Ayla

Forgiveness

80 posts in this topic

On 6/2/2016 at 6:56 AM, Leo Gura said:

for example, had a real brutally honest 4 hour conversation with my Dad or Mom about all the accumulated baggage between us. But it's so emotionally scary we don't even want to touch that, cause people would be crying and egos would get crushed. Takes a lot of balls to do in practice.

 

Leo I recommend you do it for yourself then. I had this conversation with my Dad, only because it was recommended to me as a way to advance. I said OK and invited my Dad over. I started up the conversation then began the rant. Here are the rules I was given to follow, that worked perfectly. After the experience I felt a huge amount of the damage and pain he caused me was released, and our relationship was not damaged it improved. It was quite unexpected for me how much better I could feel without even having thought there was any reason to need to feel better! I call it take the power back, heres how it works

1 Tell your parents what they did to you (maybe one parent at a time)  that you didnt like, you hated, felt injust about, or damaged you. 

2 Tell them how this made you feel

3 You do not have to listen to what they want to say in response. 

I for example said to my Dad ¨I am not here to listen to your excuses¨ after he began to say ¨Well, thats just the way things were done back then....¨

Have complete freedom and confidence, get into the process 100% with no worries about the consequences. 

Sounds brutal, but my Dad realized alot and had to confront it. I have never gone back to being the same and dont deserve to, is how I looked at it when I felt better. 

As an experiment for us consider it if not for you. If your parents freak out and you regret it just tell them later you got some bad advice from a nut on the internet and want them to forgive you. 

 

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On 6/2/2016 at 7:04 AM, Ayla said:

I have access to forgiveness if I direct it towards myself. What I noticed in the end is that it's basically a question of motivation: do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? paradigm comes to mind. 

What also helps is focusing on the end result. All of it brought me here.. so it has its value. 

Still remains a tricky subject... 

I am at a point where this is what I know I need to reach the next level I am bubbling up to. I can forgive myself, I can forgive children, but I have trouble forgiving adults. Expectation leads to disappointment- could I really have any other expectation of an adult in out time? No just because someone is an adult doesnt mean they are wise, they make huge mistakes, are poorly trained, confused, ill. Forgive them too, dont be upset thats just going to poison your body. Stop thinking they deserve your revenge, they dont they deserve to get better just like you. Anyone has alot to learn they can all be seen as young and be given hope for profound changes in the fucture. This is what I am reminding myself of now and conditioning myself to think and feel.

 

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On 7/2/2016 at 9:04 AM, Ayla said:

What about if someone raped you... or your sister/mother? Or somebody killed your dog or your child? 

Can you see it then? ;) 

 

If you dwell on these things you torture yourself and you could get ulsers, depression and insomnia. No one deserves this so dont hurt yourself trying to get revenge in your mind hurts you too. 

Maybe you dont know how good you are at forgiving. For example you have already forgiven all of the atrosities you know about and thats alot of forgiving. You dont go around letting all the bad things that happened in history ruin your day. You could, if I tell you to focus on all the burned people in Hiroshima after the bombing, their children and  all the damage that was caused and said ¨this guy here did that!¨, you would freak out and punch him in the gut! But if you dont think about it you have already forgiven him You let it go, you let the slave drivers who profit from your iphone off the hook, you forgive the farmers who sprayed roundup on your salad, you forgive all the teachers who made you sit down for 15 years when you wanted to play outside. You are really good at this you just didnt know it. Its just not convienient not to forgive thats your truth so you pick and choose when you think you need to.. its not justice at all! So are you really better than they are, or do you make mistakes too? 

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@Kevin Dunlop

I am at a point in my journey where I really do not have anything at all to forgive. Nothing has ever done anything wrong to me. Things just happen. That is all. For example, you get burnt by fire. Do you need to forgive fire? No, you don't. That doesn't mean you'd jump into it anytime soon by the way. 

:)

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Ayla,

www.actualized.org/forum Moderator

 

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3 hours ago, Ayla said:

@Kevin Dunlop

I am at a point in my journey where I really do not anything at all to forgive. Nothing has ever done anything wrong to me. Things just happen. That is all. For example, you get burnt by fire. Do you need to forgive fire? No, you don't. That doesn't mean you'd jump into it anytime soon by the way. 

:)

yes Iam in the process of training this state of automatic forgiveness. Luckily thats all it takes for me, finding the error in my conditioning, finding a better concept, remembering to replace it enough times and then enjoy the automatic freedom of incorporated improvements. Isnt the mind great that way:) Its greatest flaw is also its greatest strength

 

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My experience with forgiveness is that its something that has to happen as part of a process.  I can't force myself to forgive.  It has to come as a step after I have processed some other stuff, maybe sadness and anger etc.    I also think that many times it is something you may need to continually do again and again.  For example with my parents I may forgive them but then more and more layers of anger and sadness may come up and I have to keep letting it go and forgiving.   Its a work in progress.

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Wisdom is settling in and experiencing reality in the moment.

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Just wanted to make a recommendation of a book:
Forgiveness: How to Make Peace With Your Past and Get on With Your Life

Very detailed and in depth book. It describes all the stages of the healing process and contains a lot of exercises.

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@Ayla @Flower What I realize is that what I think is forgiveness is actually just me overlooking the person's actions and just saying I forgive you because in my mind that is what a good person would do. But then I end up just being passive aggressive to them. How do I obtain true forgiveness and not this superficial one? 

Also, along my journey I realize how neurotic I am in my self improvement, and I was wondering if you guys have some good sources or links that would help me out (I've seen all of leo's vids on this subject). Thanks a lot guys. it means a lot :D

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The Heart of the Revolution by Noah Levine discusses forgiveness as a moment to moment letting go rather than the hard and fast, "I forgive you because I know shit happens and I also totally forget about it forever." That's unrealistic. You can feel resentful one moment and forgiving the next. What's wrong with that? Maybe with time and constantly letting the grudge rise and fall, it will die because you're not feeding or resisting it.

My last bf had a Jesus complex and reminds me a zen devil. He judged me for not "FULLY" forgiving my parents for my childhood. He said that "working on it" was not forgiveness and having any remaining negative emotions ever meant that I had not forgiven. Many people see it this way. I think it's a childish and simplistic idea. I also felt that it was devoid of compassion for me. 

Anyway! To me, forgiveness is a state of NOT feeling a grudge and that is temporary. It may last for years at a time, but it's a phenomenon like any other. 

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Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you. -Rashi

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, eskwire said:

The Heart of the Revolution by Noah Levine discusses forgiveness as a moment to moment letting go rather than the hard and fast, "I forgive you because I know shit happens and I also totally forget about it forever." That's unrealistic. You can feel resentful one moment and forgiving the next. What's wrong with that? Maybe with time and constantly letting the grudge rise and fall, it will die because you're not feeding or resisting it.

My last bf had a Jesus complex and reminds me a zen devil. He judged me for not "FULLY" forgiving my parents for my childhood. He said that "working on it" was not forgiveness and having any remaining negative emotions ever meant that I had not forgiven. Many people see it this way. I think it's a childish and simplistic idea. I also felt that it was devoid of compassion for me. 

Anyway! To me, forgiveness is a state of NOT feeling a grudge and that is temporary. It may last for years at a time, but it's a phenomenon like any other. 

I'm smiling because, after writing this, I checked out @Leo Gura's latest video and it was about anger.

What he says is true. We need to understand that shit happens. We also need to understand that we are labeling something as "shit," and maybe it's not said shit. :)

Like he said, he's laying out an ideal. So, what's the reality? The reality is you can understand and have compassion one day. Then, maybe on another day when you're tired or physically drained, you forget your understanding.

I save all of my Byron Katie work in my journal. I often have to look back at what I wrote when resentment comes back up because...well, I forgot the great insight I had. The anger I mentally repeated 1000 times got more neuropathways than the smart, compassionate breakthrough I had one time. 

This is how forgiveness can be temporary. It will most likely be that way until you are suuuuper developed. 

My concern about notions of forgiveness is that it can become neurotic. Was my ex bf being helpful when he was chastising me to be more forgiving? Never even asking what had happened to help me understand it? Am I being helpful when I feel guilty and ashamed for not being more forgiving?

Our own resentments are something to be understood and treated with compassion. They will change and maybe even disappear over the course of a process. 

Edited by eskwire
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Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you. -Rashi

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@eskwire It's true, there are moment of clarity where I feel forgiveness, acceptance and love but being angry and resentful is my default.  It's not easy to let go of an entire lifetime of stories... don't know wot to fill my mind with then.

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Reminder to self:
"Stay warm", be humble, listen to your quietest intuition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhGI0X6jhSQ

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@eskwire Thanks for the thoughtful response! That's definitely something i am going to keep in mind. I always saw forgiveness as "FULL"forgiveness, I never really saw it as something that could be worked on and maybe even forgotten over time.

Also, how do you organize your insights? I'm curious because the way I am doing it right now seems inefficient :p. 

Thanks again :) 

 

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@eskwire Ooops my b. Thought you were someone else that answered my question haha...awk

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@Vinsanity Hehe my post was relevant to your question, though! If it's any help to you, that's great. I've acted with a lot of passive aggression in my day. 

Organizing insights...I really wish I had practical advice for you! I think so much, by the time I'm ready to speak, the thoughts have organized themselves into a story. 

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Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you. -Rashi

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@eskwire Haha yeah, your post  really resonated with what I was thinking so I thought it was directed towards me :P 

Just wondering though, how did you deal with your passive aggressiveness back then? 

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@Vinsanity Well! I am less passive aggressive now but probably because I'm much more accepting. If angry, I probably still fall into passive aggressive behaviors.

We should both look into assertiveness. That's probably the skill we are lacking. Want to? :)

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Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you. -Rashi

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@eskwire Yeah after thinking a bit about these posts, I guess at the end of the day I would rather be truthful to myself and not fully forgive someone than have the image that I am forgiving someone,yet deep inside I haven't, which leads to passive aggressiveness. 

Assertiveness huh? Can you go into a little more detail about that? The correlation doesn't seem to click for me haha

And ya, sounds like a plan :)

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@Vinsanity You said that very well. Really hit the nail on the head. "I'm so forgiving, I repress all of the naturally occurring feelings that I don't control that happen in conjunction with the thoughts I don't control." The point is compassion. For everyone, including you.

To me, assertiveness is the skill of meaning what you say and saying what you mean. That doesn't have to be done from a drama queen place. It can be done from a place of understanding and simplicity.

It's something I marvel at, seeing high functioning people do business and navigate their personal lives. If we are passive aggressive, that's exactly what we're not doing.

Message me anytime. I'd love an accountability buddy on that. <3

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Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you. -Rashi

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@eskwire Yeah, that is something that I often forget but is so important. Compassion is for everyone, including myself. 

Definitely, assertiveness is something that I also strive for as well, being a low self-esteem person for a majority of my life. Now that you mention it, having assertiveness will be like killing two birds with one stone for me haha, in terms of both self-esteem and understanding authentic forgiveness.

I think I'm going to start by dusting off the book "six pillars of self-esteem" in my cabinet and start cracking down on the book :P.

And Yep! I gotchu :) 

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