New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Also the evacuation from Gaza in 2005 and all the offers to the palestinians to have more than 95% of the west bank area, adding to that the other agreements in the 90s including Oslo, Y and Hebron all of that are a big hole in the "Long term ethnic cleansing" theory.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura Whats your point? Palestinians are still going to live in Gaza after this war. As ugly as this war is, demographically speaking it won't do much on the Gazan population. If anything it will give them a chance to have responsible government that does not dehumanise them. 

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

@zazen Your propaganda is getting more cringy and petty.

No need to be rude. I gave you the respect and civility to reply cordially at length as we were having a good discussion 3 pages back but the thread got flooded since. Me sharing posts of geopolitical takes from Dugin or prominent members of Israeli society (Herzog writing on a bomb) who exert actual influence and can shift policy in Israel isn't propaganda - I'm not quoting / cherry picking random Israeli's or far right extremists like like Ben Gvir, neither am I sharing mutilated body images from Gaza to stir up hate which I could easily do. 

Sharing that information is obviously like sandpaper to the ego as it doesn't make Israel look good.  What's cringe is when Israel apologists get confrontational over it and into a mental cage with those who share a different perspective, then verbally jew-jitsu around opposing points the IDF have successfully propagandised them into like online Jewhadists - that's me being petty now. It's all love though.

Here's where we last left off in case you missed it:

On 25/12/2023 at 6:36 PM, zazen said:

I can understand that it can take a dispassionate look at reality to come up with the most compassionate actions that don’t seemingly look compassionate. Most sane people either side agree to want peace and prosperity - I think they differ on the best method to getting there (war vs ceasefire for example) and how it will manifest (a Palestinian state militarised vs de-militarised for example or occupied by some Israeli presence / security apparatus).

 
Part of integrating is elevating. Maybe in the case of war this means not losing the dynamic of war but elevating the nature of it to a non physical domain. Instead of physical war which spills blood we elevate it to a war of idea’s spilt onto the table of discussion - though I do realise for that to take place there first needs to be a certain amount of peace that allows the fight or flight response to not be present blunting either sides ability to reason with eachother. This seems to be the reasoning behind a ceasefire beyond the simply instinctive response to stop bloodshed and which people can easily virtue signal with.

“This war is not going to take away any underlying causes, only a bona fide peace treaty can do that. This war is about removing Hamas and Gaza's military capabilities. I assume that after the war Israel will retain some security control like it has in the West Bank.”

 

People will argue that whatever designates security control is part of the underlying cause that keeps the cycle going. That is the current status quo which you rightly pointed needs changing but which there isn’t a clear objective solution to except remove Hamas and continue as is until Hamas 2.0 props up or a West Bank style security presence which also gets resistance and condemnation for the settler expansion IDF are complicit in by their lack of prosecution. Having laws aren’t enough but rule of law and implementation of it is needed also.

 That keeps the situation as an occupied / occupier dynamic which Israel will deny or say it isn’t an accurate label of the situation because they know what comes from that isn’t in their favour legally / morally. If Palestinians aren’t given a state in the full sense and Israel remain in some way then it needs to be called for what it is which is occupation or a one state within which different districts with different laws exist for different peoples akin to apartheid.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal when its a horrible  inhumane thing.It is even worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine. At least Ukranians are allowed to keep their homes 
@Leo Gura

Edited December 27, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

that horror in october that was celebrated by Gazans citizens in the streets

It was celebrated in many places for many reasons. 
First of all people did not know you had massacres of civilians, it looked at first like a military operation where for the first time Palestine took back the land that was stolen from them illegally by Israel in 1948.

So plenty of reason to celebrate about that.

Now if you show people footage from the massacred civilians I doubt people would celebrate as much.

Lastly, the number of people wrongly massacred is not as high as Israel says. From what I saw its around 800 total civilians killed and from those 200-300 were killed by Israel due to the IDF panicking and making errors, especially in the music Festival.

The true death toll of civilians killed by Hamas unjustly is around 500. 40 or so being childreen.

Definetly a big number but no near close the 20.000 and especially 8000 kids killed by Israel

Since childreen are always innocent and cannot be blamed either for Israeli oppression nor Hamas terrorism I will focus on them.

8000:50 is around 160 ratio

So 1 child killed in Israel, you have 160 killed in Gaza. And the ratio will keep increasing each day.

I dont know how this is acceptable in any way.

Even the Nazis at the peak of their insanity had a 100:1 ratio.

Let that sink in

Edited December 27, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Girzo]

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal when its a horrible  inhumane thing.It is even worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine. At least Ukranians are allowed to keep their homes 

It's not acceptable. I think you are reading too much into his words trying to find he thinks it's acceptable.

[_Archangel_]

@Vrubel I suggest you check the vocabulary and the definitions approved by the UN of "Genocide" and "Ethic Cleansing"

@Nivsch It's good that you are atleast admitting the massacre.
The problem is that you still think it is an act of defense and the overreaction is somewhat excusable. 
A conscious state shouldn't act in terms of "patience" or "vengeance", but through compassion and love.

[Vrubel]

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

From the perspective of the Palestinian cause they are lucky they have nowhere to go and nobody wants to take them in. They are basically forced to sit out this war on their own land. From a human POV, it's disastrous. 

If we talk about the West Bank, yes there is settler violence which is relatively small scale and dumb Israeli foot shooting. I think settlers that do violence should be expelled from the West Bank. The other side of the coin is that Israel (in normal times) gives Palestinians high-paying employment and access to its hospitals when they suffer from special cases that they cannot treat themselves. The West Bank is much wealthier than for example the country of Jordan or Egypt and let alone places like Syria and Lebanon. The only scenario where I can imagine West Bank Palestinians getting expelled is if they get an independent state, organize themselves, and do a 7/10-like attack on Israel.

 

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal
@Leo Gura

I am saying that Israelis are being devils.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

When people point out that 'cruelty is the point' of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, it's to this that they're referring to.

Really, the far-Right in Israel is exhibiting something very similar to the type of mentality that led to 'sun down towns' in the United States up until just a few generations ago, where black people could be openly lynched if they were caught in a white neighborhood after sunset. The point was to make life so miserable for an ethnic minority that they would just give up any hopes of trying to better thier situation, and just leave.

Edited December 27, 2023 by DocWatts

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I am saying that Israelis are being devils.

and what about the fact that in the past multiple Palestinian leaders such as Yasser Arafat refused to make any peace deals or treaties that Israel Israel offered them?

Why didn't it work out in Oslo during the 90s?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hardkill

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura as long as Hamas are in power, peace will never happen? Should they not be removed? 

[Raze]

19 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

@Leo Gura as long as Hamas are in power, peace will never happen? Should they not be removed? 

The Israel government is a larger obstacle to peace if we are being honest. Netanyahu openly brags about stopping a two state solution. Prior to Oct 7 Hamas tried to push for political solutions and changed their charter to no longer call for ending Israel. Israel refused to respond to peaceful protests or attempts at political solution because they want to force Gazans to have no option but violence to justify a violent response.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[Joel3102]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

The Israel government is a larger obstacle to peace if we are being honest. Netanyahu openly brags about stopping a two state solution. Prior to Oct 7 Hamas tried to push for political solutions and changed their charter to no longer call for ending Israel. Israel refused to respond to peaceful protests or attempts at political solution because they want to force Gazans to have no option but violence to justify a violent response.

Hamas want to end Israel. What makes you think they’d stop fighting if they were given a state? You’re putting too much stock in a couple of public statements.

Although I agree Likud doesn’t want a two state solution either and they never have. No one is blameless here.

[Leo Gura]

It takes two to tango.

[Raze]

36 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Hamas want to end Israel. What makes you think they’d stop fighting if they were given a state? You’re putting too much stock in a couple of public statements.

Although I agree Likud doesn’t want a two state solution either and they never have. No one is blameless here.

As of now they changed their charter to no longer call for the destruction of Israel. Maybe they’re saying it now but that’s because Israel is at war with them. What should be the focus, the hypothetical possibility hamas would want to end Israel even if Palestinians had a state, or the fact Israel right now is refusing to give Palestinians a state and trying to ethnically cleanse them. If Israel just keeps repeating the current status quo of blockading and torture, followed by an attack from Palestinians, followed by brutal Israel response, there will never be peace. If we can’t listen to public statements then Israel should just violently occupy Palestinians forever because they may attack Israel? 

If hamas is what’s standing in the way of Israel giving them a state, why did Palestinians not get a state before Hamas was founded? Why was the West Bank not turned into its own state and freed from occupation and settlers after Hamas was driven out? Why isn’t Israel offering Palestinians a state if Hamas steps down?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Nivsch It's good that you are atleast admitting the massacre.
The problem is that you still think it is an act of defense and the overreaction is somewhat excusable. 
A conscious state shouldn't act in terms of "patience" or "vengeance", but through compassion and love.

I am not admitting any "massacre".

I admit an intention to kill only terrorists but a more lose outcomes because of the explanations I wrote.

Every country would behave the same and most likely more if cornered in such a way as France just admitted for example.

The inability to see Israel's point of view here is amazing to me.

But what can I expect when stage red highly manipulative propaganda like al jazeera gets probably high rating from here.

At least if the discussion was fair and every claim was accompanied by an earthly wording explanation. But no, 95% are slogans and cloudy words.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch Israel's point of view has been fairly addressed and discussed and it seems to me that the most of us here accept that Palestinian and the others Arabic elites are part of the problem. 

None of the above though justifies what Israel has been doing in the west bank and in Gaza, and the more you gather details the more it seems like deliberate action rather than incompetence. 

More than 10000 civilians have died. 

And if you say "what else could they do?" than you are basically accepting the massacre. Or should I still call it "collateral damage"? 

Do you realise this line of thinking can be used to justify Hamas right? 

 

 

[zazen]

“Killing with bombs is something you do from afar. IDF soldiers looks at screens and hit some buttons, and poof, there’s a tiny explosion cloud. It’s not like looking someone in the eye as you run them through with a blade. It’s distant. It’s detached from reality.
 

Another part of it is that with bombs you can say you’re not intentionally killing civilians, even while you take actions that you know will kill a lot of civilians like firing military explosives into a densely populated area. Ostensibly it’s not that you want to kill civilians, it’s that you don’t care enough about their lives to refrain from killing them in that instance.
 

These dynamics help protect the people deploying the bombs from the guilt and trauma of killing large numbers of civilians, which actually makes it easier for them as a collective to kill large numbers of civilians. It lets them feel like they’re perpetrating less evil when in reality they are perpetrating more. Which of course benefits the power structure who is ordering them to deploy the bombs.

 

It’s like the invention of execution by firing squad: people in power needed to be able to kill their enemies, so they invented a system wherein multiple executioners fire at the victim simultaneously so that none of them can be sure that they fired the fatal shot. Sometimes one of the guns would even contain a blank cartridge, thereby feeding into the executioners’ ability to compartmentalize away from the reality of what they were doing by letting them believe they may not have even fired a bullet. This method of execution allowed for executions to continue in whatever numbers were deemed necessary, without putting a drain on troop morale.

 

With bombs the same dissociation dynamic is used to a much, much deadlier effect. Both the public and the troops are given the ability to psychologically compartmentalize away from reality and pretend no great evil is being done, the end result of which is to allow much, much more evil to be done. Israeli forces are massacring Gazans no less brutally than if they were mowing them down with machine guns or stabbing them with bayonets, but because the method of massacre lets them dissociate, it allows for a much higher degree of compliance from the troops and a much higher degree of consent from the public.
 

A tremendous amount of depravity hides behind the completely baseless western delusion that murdering people with bombs is less of an atrocity than murdering them with bullets or blades. In reality, murder is murder and dead is dead. The sooner we can get real with ourselves about that as a civilization, the better.”

Edited December 28, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_

To understand something logically like an history lesson is not enough. It is interesting that when it comes to the palestinians responsibility to the problem, the "understanding" here is conceptual and logical almost like to understand dry data and numbers.

But when it comes to Israel responsibility it is really enough to just read an article about a stupid soldier who robbed a grocery store, to be so attached to it emotionally and throw it on the entire military forces, that by the way, are now sacrifice themselves and their lives in one of the most dangerous and trapped war zones in the world.

Part of them are half kids that are not less deep or less loving than me and you.

Oh no but they are "soldiers", they are just "IDF".

No they aren't.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch