New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

13 minutes ago, kenway said:

A question for the pro-Israelis in this thread.

If the situation was reversed and it was you who were the ones stuck in Gaza, with 30,000+ of your people killed so far, 12000 of whom were children, your homes are being destroyed, your people humiliated, you are stuck in the desert in tents, not knowing whether to go north or south, and with no place left to go....

... would you want people to speak out, passionately, in order to save you?

... or would you want people to simply shrug their shoulders and be indifferent about it?

Think hard on this.

If my country was educate to terror and violence and sadistically attacked the neighbor country I would be ashamed and would justify the counter attack and thought we have no right to exist as a state right now if the situation was reversed as you mentioned, and probably I would immigrate to Portugal 🏞

Edited January 8 by Nivsch

[kenway]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

If my country was educate to terror and violence and sadistically attacked the neighbor country I would be ashamed and would justify the counter attack and thought we have no right to exist as a state right now if the situation was reversed as you mentioned, and probably I would immigrate to Portugal 🏞

 

Thankyou for replying.

I appreciate your perspective if that is what your truth is.

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is a justification of terrorism. Plenty of terrorist groups exist while no one has oppressed them. If bad policy is enough of a reason to start terrorism, then we should have l lot more terrorism in this world.

These people want to exterminate Israel. They have funneled in millions of dollars from Iran to build a trained terrorist group. This does not happen because they were too oppressed.

The only reasonable solution is to set up an international Committe that would be responsible for enforcing law and order in the region. As long as that is not the case Israel, can and should take matters into their own hands.

If you cannot do that, then things will resolve itself through war on its own.

Is there a Palestinian state? Do they have a military? Do they have a border? Get these things in order.

A common theme is that terrorism never ends well. So end it as soon as possible. 

If your child was put in a cage and trialed at a military court for throwing rocks at a soldier and random soldiers came as they pleased by breaking the door searching without a warrant you would feel oppressed. Also forgot countless checkpoints just to move around your country and not being hit by snipers without warning.

Saying there is no oppression of Palestinians when there have been countless reports from many international organizations is pure delusion.

Talk with some Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza about their daily life and you will see for yourself.

Easy to say there is no oppression from your comfortable first world country in Israel or wherever you live without a worry in the world.

Edited January 8 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, Vibes said:

@Nivsch 

Dude... You just can't put yourself in their shoes can you? And you have the audacity to define what sd yellow is in your signature.

I lost patience with you. You are choosing to be a devil and all you do is justify your devilry. 

The reason you are not patient now is inside you.

I don't like many things that are hapenning now in Gaza and if I could, it would do it otherwise and in a more clean way.

But, all of you fail enormously to enter Israel's shoes and you are totally clueless about the reason Israel lost its patient and explode on Gaza after 30 years of torture and fear (and many-many polite and surgical operations...) Israel citizens are going through and are exhuasted from.

Edited January 8 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Nivsch said:

30 years of torture

Timeline of Israel-Palestine fatalities 2008-2023 - 2023 Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

6400 Palestinians killed compared to 300 Israelis since 2008.

If you call 300 dead torture imagine what Palestinians must feel like.

Numbers are the fundamental proof about who is butchering who here.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi The blame in your data is 95% on hamas who hide, disguise, and use civilians what lead to those sad results in those operations that had a surgicality of 70% on average which is quite good considering their cynical tactic.

Edited January 8 by Nivsch

[kenway]

 

8th January 2024

“Bolivia acknowledges South Africa's historic step in defending the Palestinian people, urging international support in light of the UN report documenting over 21,000 deaths since October 7, 2023, mostly children & women, revealing Israel’s inhumane actions.”

 

 

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is a justification of terrorism. Plenty of terrorist groups exist while no one has oppressed them. If bad policy is enough of a reason to start terrorism, then we should have l lot more terrorism in this world.

These people want to exterminate Israel. They have funneled in millions of dollars from Iran to build a trained terrorist group. This does not happen because they were too oppressed.

The only reasonable solution is to set up an international Committe that would be responsible for enforcing law and order in the region. As long as that is not the case Israel, can and should take matters into their own hands.

If you cannot do that, then things will resolve itself through war on its own.

Is there a Palestinian state? Do they have a military? Do they have a border? Get these things in order.

A common theme is that terrorism never ends well. So end it as soon as possible. 

What should define a terrorist? A few notable people including John Meirsheimer have stated that Hamas are a resistant group at its core, but with terrorist tactics at its periphery that should be condemned and rightly so. What’s being condemned isn’t the cause itself which is a just one (emancipation) but the methods and actions used in the name of that cause. A rebuttal to this will be then what defines a just or unjust cause?

Like you said, terrorist groups exist while no one oppresses them and just for their own sake or for unjust causes they deem just - a cause that includes infringing upon other peoples territory or sovereignty with a orientation towards globalism. A unjust cause and a real threat to be thwarted by a coalition are groups with expansionist aspirations who rely on violence - whose ambition isn't just a homeland but all lands.

A important detail that's left out in discussion knowingly or unknowingly is the context of occupation and oppression which are both to be resisted against. There's a difference between a resistance organisation with terrorist tactics vs a terrorist organisation with terrorism as its main strategy and operating system. A resistance group like Hamas choose terrorist tactics like a tool out of a toolbox to achieve their objective - terrorism itself isn't an objective. They aren't a threat to Europe or the region who’s will is to impose sharia law on everyone like ISIS for example. If they were the threat their presented to be more of the world would be in support of this war despite the 'collateral' damage - as the world come together against Nazism.

Resistance is baked into occupation - it can be expected until that occupation has completely subjugated the original population, genocides or cleanses them or more humanely has finally integrated them into a democratic state (unlike anything similar to apartheid). How this occupation is resisted will differ - India mostly had peaceful resistance against British occupation while the Algerian, Kenyan, Vietnamese or South African resistance included violence. Are Nelson Mandela from South Africa or Matt turner from the slave revolt terrorists?

Edited January 8 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

You guys love talking about this war a lot huh

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

5 hours ago, kenway said:

A question for the pro-Israelis in this thread.

If the situation was reversed and it was you who were the ones stuck in Gaza, with 30,000+ of your people killed so far, 12000 of whom were children, your homes are being destroyed, your people humiliated, you are stuck in the desert in tents, not knowing whether to go north or south, and with no place left to go....

... would you want people to speak out, passionately, in order to save you?

... or would you want people to simply shrug their shoulders and be indifferent about it?

Think hard on this.

   Guarantee no pro Israel will contemplate this seriously, due to distortion, denial, and their ego's attachments, ideological beliefs indoctrinated, their self biases and preferences challenged, their social and cultural programming, their psychology and personality, their cognitive and moral frameworks established in their worldview would get challenged, and the values indoctrinated into them getting challenged. Most people don't like getting challenged and opening their minds like this when the objective situation makes both sides close their minds down for survival of their minds.

   Also, hard to visualize or imagine in big number scales, already estimate of 100-200 objects is hard to imagine, as Dunbar number theory would suggest here. Humans don't do well with imagining 1,000,000, or 100,000, or even 10,00 and 1,000, but around 100-200 is feasible.

[bariumly]

5 hours ago, Vibes said:

@Nivsch 

Dude... You just can't put yourself in their shoes can you? And you have the audacity to define what sd yellow is in your signature.

I lost patience with you. You are choosing to be a devil and all you do is justify your devilry. 

bro don't waste your time with him , he's just a keyboard warrior. 

[Danioover9000]

   @Leo Gura, @Carl-Richard, @Space and other mods, and also users here, your opinions on this video?

   IMO, I thought about this, but I consider it probably a better USA strategy, since they're allies with Israel, why don't they get directly involved in this conflict? Why don't Biden send some USA military units and establish a base near Gaza/West Bank, to both signal officially a coalition between them and Israel, but in secret a military presence in Gaza/West Bank would force IDF to limit their bombing attacks on buildings? I think the 'prime directive' here from USA should have been put aside and they should have been more involved militarily, at least to both check and control IDF aggression, but also to help preserve social infrastructure for Palestine?

[Lyubov]

Let’s be realistic with the current situation 

USA will not stop supporting Israel for many geopolitical strategic reasons 

USA probably does not have nearly the amount of sway or ability to call a ceasefire. They are knee deep and entangled with Israel and don’t have the sway to likely get one. Their only method of forcing a ceasefire puts USA strategic interests in jeopardy  so as much as they would like one it’s not possible. Israel is like a rabid uncaged dog that the owner is only in the position to continue to support but has marginal control over what it does 

usa has lost a lot of influence recently 

Edited January 8 by Lyubov

[Danioover9000]

@Lyubov

3 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Let’s be realistic with the current situation 

USA will not stop supporting Israel for many geopolitical strategic reasons 

USA probably does not have nearly the amount of sway or ability to call a ceasefire. They are knee deep and entangled with Israel and don’t have the sway to likely get one. Their only method of forcing a ceasefire puts USA strategic interests in jeopardy  so as much as they would like one it’s not possible. Israel is like a rabid uncaged dog that the owner is only in the position to continue to support but has marginal control over what it does 

usa has lost a lot of influence recently 

   Which is why I think it maybe necessary for them to send in some US military in that area. They will still show support for Israel, but US presence in Gaza/West Bank would maybe make IDF think twice over carpet bombing buildings too much?

[Lyubov]

28 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lyubov

   Which is why I think it maybe necessary for them to send in some US military in that area. They will still show support for Israel, but US presence in Gaza/West Bank would maybe make IDF think twice over carpet bombing buildings too much?

It’s hard to say. USA is also struggling with their decision making on this and all the conflict of interests back home and abroad. USA “checking” their own ally sends messages to Iran that there are cracks in this coalition that can be exploited. They may just try and escalate in some form through their proxies if they sense a lack of coordination. But also simultaneously I think the one guarantee Israel has is the USA will step in if Iran escalates. It’s also an election year in the USA, Biden administration does not have the same backing as previous presidents on Middle East policy. Isolationist influences. General grid lock and even funding for Israel war effort put under scrutiny like Ukraine. To say the least this is not a unified USA with a cohesive and decisive foreign policy. Israel is very much unchecked here. 

[Merkabah Star]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But, all of you fail enormously to enter Israel's shoes and you are totally clueless about the reason Israel lost its patient and explode on Gaza after 30 years of torture and fear (and many-many polite and surgical operations...) Israel citizens are going through and are exhuasted from.

You live in a bubble consciousness. You are programmed and brainwashed. 

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

You live in a bubble consciousness. You are programmed and brainwashed. 

I prefer the direct experience + Israeli media programming above the hamas-aljazeera-bbc one 😇

Edited January 8 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lyubov

   Which is why I think it maybe necessary for them to send in some US military in that area. They will still show support for Israel, but US presence in Gaza/West Bank would maybe make IDF think twice over carpet bombing buildings too much?

Israel doesn’t really care what the USA thinks or the world.. it’s an ego on overdrive. 

[Merkabah Star]

Just now, Nivsch said:

I prefer the direct experience + Israeli media programing above the hamas, aljazeera and bbc one 😇

Yes, the Israel media is programming, good point. 

BBC, aljazera and major news channels in everyone’s country aren’t just making it up, we see the destructions and death, you don’t.