What is the source of Hate and Division?

[Dabidoe]

It's clear given the state of the world that people are self organizing into smaller and smaller factions with increasing amounts of hate towards one another.

Do you think the internet has just shoved too many "different POVs" that before the internet would have had a geographical limiting factor? It seems that the extreme right/left are citing the worst case examples broadly onto larger less extreme POVs that they otherwise would not have.

A good example of this was the comments section of Lex Fridman's interview with Jared Kushner. A lot of people were culturally programmed to have one POV on the guy (as the son of satan) and were surprised that he wasn't a raving lunatic and could string together a few sentences with clarity and thoughtfulness. 

Assuming we can understand hatred and division what do you think is the solution? Is it an immutable part of the world that we divide and fight or just an ugly blip in history?

[DocWatts]

While ordinarily I might write out a mini-novella on the genealogy of hatred, I think that this cartoon sums up a major component of it beautifully. While there of course forms of hatred that come being brutalized by other people / groups, fear mixed with ignorance is a major aspect of how you get someone to hate a person/group who hasn't actually harmed them.

[koops]

11 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

While ordinarily I might write out a mini-novella on the genealogy of hatred, I think that this cartoon sums up a major component of it beautifully. While there of course forms of hatred that come being brutalized by other people / groups, fear mixed with ignorance is a major aspect of how you get someone to hate a person/group who hasn't actually harmed them.

haha nice one

 

[Schizophonia]

Food, women, integrating into a group, and everything related to survival in general.

[itsadistraction]

57 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Food, women, integrating into a group, and everything related to survival in general.

No, we all have that same problem. That's what we have in common and not what divides us. 

What divides us is false beliefs and false sense of identities like religion and nationalism.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@itsadistraction religion is believing one idea to be superior to another.

nationalism is believing in right of property over things.

 

[Dabidoe]

1 hour ago, itsadistraction said:

What divides us is false beliefs and false sense of identities like religion and nationalism.

How can we really tell what a false belief or identity is?

I like to think I try to be a good person, reject group think etc... but I'm seeing that a lot of people feel that way are doing awful things in the world. I get angry at people who say bad things, but other people probably would get angry at me for my beliefs.

Are there universal truths that are "more good than bad"? I think religion seems like a stabilizing and unifying force on some levels (spiral dynamics blue > red) but there's also so many examples of hate and division within religion.

So... should we just accept that the world's an imperfect place filled with hate as best we can?

[itsadistraction]

40 minutes ago, Dabidoe said:

How can we really tell what a false belief or identity is?

 

By questioning them.

[hyruga]

Identity is the source of hate.

Like if you identify as an American, then you may dislike the Russian or the Chinese. You don't identify as a human being but instead wants more divisions and wars of words. No matter what, you will still have certain bias based on skin color no matter what you think consciously.

The most extreme identities are of course religion, gender, workplace position, skin color, nationalities and intelligence vs stupidity etc.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by hyruga

[Breakingthewall]

War is something inherent to human beings. Everywhere there have been humans since they appeared on earth, there has been war. war without mercy, with torture and massacre. The extremely rare thing is that there isn't one, it is thanks to technology. Before, peace was just a pause between wars

[itsadistraction]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

War is something inherent to human beings. Everywhere there have been humans since they appeared on earth, there has been war. war without mercy, with torture and massacre. The extremely rare thing is that there isn't one, it is thanks to technology. Before, peace was just a pause between wars

How do we get to a future without war? If you say "it's inherent" then we will always have war. On the other hand there could be a way to never have war again.

[Schizophonia]

21 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

 

nationalism is believing in right of property over things.

 

It's true that it's fundamentally an abstract concept, but the balance of power is a very concrete thing, in fact that's all it is.

It is not because “there is no border seen from space” that I will deprive myself of keeping fertile land for me and my family, out of pure opportunism, pragmatism.
 

To give a more contemporary equivalent, you can argue all you want about the metaphysics of property, it doesn't change the fact that mass immigration is a problem for me and I will use my power to prevent it, if possible.

[Schizophonia]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

War is something inherent to human beings. Everywhere there have been humans since they appeared on earth, there has been war. war without mercy, with torture and massacre. The extremely rare thing is that there isn't one, it is thanks to technology. Before, peace was just a pause between wars

Lol.

