New War In Israel / Gaza

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think so.

Netayahu has always been strong on defense. So it makes no sense to blame him for this. In fact, it bolsters his position because he's always warned the Palestinians just want to destroy Israel. This attack plays right into Netanyahu's agenda. I predict Israeli support for Netanyahu will increase. Similar to Bush after 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

An surprise attack from your enemy is not really a hawk's blunder. Your enemies can be skillful and clever.

From what I have picked up, Natanyahu was criticizes for a lack of response and a kind of degradation of the IDF? From what I understand this might have been one of the reasons for this strike, the perceived weakening of the IDF.

[Leo Gura]

War makes people more patriotic, nationalistic, and conservative.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Also, of course Israel is ethnonationalist. If everyone around you wants to kill you for your ethnicity and wants to destroy your country, the natural human response is ethnonationalism. This is the evolutionary function of ethnonationalism.

 

In fact, I would go so far s to say, ethnonationalism is the healthy collective response to the situation israel is in. Of course, there is a degree of ethnonationalism which is helpful, and then there is ethnonationalism which will lead to a lot of unnecessary suffering. That is the danger of each developmental stage, however.

[Majed]

@Leo Gura but leo if israel is built on zionism, does being anti zionist means being anti israel ?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Nabd said:

This war is to boost Netanyahu support.

Hamas has plenty of reason to want to do this attack.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It's backwards thinking because it is way too moralistic. What HAMAS did will not help palestinians at all, it will just lead to more death and misery.

 You can argue that what Israel does and did in the past was unjustified, but that doesn't justify blind terrorism. From the perspective of Israel none of this is as simple as it seems. 80 years ago a holocaust was committed, which of course motivated them to seek their own national identity, and of course they were willing to forgoe moral idealism to achieve that goal. They are still existentially threatened by nation-state actors around them, and so naturally will seek to secure more power within their own region.

If the european settlers were being hunted by the europeans, and found a foothold in the america's, where everyone around them wants to murder them, I would have much more sympathy for the americans if they decided to occupy a strip of the US the way the israeli's do.

Stop thinking about this in terms of morality, and look at it from the perspective of self-preservation. You have it easy because you don't have to make such choices.

If you are going to talk about moral ideals the way you do, you could justify occupying the whole of arabia because of their systematic rape and murder of women. This is a game that has no end. In fact, by your logic, any vegan is justified to go on a killing spree to kill meat eaters, or go and kill slaughterhouse workers. Because, if you believe you are morally superior to the israeli's as a non-vegan, you are kidding yourself. It's completely self-serving. In fact, even if you are vegan, your consumption of luxury goods requires the deprivation of land, the murder of individuals, and all to serve a completely trivial function, your own satisfaction, that you could gain by other means.

 

I can understand the palestinians, I can even understand HAMAS, even if they are utterly delusional and far less developed than even the Israeli right wing is. What I am disappointed in however, is that people in here have such a flat, black and white view of this.

The world is not as simple as you would like it to be.

   So it's backwards thinking because it's too moralistic, because what HAMAS is doing right now and yesterday is far worse? Does that give a free pass as to what Israel did to Palestine and Palestinians for the past 70 years of ethnocentrism, oppression and taking more land from them, because HAMAS is choosing to retaliate via rockets? How many Palestinians have died for the past 75 years under Israel, and subjugated to mistreatments, versus the death toll and misery of what HAMAS is doing today?

   Sure you'd have more sympathy for early European settlers occupying some small territory off of the native American tribes, until they grow bigger and start abusing their power and driving the native tribes to less and less land right?

   If I look at this away from a moralistic view, and into a self preservation view, what would you think I'd say and do and justify? From purely a self preservation view, I think you'd be surprised how many evil acts I can do and justify away by just stating I'm self preserving myself.

   I'm focused on the Israel/Palestine conflict, not what Arabia is doing with it's systemic rape and murder of women, totally different context and logic, same with a Vegan killing meat eaters or factory farm workers, or whatever context you jump to and extrapolate from. I'm being logical, staying mostly in context, and saying that given the objective difference in power between Israel and Palestine having very little by now, and the systemic and historic pattern of Israel stealing power from Palestinians and applying their ethnocentrism and nationalism, just like Nazi Germany did BTW, that I'm morally and logically inclined to side with Palestine in this specific situation, because it's clearly immoral, and clearly Israel has this much power that it can choose to exercise a 1 state party and try to be democratic, hence the ball is on Israel's court, and it's not handling this issue that well, hence Israel is not a true democracy but an authoritarian dictatorship ruled by Zionists in favor of an ethnostate. 

[Vrubel]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think so.

Netayahu has always been strong on defense. So it makes no sense to blame him for this. In fact, it bolsters his position because he's always warned the Palestinians just want to destroy Israel. This attack plays right into Netanyahu's agenda. I predict Israeli support for Netanyahu will increase. Similar to Bush after 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

A surprise attack from your enemy is not really a blunder. Your enemies can be skillful and clever. The reason hawks are hawks is because they realize that real threats lurk around ever corner.

Golda Meir had to resign for the surprise attack during the Yom Kippur war but maybe times have changed. Now people are united because they are focused on war but there is a lot of hatred for Netanyahu in Israel that will bubble up after, with a new passion. There was definitely a deterioration of deterrence due to his selfish and divisive politicking. Putting himself before the country's best interest. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

I think Netanyahu is a great leader from the Zionist POV. If you believe in Zionism then I don't think you can do much better than him.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura , since @Roy is flexing his masculine red pill right wing muscles:

3 minutes ago, Roy said:

No the woke/progressive/stage green/righteous/proper thing to do would copy what the rest of the world is doing and to open their border to let a flood of tens of thousands of unskilled, uneducated, coloured, sexually frustrated, violent, politically distraught, democracy opposing, single young males into their country to dilute their demographics in the sake of an idea that humanity has yet to demonstrate is even possible.

Think of the cuisine and cultural improvements to food that could happen! You wouldn't want to deprive our future children of a diverse palate would you?

   if he gets a cramp and has to resign as mod, I propose myself as a replacement for him okay? This forum needs mods like me, with more of a feminine left wing touch, to soften such a manly bald eagle. Sounds good?

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think Netanyahu is a great leader from the Zionist POV. If you believe in Zionism then I don't think you can do much better than him.

   That is sadly true, hard to argue. Birds of a feather flock together?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Nabd said:

What reasons?

Their deep frustrations with Zionist settlement expansion and occupation.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

 

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think Netanyahu is a great leader from the Zionist POV. If you believe in Zionism then I don't think you can do much better than him.

Definitely not! I am a zionist in the sense that a core belief of mine is that the Jews should have their own state. Netanyahu is basically hollowing out the secular liberal Zionism that has built the country and alienating (even demonizing) the people  who contribute the most to it in terms of economy and defense. He is divorcing Israel from the West and making it a predominantly religious and a more autocratic Middle Eastern state similar to Turkey.  And the religious people tend to contribute less to Israel's economy and its standing in the world. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Vrubel

[Scholar]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   So it's backwards thinking because it's too moralistic, because what HAMAS is doing right now and yesterday is far worse? Does that give a free pass as to what Israel did to Palestine and Palestinians for the past 70 years of ethnocentrism, oppression and taking more land from them, because HAMAS is choosing to retaliate via rockets? How many Palestinians have died for the past 75 years under Israel, and subjugated to mistreatments, versus the death toll and misery of what HAMAS is doing today?

   Sure you'd have more sympathy for early European settlers occupying some small territory off of the native American tribes, until they grow bigger and start abusing their power and driving the native tribes to less and less land right?

   If I look at this away from a moralistic view, and into a self preservation view, what would you think I'd say and do and justify? From purely a self preservation view, I think you'd be surprised how many evil acts I can do and justify away by just stating I'm self preserving myself.

   I'm focused on the Israel/Palestine conflict, not what Arabia is doing with it's systemic rape and murder of women, totally different context and logic, same with a Vegan killing meat eaters or factory farm workers, or whatever context you jump to and extrapolate from. I'm being logical, staying mostly in context, and saying that given the objective difference in power between Israel and Palestine having very little by now, and the systemic and historic pattern of Israel stealing power from Palestinians and applying their ethnocentrism and nationalism, just like Nazi Germany did BTW, that I'm morally and logically inclined to side with Palestine in this specific situation, because it's clearly immoral, and clearly Israel has this much power that it can choose to exercise a 1 state party and try to be democratic, hence the ball is on Israel's court, and it's not handling this issue that well, hence Israel is not a true democracy but an authoritarian dictatorship ruled by Zionists in favor of an ethnostate. 

You need to re-read what I wrote, I have no interest in a conversation with you if you lack basic comprehension of my points.

 

1 minute ago, Roy said:

No the woke/progressive/stage green/righteous/proper thing to do would copy what the rest of the world is doing and to open their border to let a flood of tens of thousands of unskilled, uneducated, coloured, sexually frustrated, violent, politically distraught, democracy opposing, single young males into their country to dilute their demographics in the sake of an idea that humanity has yet to demonstrate is even possible.

Think of the cuisine and cultural improvements to food that could happen! You wouldn't want to deprive our future children of a diverse palate would you?

Europe needs migrants because of their collapsing demographics:

 

This is another issue where in reality there are no good solutions. Israel is in a situation where it is acting in self-preservation, facing actual genocide by other nationstates if they weaken, while the palestinians obviously suffer the consequences of that self-preservation drive, and having their own self-preservation drive, they will of course fight as well.

Often times when we face true dilemmas, we tend to moralize. We don't believe that there are "unresolvable issues", we will sooner delude ourselves than face the truth in that way. We will think that one side is simply correct.

If you are not a sociopath, it is exceptionally difficult to actually admit to the flow of nature. To realize that if the gazelle does not escape the lion, it will be eaten alive, and if it does escape the lion, the lion will starve. There is no good resolution here.

 

This is what reality is, and this is what the palestine-israel conflict is. It is not nearly as simple as the ukraine-russia conflict. We also tend to enjoy moralizing about the past. We like to point at european colonialism, not realize that people back then were driven by survival to a degree we cannot really fathom today.

The reality is, if you did not enslave other people 2000 years ago, you would be weaker than a society that will enslave people. This means, if you did not want to be enslaved, you will have become the slave. Slavery was a necessity of human evolution.

And so was colonialism. It just takes one actor, out of all nation actors of the world, to engage in colonialism, for everyone to be required to engage in it lest they will become colonized. Life is a competition in that way. Most often, you are not given the choice whether or not to engage in moral atrocities.

 

People here in the west, like people on this forum, criticize the Israeli state, which is acting as a direct result of real self-preservation forces, while they themselves commit moral atrocities they are completely ignorant of, and are even unwilling to admit are atroctiries. Not because of pressures of self-preservation, but simply because of laziness.

[Leo Gura]

I don't think Netanyahu is as bad as liberals make him out to be. He is a reasonable guy. Right-wing but not insane right-wing like MAGA or fascists. He is not some dictator.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Nabd said:

You guys don't get the depth of how much fake all these conflicts are.

Do not spread wild conspiracy theories unless you have solid evidence.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Ulax]

Man this is so brutal.

I watched some of the footage, and its just brutal slaughtering of civilians in their homes.

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think Netanyahu is as bad as liberals make him out to be. He is a reasonable guy. Right-wing but not insane right-wing like MAGA or fascists.

But he did erode his country's democracy:

 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

7 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

 

Definitely not! I am a zionist in the sense that a core belief of mine is that the Jews should have their own state. Netanyahu is basically hollowing out the secular liberal Zionism that has built the country and alienating (even demonizing) the people  who contribute the most to it in terms of economy and defense. He is divorcing Israel from the West and making it a predominantly religious and a more autocratic Middle Eastern state similar to Turkey.  And the religious people tend to contribute less to Israel's economy and its standing in the world. 

   You're really a zionist?

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 Absolutely!  

[Danioover9000]

@Nabd

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

You guys don't get the depth of how much fake all these conflicts are.

Check the statistics Raze posted and maybe you would understand that its fake.

Netanyahu sacrificed those poor civilians living around Gaza, Hamas sacrificed the civilians in Gaza, the result is net positive for the right wing on both parts of the deal. It sounds too simple to be true yet there are lots of facts that support my claim but people would rather believe it is a real war and give it lore and background.

You need to see the whole middle east as one bloc, dont get too focused on one particular event and try to dissect it.

   I agree with @Leo Gura, you're getting into crazy conspiracy space, human sacrifices is a bit much in either side. Sure there's conflict and people getting killed, but sacrifices? it's a bit of a over reach there. I understand your passion though, just don't go over board onto the conspiracies.