is being all-powerful, well God is so powerful that God it turns out is capable of deceiving itself that it is not God. Now that takes real power to be able to do that but also at the same time God also has enough power to overcome that deception, but of course, that's going to take some work which is why awaking is possible so God has power in both directions God has the power to fully deceive itself and God has the power to awaken itself through all that infinite deception and that's the game we are playing here in life so it's a sort of tug of war this battle between truth and delusion. There cannot be anything outside your own MIND. Because your MIND IS INFINITE. If anything existed outside your own MIND then GOD would not be omnipotent nor omniscient. As soon as you imagine any sense of "other" you lose your omnipotence and omniscience. This is the very mechanism by which GOD becomes not-GOD. It is absolutely true that all humans are a dream. You don't like to accept that because you will feel lonely and very depressed. Therefore you refuse to surrender the imagining of other people and you blame and project onto me as misunderstanding spirituality when of course the one who doesn't understand spirituality is you. You are a perfect case study of how Buddhism and nonduality lead to self-deception and false spirituality. You have been trying too hard to be a good little Buddhist boy, but none of that will ever be enough to AWAKEN. You must destroy all of Buddhism and nonduality if you actually want to AWAKEN. Pretty obvious stuff. The brain cannot hallucinate. The brain is a hallucination More like GOD learns to trust its own sovereignty. Always be kind, always!!!! never be cruel or cowardly. Jehovah increases" is a phrase that refers to the idea that God wants to give people more of his gifts, such as wisdom, strength, and love. It is also the meaning of the names Jessup and Josefine names Jessup and Josefine. Explanation Jessup A boy's name that is a phonetic spelling of the Middle English pronunciation of Joseph. Joseph comes from the Biblical Hebrew name Yehôsêph. Josefine A girl's name that is a respelling of Josephine. It is related to the biblical name Joseph. Jehovah An approximation of the holiest name of God in Hebrew. It was so sacred that it was never written or spoke Jessup is a boy’s name from the Biblical Hebrew Joseph, meaning “Jehovah increases.” Joseph ultimately derives from Yehôsêph, which has contemporary variations like Yossi and Yosef. what is going???? on, God playing games with God? Jehovah (usually rendered “Lord” in the King James Version) appears often in the Scriptures. Jehovah means “the Eternal One, the Unchangeable One, the One Who was, and is, and is to come.” When Moses met God in the burning bush, he asked His name. “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you” (Exodus 3:14). God spoke as Jehovah, the self-existent God. infinite universal mind When I was growing up, one could say I was an introvert, but you know what I became an extrovert and respected all my friends for who they were I Love you all. Now, I am more like an introvert, And you know what, so what if you are different or weird you are part of my friendship. Jessup is a surname and boy's name that means "Jehovah increases". It comes from the Biblical Hebrew name Joseph, which is derived from Yehôsêph
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I never said otherwise; plus please quote where I said nonduality (or even mentioned the word here) was not illusory. You can definitely quote me saying in many instances that life just is, though.
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Exactly. This is precisely what I am saying. "You are god" is just as relatively true/untrue as "you are a person". "You and me are one" is just as relatively true/untrue as "you and me are seperate". "There is no time and space" is just as relatively true/untrue as "there is time and space". "Nonduality is more true, more real, more fundamental, more divine than duality" is just as relatively true/untrue as "duality is more true, more real, more fundamental, more divine than nonduality". And none of these statements are absolutely true. In other words: The belief that duality is illusory and nonduality is not illusory is the illusion. The Absolute is neither dual nor nondual. It just IS.
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Let’s start from a quote from Leo’s talk with Curt: “time is overlay or projection that universal mind is imagining on top of the now”. Similarly it can be said that “matter is overlay or projection that universal mind is imagining on top of the given conscious experience”. However, these projections are also equally part of the given “this”, of the flow of qualia of the given conscious experience happening now. Why then these projections are considered any less “true” or in any way inferior compared to the presence of the given raw conscious experience at the instance of now which we consider to be the “Absolute”? Since there is no hierarchy in the Absolute, then any overlaid projections must be equally the Absolute and must be as true and real as any other experiences, qualia or ideas. Why then ideas and projections, be them true of false, are considered inferior to the given raw conscious experience if any ideas are always inseparable from the given conscious experience? Any ideas or projections are equally qualia of our conscious experience and are in fact as “raw” as any other kinds of the qualia of conscious experience. If we experience our hands as the “reality here and now”, then the overlaid idea that “these hands are material objects existing beyond my consciousness”, if it happens to appear in our stream of conscious phenomena, is also equally consciously experienced as qualia, as the reality here and now, and there is no way to distinguish and prioritize the raw sensual experience of the hands over any overlaid idea about the hands no matter how wild this idea can be. For example, Leo says that “the shape of a castle is a concept of a second order”, but that implies the existence of a preference and hierarchy in the reality: the Being is the fundamental preferred zero-order, the raw sensual qualia are the first-order phenomena, and the imaginations and concepts are the second-order phenomena that are somehow inferior in “truthfulness” or “reality” compared to the phenomena of the more fundamental orders. But such prioritization is already an idea that belongs to the second order, and there can equally be other alternative ways of prioritization where, for example, the concepts can be claimed to be more fundamental with respect to qualia of the raw experience and to the Being itself. If fact, there is a Plationic version of idealism claiming that the Absolute Idea is the ontic fundamental, and the being, awareness and qualia of conscious experience are only secondary forms and aspects of it. So, the view that the Being-Awareness is fundamental and is prior to any concepts is only a belief and an implicit idea which lies in the blind spot of the subjective idealism paradigms (such as Leo’s, Rupert Spira’s and like). I’m well aware that we all can directly realize and experience the “indivisible Beingness-Awareness”, as I did it myself, and that’s fine, but then we construct a belief that somehow this “Beingness-Awareness” must be more “true”, more “real” and more “fundamental” as compared to all other fleeting phenomena and qualia of our direct experience, including any concepts and ideas. But that is just another abstract idea, there is actually no sound reason to believe that it is true (there are logical arguments for that, but that’s all logic and reasoning which is just another set of ideas). In order to distinguish truth from non-truth, there needs to be a criterion of truth belonging to a category of meta-truths. But there can be many criteria of truth, why prefer one over the other? In order to have a criterion of truth that is selected from all other alternative criteria, we need a meta-criterion of truth to assess the truthfulness of the criteria of truth, and by repeating the same argument we run into an endless process that never arrives to a definite criterion of truth at any meta-order. And even if we would somehow arrive at a criterion of truth at any meta-level, it would still be only an idea, a mental form among any other possible ideas or forms of consciousness with no possibility to choose and prioritize between them. Leo: “Meanings are illusions, meanings are what we construct, Being is what actually is”. The belief that the Absolute-Being exists as something of its own and as a fundamental Reality is simply one of our abstract ideas. If we carefully examine the given facts of our direct experience, we find that what we actually directly experience is only a finite flow of phenomenal qualia in our field of direct conscious experience at the instance of now, where any phenomenon (be it a meaning, idea, sensation, emotion, imagination etc) is equally present and equally real by the very fact of their presence in our conscious experience. We usually construct many ideas about this flow and about the phenomena and their origins and causal relations, but all those ideas, once they arise, immediately become equally real and equally present as qualia and as inseparable part of our field of experience. In other words, the ideas, thoughts and meanings are also simply phenomena of our direct conscious experience. This is all we can know and directly experience as facts. The unsolvable epistemological puzzle is that there is no inherent “right” way to prioritize and sort these phenomenal qualia according to their degree of truthfulness or a degree or reality, or a degree of relativity or absoluteness, because any such way of sorting and prioritizing would be just another constructed idea, another phenomenon. That includes any ideas about the primacy of the Absolute, God, Being, Awareness or whatever you want to call it. The unchangeable presence of awareness-beingness is definitely a fact of our direct experience, no question about that, but to assume that the awareness-beingness is somehow more “fundamental” or more “absolute” with respect to other phenomena is only an abstract and constructed idea. The well-observed fact that the awareness-suchness is omnipresent in our experience and never changes is not a sufficient justification to declare them to be “ontologically more fundamental”, more “true” or “more inherent” to reality as compared to any other phenomena, ideas or aspects of reality. Similarly, there is no ground to declare any of our meanings, ideas, imaginations or thoughts as “false” or “unreal” or “secondary” since they are all equally real and equally present in our direct conscious experience together with all other qualia and with their suchness-awareness. For example, what if there exists a beyond-consciousness Meta-Reality? It would be something like a Kantian “thing in itself” for us that we can never possibly know, imagine or experience, so we have all practical grounds to deny its existence based on the principle of parsimony (as Bernardo Kastrup usually argues). But such Meta-Reality would not care about our ability to experience it and about our principles, it would still exist by itself regardless of what we believe, think or perceive. We may still choose to ignore it and believe that “Consciousness is all there is”, and we indeed have all practical reasons to do that, because conscious experience is the only thing we can actually ever know and experience, and because the existence of such Meta-Reality would be absolutely irrelevant to our practical life and existence anyway. But still, this would only be a belief if we take it in a religious way, or an assumption if we take it in a philosophical way. In other words, “Consciousness is all there is” is still a limited paradigm, a belief, a choice among other possible beliefs or assumptions, and possible versions of Reality. But any belief system, no matter how practically useful it may be at a certain stage of our development, becomes a limitation at some further stage. By adopting a belief that “Consciousness is all there is” we still corner ourselves into a very specific and limited worldview, no matter how practical, comfortable or nirvanic it may be. Would not the ultimate liberation be letting go of any beliefs, including the belief that “Consciousness is all there is”? So, what if this “oneness” or “the truth of non-duality” is as much a constructed trickery of the mind as the “world of duality”? What if the “nondual Self” is as much an abstraction and projection as the “individual self”? What if we simply fool ourselves by flipping from one kind of mind-constructed view of reality into another equally mind-constructed one: from naïve realism of believing in the reality of separate subjects and separate material objects outside our individual minds and in the absolute truth of our mind constructed meanings to a naïve nondualism of interpreting the reality as a fundamental nondual “Absolute-God-Consciousness-Self-Awareness-Beingness is all there is”? The latter might arguably be more practically meaningful, functional and productive, at least for some people, but that does not necessarily mean that it is ultimately true. And what if there are other levels of realization beyond both of these mind-constructed beliefs-views of reality, and beyond any other possible mind-constructed beliefs-views of reality for that matter? Just like Leo said that any meaning is mind-constructed, but he still believes that the “Being” is prior to meaning, it would be a simple realization that there is nothing prior to anything else, and all our beliefs in the primacy of something with respect to something else is also nothing else then a constructed meaning. And then what’s left would be a real freedom from deceiving ourselves into any beliefs in the absoluteness or absolute truthfulness of anything and simply abiding in the given reality of the direct conscious experience just as it is present here and now. This is not agnosticism, not a denial of any possibility of knowledge, but a simple realization that any knowledge can only be mind-constructed, pragmatic and relative, including any realization of “Being” or “one's ABSOLUTE nature” or any other kind of “spaghetti monster” that we would want to believe to be “prior to” any knowledge. But from that perspective, we can still acquire and exercise knowledge, including non-dual realization. However, any knowledge we have will always be contingent. The difference is in the fitness of the knowledge. The fitness can be assessed from practical and consistency perspectives: any knowledge has higher fitness if it is more useful for our functioning and more consistent in correspondence with the body of facts. In that respect the nondual knowledge arguably has the highest fitness as compared to any other currently available to us.
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Don't you always insist that there is noone here who can (not) make it out alive, or do/think/say/be anything at all? Does the question you posted above indicate that you don't actually buy into your own dogma around no self and nonduality?
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@James123 You figure out how deep consciousness goes beyond basic nonduality yet?
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Who knows that darkness that remains? Im talking about the ultimate invisible light of knowing, not light photons. Not talking about light vs dark. You are basically talking out of yo ass, pardon my french 😀 Ever heard of nonduality? You are talking about ying yang as if its 2 separate things, light vs darkness and saying darkness is stronger than light. Ying Yang is a marriage between darkness and light, its absolute love, and this makes it the light of awareness. The one that knows that darkness you speak of, is the light of awareness, you need the light of awareness to know ANYTHING, including that darkness that you appearantly perceive as ultimate.
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Aaron p replied to mrroboto's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Ultimately everything must be accepted, love, peace, beauty, wonder, fear, damage, death, torture, the stars, sunsets, Nazis, bliss, torment. From the highest possible beauty to the most depraved possible evil. Light, darkness. Purity, evil. Nothing can be rejected. Even separation is included in nonduality. If there is only one thing that has and will ever exist, it is not possible for that thing to not be anything -
Leo Gura replied to Someone here's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Well, that's a big mistake. Truth requires understanding. That's not the issue. The issue is lack of consciousness and understanding. Everything that comes and goes is Truth, but there is way more to Awakening and God than that. Don't assume that your guy comprehends God. He's parroting a lot of boilerplate nonduality, which he learned from following some other guy like himself without question, which you will now repeat. And on the chain of human spiritual ignorance goes. God is way more profound and advanced than all that. But I appreciate you sharing this document. It has its place.