Humans are among the kindest living beings 

[Schizophonia]

21 hours ago, itsadistraction said:

No, we all have that same problem. That's what we have in common and not what divides us. 

What divides us is false beliefs and false sense of identities like religion and nationalism.

Look at the photos of jihadists, they are almost all ugly.
You can determine with a high degree of reliability someone's hatred based on their genetic makeup.

[Breakingthewall]

15 hours ago, itsadistraction said:

How do we get to a future without war? If you say "it's inherent" then we will always have war. On the other hand there could be a way to never have war again.

I think that the only thing that prevents generalized war are the atomic weapons. There is nothing to gain from a real war, so it is not done. The trade war is made, much more productive. Everything is an evolutionary matter, war was an engine of evolution, now technology is, so competition is on another level. War will disappear from humanity at some point, hopefully without the need for a serious outbreak. 

4 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Lol.

Humans are among the kindest living beings 

Sure, complex life is cruel and make war, if not there would only be peaceful photosynthetic bacteria and plants.

[Bobby_2021]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:37 PM, Dabidoe said:

Assuming we can understand hatred and division what do you think is the solution? Is it an immutable part of the world that we divide and fight or just an ugly blip in history?

In the Israel-Gaza war thread, someone mentioned that it is absurd to expect to have peace when you cannot even have peace on this forum. That is pretty deep if you think about it. When the most conscious individuals of a society cannot come together to have peace, on a random online forum, then that really tells you about the less developed state of the world.

Conflict will always exist within humanity. I do not think it is going to transcend conflict as a whole.

Conflict on the outside is always the reflection of the conflict on the inside. If you are conflicted within yourself you are going to seek conflict in the outer world, unconsciously. People are in conflict with themselves because of their rotten psychology. They are too immature, developmentally.

As long as you operate in the domain of concepts and language, there will always be conflicts within you. That is just a function of language and constructs in general which needs conflicts and dualities to make sense. Only proper emotional mastery can get you out of the mind-numbing conflict that you experience.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

10 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Look at the photos of jihadists, they are almost all ugly.
You can determine with a high degree of reliability someone's hatred based on their genetic makeup.

Well let's talk about Zemmour then .. ho wait.

[Gennadiy1981]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

In the Israel-Gaza war thread, someone mentioned that it is absurd to expect to have peace when you cannot even have peace on this forum. That is pretty deep if you think about it. When the most conscious individuals of a society cannot come together to have peace, on a random online forum, then that really tells you about the less developed state of the world.

That’s very deep @Bobby_2021and very true if you think in meta terms. I really think as long as you have humanity you will always have conflicts. Try to contemplate on this idea, imagine a world without conflicts, I don’t honk such can exist in the world of duality. Can we have a movie without any conflict, without any challenges. For protagonist to exist you need to have antagonist. Otherwise it will be a very boring reality to live in, think about that. It’s like we need conflict to even exist.

Try to write a novel without a conflict or a scene, on one hand, don’t you want everything perfect, say describing a love couple who have perfect relationship and nothing happens to them, and they have no challenges? Or such scenario cannot even exist, note that. 

[sholomar]

Our genetic makeup combined with social media which is creating "echo chambers" of which I have been guilty of being succumb too in the past.  If you can keep an open mind, try to see things from another's perspective, question everything, and not fall prey to groupthink you'll be better off.  Better yet simply avoid "media" and "news" altogether and focus on building your life.

People think all this tribalism is a new thing when it isn't. We just have instant access to around the clock information now.  People fall into tribalism because most people are genetically wired to be passive, followers, looking for a "tribe" to find into in order to feel comfortable.  Hatred and division are driven by people's fear combined with wanting to fit in, along with cultural and economic problems such as poverty.

Edited November 6, 2023 by sholomar

[Twentyfirst]

As long as there's hate in your heart, there'll be hate in the world. You can't fight for peace and you cannot capture freedom. - Charles Manson

To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good... Ideology - that is what gives devildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes, so that he won't hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

If I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible what was the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men had forgotten God; that is why all this has happened.' - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn