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  1. I know this plot, it ends by Leo realizing that the carnivore diet made everything worse and that he reacts to vegetables even more severely than before, possibly permanently locking him into having to avoid plants for the rest of his life. Good case study on what desperation does to a mind.
  2. Excellent presentation by Dr. Sailesh Rao, people who understand Spiral Dynamics with love this especially.
  3. The suffering those soy plantations are causing by the destruction of nature, the factory farming of animals and the future suffering it is causing for itself and countless of human and animal generations due to this myopic blindness, is far greater than the would-be suffering caused by the lack of those few instutitions will cause. Ironically, it will be the poorest of the poor who will suffer the most from the consumptive habits of the meat eaters, as the effects of environmental destruction will reach those people first. Those poor plantation farmers, who destroy the very lunges that allow them to breath for the chinese upper class who desires to consume flesh, are going to be the ones who suffer the most when they realize that this was one big scam. Also, they can plant other crops that are more profitable, if people were vegan, those crops indeed would be more profitable. Animal farming is well known for being unprofitable and substituted by governments all over the world. We could use that money to help farmers who grow food for humans, not animals. The wealthy nations, and the people who live in those nations, need to realize that they profit from the preservation of the lunges of this planet, and that there is a cost to preservation that needs to be paid. There is a cost to the air we breath that we need to pay. Sadly the only people who advocate for these things that I know of are vegans, because they are the ones who have a genuine concern, rather than seeking excuses to justify their irresponsible behavior. If a plant based diet is inherently unsustainable, show me a study that proves this to be true.
  4. Animal agriculture kills animals that would have otherwise lived a natural life, and again, I think we should apply this to humans aswell to test if we are truly consistent in our thoughts. The Universe's Intelligences decided it was better that slaves existed, until it decided that it was better to abolish slavery. The same is happening right now, as consciousness will grow, the act of killing for no other reason than pleasure will be untenable to individuals and societies. The question is not whether it is better to live or not, the question is, whether it is better to allow humans to create sentient life to then eventually kill it for their own benefits. If you say this is the case, then you should have nothing against growing humans Matrix style to harvest their organs. After all, is it not better to exist for 10 years in a simulated paradise, than to not exist at all? Factory farming is the best way to farm animals without completely destroying our world. It is the most efficient way to farm animals. Beyond this I think there is a far more pressing issue here that is overlooked, and it is that humans don't make true changes with half measures. When you say it is okay to kill animals, it becomes difficult to draw the line, This is why environmentalist movements are so ineffective. You cannot truly put the line down where a human being ought to be responsible for his actions. For the amount of destruction we are causing, we require a holistic platform that will allow for radical changes in behavior. This platform cannot be half-measured, it has to be a clear baseline of moral responsibility that will be established in society and thus change our behavior. The Intelligence of the Universe decided to create veganism because it is a holistic solution that will create actual meaningful change in behavior. Notice how difficult it is to adjust your diet if you are doing it motivated for reasons like wanting to lose weight or wanting to be healthier, let alone wanting to have some abstract invisible effect on the environment. With veganism, it's not just some vague moral virtue, it is a moral obligation. And only this illusion of obligation or responsibility will create the radical change we need. Veganism gets to the core of the issue, it being how we as human relate to our brothers and sisters who share with us this world. The nature of this relationship needs to change, to me this is in fact the Intelligence of the Universe at play. Because we are interconnected, our concern has to be universal. And this evolution of relationship will not happen by us using nihilism and relativism, it will happen as a function of egoic identity. Once we go beyond survival, it will be appropriate for us to let go our our identities. This spiritual relativism is completely removed from how society currently evolves. And it is fascinating to me, because the individuals who do not evolve their egos, but rather only seek to dissipated it, are as dysfunctional as a society that would dissipate their identities before they have evolve it to a sufficient degree. We have a lot more identity to build before we can let go of it, this applies to society as much as to individuals who seek enlightenment. It is easy to neglect this fascet of evolution when you are profitting from the fruits of identity, when you have become so arrogant in your achievement that you forget that what allowed you to get there in the first place was the Whole of which you are a part of.
  5. Another great documentary about the consequences of animal agriculture, specifically fishing, and how it is by far the biggest threat to our oceans. Must watch for every person who is consuming fish, or who thinks plastic straws are bad for the oceans. It also illustrates well why this problem can only be tackled by fundamentally changing our relationship to our brothers and sisters who live in the oceans, and by making the consumer responsible for their actions. You can find it on Netflix. We can use this thread to discuss fishing and the health of our oceans. Veganism is so powerful because it is a unified ideology that tackles all of these problems wholistically. You don't need to convince a person to care about each individual problem, rather you create a new moral framework from which all of these problems are tackled at once. One story that fundamentally changes how we relate to the world, because this change must happen.
  6. Isn't that the entire point of MAPS? If what they claim is true that he is somehow seen as an authority and leader who is looked at as a model by many of the pioneers that are to establish said"official" instutitions in the future, then I would say such criticizism probably have their use. This also has a function of bringing attention and conversation to this issue in general, and makes us contemplate what kind of practices we want to distance ourselves from to be able to establish such "official" systems in the future.
  7. This is like debating what Little Red Riding Hoods grandma made herself for breakfast two days before the wolf ate her. Believe it or not, but the answer to your question depends on whatever you want it to be.
  8. The closest thing we will get to a conversation between Leo and the rationalists he always criticizes.
  9. They talk about how we need to reevaluate the way we engage with politics, applying specifically to the United States.
  10. This isn't true, meat does not contain all the essential nutrients, nor are the important nutrients it contains exclusive to meat. If the school was worried about nutrition they would simply give the kids meals that were nutritionally adequat.
  11. Because the very premise of veganism "insults" butchers and animal slavers, because it showcases that in the eyes of the animals these individuals commit atrocities. I have already posted this study a few times, but here: Vegans are inevitably going to be discriminated against because they are norm challenging, especially in regards to morality.
  12. To be fair, I did notice this too. I think Leo sometimes just doesn't take the time to properly engage because it would be too much effort, but that can often lead him to dismiss others with this authoritative vibe where really he didn't even engage with what was being said. I don't know how this applies in this thread, but I definitely felt misunderstood and strawmanned by Leo quite a few times in the past on this forum. Maybe it's the nature of the way he interacts with us here. It would be nice though if he could sometimes put in a bit more effort to understand others.
  13. While this is true, Nathan probably has already heard this, and it probably does not help him much in terms of overcoming his suffering. We have to give our brothers and sisters more specific advice for the point at which they currently are, I think. Yes it is more effort, but I think helping one person properly can do more healing than helping 10 people in a cookie cutter way.
  14. This is also a good example: This is how this attitude and culture of "Vegans are so annoying and judgemental!" leads to in the extremes. Imagine you are the boy, you love animals and you hate that other people pay for animals to be abuse. Imagine someone came to you and told you "Man, stop being so judgmental, no wonder you are bullied you are such a typical vegan!", can you see how this lacks compassion? This kid wasn't vegan because he wanted to feel superior to others, he probably just loved animals. The child most likely had a more expansive identity than all the other kids in his class. He was more sensitive towards life and had more compassion for others. Yet many people in here would focus their judgment on this kid, and tell him about how veganism is all about being judgmental and that he should stop being so strict with caring about animals. As always: