New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

There are facts and then there are the moral judgment of those facts. The fact is both sides commit terrorist acts and are devils committing evil. The scale of a act doesn't absolve the agent of that act from being labelled a terrorist, there can be state terrorism too. If we say Palestinians are Hamas's first victims or any people who the terrorist claim to be fighting for - we have to ask what enables the existence of those terrorists in the first place, what enabled their cause they claim to fight for? 

As far as legalities, it's in the Palestinians right to resist occupation, even armed resistance - a legal grey area comes when they start using terrorist methods and attacking civilians yes.

They are occupied and addressed as such by all the relevant bodies and nation states including the US and UK who are Israel's allies - so that isn't even disputed which is a common rebuttal.

As far as who has the moral high ground and is the more evil side - a group that are expansionist in their aspirations at the expense of anything in the way including natives in the way of that expansion seem more evil than the group of natives who's aspiration is one of localised resistant defence. The difference is the native inhabitant views it as a territorial defensive dispute of their home land and the other a conquest legitimised by religious sentiment that claims it as their homeland 2'000 years ago.

A groups rights and moral high ground stops the minute they start infringing upon another existing groups - which is what the case is here. I am not approving Hamas's tactics, just analysing the place from which it comes - understanding doesn't mean endorsement. 

People who were once deemed terrorists such as Mandela of South Africa or Mat Turner of the slave revolt are today deemed heroes of emancipation. The elites are not morally consistent in applying their definitions, labels and judgements but morally strategic in applying them to their allies and to their interests. Morality and values then are used more as political sticks to undermine adversarial and hostile people and states rather than as a matter of principle.

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

@Nabd Agreed and thanks for also pointing out that the Palestinians among them also abuse their cause. They may withstand the genocide/massacre but the point I think Lina also made is that what events set in motion for them (Hamas) to exist in the first place and which party has more power to affect change - Palestinian people disempowered and beholden to Hamas or a state body such as Israel with one of the most advanced militaries in the world and a superpower behind it.

Most people don't see this as complicated - that the Palestinian treatment over decades is unjust. What is complicated is the solution or how we get to the solution with such vested interests on both sides who benefit from the status quo staying as it is. There exists a whole category of Palestinian leadership who profit from the suffering of the Palestinian cause as do Western interests in having a excuse in the Middle East as Biden once said (if there were no Israel we need to create one) to pursue geopolitical goals in a resource rich region.

Who caused that cause (Palestinians) to exist in the first place that could be exploited on both ends - a cause that most with a moral conscience support though it doesn't mean we support those who hijack that cause for personal gain such as Hamas.

Legally and morally I think the Palestinians are more in the right - they are the more aggrieved party in this situation. So I will side with their cause, but that doesn't mean I will always side in how they go about achieving their cause. Just as I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not the way in which they exist currently at the expense of the natives of that land or how they go about defending themselves killing innocents.

The Palestinians emancipation is also the Israeli's emancipation - Israel will free itself from the stained negative reputation it has worldwide that it needs to waste resources on propaganda for in order to rid itself of.

People on this forum are a minority and a lot of the world are unconscious and ignorant and easily associate people with their governments - Israeli's won't need to tackle indirect hostility or cold shoulders from people in the world due to this.

That could all end with the Palestinians being given their rights and dignity. The burden of being a constant warden of a captive population and fearing for resistant retaliation which keep them in a constant state of fear and that cunning leaders like Bibi exploit for political power can end so they can put their energy to more noble pursuits.

[bariumly]

speaking of morals, here's what COWARDS do ! They don't fight with honor , they have evil inside themselves no matter how they pretend to show otherwise

 

[Nivsch]

@zazen You are creating toxic and dangerous symmetry betweem both sides which has nothing to do with the truth.

I can admit many problems Israel has and need to take responisibility to, but I can't agree to participate in a symmetry game.

A serious discussion cannot be done by a cherry picking stratrgy of extremist claims creating a fake map of symmetry between an uttely cruel side who honor death in its essense ("Shuhada"/"Shaid") and way of life and education, and a side who honor life.

And if you think its a childish cliche, ask the Gazans activists who appeal to hamas and they will proudly say to you the exact same thing. This is real even if hard to believe.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, bariumly said:

speaking of morals, here's what COWARDS do ! They don't fight with honor , they have evil inside themselves no matter how they pretend to show otherwise

 

Lol they burn the candies supply which was given by Gaza citizens to the Hamas terrorists on October 7 attack.

Gaza citizens celebrated the massacre of Israeli people with those candies. The IDF soldiers burn those candies as a symbol of fighting against the terror. 

The amount of misinformation and the distortion of the truth on social media is fascinating.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Lol they burn the candies supply which was given by Gaza citizens to the Hamas terrorists on October 7 attack.

Gaza citizens celebrated the massacre of Israeli people with those candies. The IDF soldiers burn those candies as a symbol of fighting against the terror. 

The amount of misinformation and the distortion of the truth on social media is fascinating.

 

Oh I didn't realize its actually candies for terror attack celebrations! 🍡🍬🧨🚀🔥

What an immoral soldiers 😒😄

No this is so bad I must balanced it out with some good news....

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

Oh I didn't realize its actually candies for terror attack celebrations! 🍡🍬🧨🚀🔥

What an immoral soldiers 😒😄

No this is so bad I must balanced it out with some good news....

 

It's funny that when IDF are symbolically burning candies they are "the most evil in the world" but when Hamas raping women, beheading babies, burning people alive, they are freedom fighters, defending themselves and doing legitimate act of resistance.

This level of hypocrisy... 🙄

Is beyond my understanding.

I hope this elderly woman in the article you shared will not find herself dead by some Hamas terrorist because she "cooperated with Israel". I hope Hamas wouldn't put their hands on her.

They have no heart or mercy.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Lila9

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

There are facts and then there are the moral judgment of those facts. The fact is both sides commit terrorist acts and are devils committing evil.

Evil is not a fact, it is a judgment.

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

5 hours ago, zazen said:

@Nabd Agreed and thanks for also pointing out that the Palestinians among them also abuse their cause. They may withstand the genocide/massacre but the point I think Lina also made is that what events set in motion for them (Hamas) to exist in the first place and which party has more power to affect change - Palestinian people disempowered and beholden to Hamas or a state body such as Israel with one of the most advanced militaries in the world and a superpower behind it.

Most people don't see this as complicated - that the Palestinian treatment over decades is unjust. What is complicated is the solution or how we get to the solution with such vested interests on both sides who benefit from the status quo staying as it is. There exists a whole category of Palestinian leadership who profit from the suffering of the Palestinian cause as do Western interests in having a excuse in the Middle East as Biden once said (if there were no Israel we need to create one) to pursue geopolitical goals in a resource rich region.

Who caused that cause (Palestinians) to exist in the first place that could be exploited on both ends - a cause that most with a moral conscience support though it doesn't mean we support those who hijack that cause for personal gain such as Hamas.

Legally and morally I think the Palestinians are more in the right - they are the more aggrieved party in this situation. So I will side with their cause, but that doesn't mean I will always side in how they go about achieving their cause. Just as I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not the way in which they exist currently at the expense of the natives of that land or how they go about defending themselves killing innocents.

The Palestinians emancipation is also the Israeli's emancipation - Israel will free itself from the stained negative reputation it has worldwide that it needs to waste resources on propaganda for in order to rid itself of.

People on this forum are a minority and a lot of the world are unconscious and ignorant and easily associate people with their governments - Israeli's won't need to tackle indirect hostility or cold shoulders from people in the world due to this.

That could all end with the Palestinians being given their rights and dignity. The burden of being a constant warden of a captive population and fearing for resistant retaliation which keep them in a constant state of fear and that cunning leaders like Bibi exploit for political power can end so they can put their energy to more noble pursuits.

   True, in the short term it's fucked up what Israel and Palestinians are doing to each other, HAMAs versus the IDF and Zionists, involving their citizens into unnecessary conflicts. Until HAMAs stops existing, and until Zionists stop existing we will have this long term culture warfare between the occupying Israelis and the defending Palestinians, there will be no long term peace if Israel keeps grabbing their lands and secretly genocide Palestinians, and there can be no peace if Palestinians can't self govern and gain enough military to not be taken over by another HAMAs. 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

It's funny that when IDF are symbolically burning candies they are "the most evil in the world" but when Hamas raping women, beheading babies, burning people alive, they are freedom fighters, defending themselves and doing legitimate act of resistance.

This level of hypocrisy... 🙄

Is beyond my understanding.

I hope this elderly woman in the article you shared will not find herself dead by some Hamas terrorist because she "cooperated with Israel". I hope Hamas wouldn't put their hands on her.

They have no heart or mercy.

 

 

I think the women won't be punished because of the fairly naive situation.

But yes this is a problem Gazans face and they are so scared to tell authentic feeling against hamas especially in public, but there are such voices in the last days starting to appear.

@Lila9 From where are you?

Happy 4th candle🕯

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

 

[Lila9]

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think the women won't be punished because of the fairly naive situation.

But yes this is a problem Gazans face and they are so scared to tell authentic feeling against hamas especially in public, but there are such voices in the last days starting to appear.

There was a common post on social media with a photo of an Israeli soldier talking to an elderly Palestinian man and another photo of his dead body claiming according to Hamas that the Israeli solider shoot him right after the photo was taken (even though the shirt on his dead body was different from the shirt shown on the photo with the solider).

This man was killed by Hamas a day or two after the photo with the solider was taken. He was killed because of his innocent convo with the Israeli solider (which probably asked him how he is etc) was interpreted by Hamas as "cooperation with Israel". It seems pretty dangerous to either say something wrong about Hamas and looking friendly with Israeli soliders. 

33 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Happy 4th candle🕯

🌞🙌

11 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

 

I believe the majority of Israel dislike Netanyahu.

It's not unique to the radical leftists in the video who are adding their leftist agenda.

They believe they are awake but some would argue they are deep in their sleep.

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There was a common post on social media with a photo of an Israeli soldier talking to an elderly Palestinian man and another photo of his dead body claiming according to Hamas that the Israeli solider shoot him right after the photo was taken (even though the shirt on his dead body was different from the shirt shown on the photo with the solider).

This man was killed by Hamas a day or two after the photo with the solider was taken. He was killed because of his innocent convo with the Israeli solider (which probably asked him how he is etc) was interpreted by Hamas as "cooperation with Israel". It seems pretty dangerous to either say something wrong about Hamas and looking friendly with Israeli soliders. 

Omg

They lie as often as they breath.

Their propaganda is anything but innocent.

But Israel is too far behind in its ability to fill the gap and exposing those lies. This is frustrating.

I edited the message before you saw it 😶‍🌫️ I asked from where are you?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Omg

They lie as often as they breath.

Their propaganda is anything but innocent.

But Israel is too far behind in its ability to fill the gap and exposing those lies. This is frustrating.

I edited the message before you saw it 😶‍🌫️ I asked from where are you?

Usually I don't feel comfortable to say where I am from because I'm a private person in general and I try to keep this is vague as possible.

But since you are asking me directly and I can't lie to you, I'm actually an Israeli, live in Israel, I served in the Israeli army a few years ago and I still can vividly remember the 2006 Lebanon war when I was a child and Hezbollah bombed us.

This is why I so passionate about the subject, because I speak from my perspective as an Israeli, same as you are. 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Usually I don't feel comfortable to say where I am from because I'm a private person in general and I try to keep this is vague as possible.

I can really understand. All good.

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

But since you are asking me directly and I can't lie to you, I'm actually an Israeli, live in Israel, I served in the Israeli army a few years ago and I still can vividly remember the 2006 Lebanon war when I was a child and Hezbollah bombed us.

This is why I so passionate about the subject, because I speak from my perspective as an Israeli, same as you are. 

From the name I guess you are an Israeli arab?

And nice to hear.

I am also Israeli from birth. This is so amazing to see how much differently Israel society is grasped abroad than the reality I live in here. not gonna lie too this is not easy.

[eos_nyxia]

I’ve been observing this thread for a while.

For these conversations, it would be convenient if there was a sidebar or some indicator of people’s backgrounds which makes their skin in the game obvious. For example:

1. Are your spouse, children, and friends Israeli or Palestinian? Are you Israeli or Palestinian, or more aligned with one side or the other due to shared cultural or religious reasons?
2. Did you have formative experiences with either group which intrinsically predisposes you toward taking one side or the other?
3. What sort of educational system and values were you exposed to as a minor, or even in higher education?
4. Where did your set of geopolitical biases come from, and as a result of what formative factors?
5. Who are you most loyal to, basically, and who and what will you bend for? (As one way or another, people tend to wrap their logic around their feels first in order to dress up their convictions, and not the other way around. “Logic” or “facts” is not much of a frame or skeleton for anything.)

It would save other people some time and energy figuring out if people are dropping “facts” while also actually being able to have a good-faith conversation, if it is somehow not already obvious from the way people speak. (Mostly it is obvious, IMO.)

It would also make it easier for people to have meta-conversations about what all of this means.

[Karmadhi]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You can find interview with Hamas spokesperson who says they will keep repeating more terrorist attacks until they elimimate Israel. This is their official position

And how exactly is carpet bombing civilians where more than 90% killed are civilians , creating a humanitarian disaster and collective punishment a solution to the problem you said?

Nobody says Israel should not take out Hamas, most of the world including many Arab countries do not support them.

The issue is that they are going around it in the worst possible way to the point where it is just an excuse to beat Palestinians into submission so they never dare to rise again. Such war tactics, although used in the past are quite barbaric by modern morality and should not be endorsed. 

Israel could have easily tried to do precise strikes but it did not even bother.

Since you used a Hamas chart, Israel IDF said "We are aiming for destruction not accuracy".

There are videos of Israeli officials saying "turn Gaza into Dresden" or "nuke gaza". How exactly are these statements any more evolved than Hamas charter?

Many elements in Israeli government are stage blue fanatics.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Lila9]

43 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

From the name I guess you are an Israeli arab?

And nice to hear.

I am also Israeli from birth. This is so amazing to see how much differently Israel society is grasped abroad than the reality I live in here. not gonna lie too this is not easy.

Thank you 😍

I agree, it's difficult to see so many bs spread around about Israel from people who have never spend a day in their lives here and don't know where Israel is on the map.

I'm Jewish (from a Russian and Asian origin, my parents immigrated from the Soviet Union because they faced antisemitism and life threats) but there are many Arabs where I live as I live in an area of Jews, Christians and Muslims. They are my neighbors, friends, colleagues. 

I have a female Christian Arab friend who is married to a Jewish man. I have a Jewish female friend who is married to a Christian Arab man. They celebrate both Christian and Jewish holidays.

I have religious and non religious female Muslim friends who I've learned a lot from and I know a bit Arabic thanks to them. I taught them some Russian, they love the Russian language.

I have the sweetest Muslim religious friend, Muna, (who I can talk about forever) which wanted her husband to take her, me and her daughter to Jenin (In the West Bank as you know) to do shopping because everything is much cheaper there than in Israel. But her husband was concerned about my safety there and he honestly said that maybe it's not a good idea for me to be there as it puts me at risk because I'm Jewish. 

I can keep and tell about my life in Israel, about the colorfulness, the warmth of people here, the diversity in cultures and sub cultures, the love of animals, the humor, and my experience from everyone and every city here, I can talk about the things people don't hear in the mainstream media all the pros and cons, but it's going to be soooo long. So I would stop here.

This is my very reality, that's why I find it laughble when people say Israel is an Apartheid.

To say that everything is perfect? Not, there are Arabs who identify themselves as Palestinians or both as Israeli and Palestinians, it varies and it's fine. There are also a few problems in the Arab community, especially the Muslim, lots of crimes and curropted leadership which is a known problem in Israel, as you know.

Most of the Arabs I know take the Israeli side and feel angry and sad when there are news about some terror attacks done by Hamas.

Because Hamas doesn't discriminate between Israeli Arabs and Jews, Hamas have killed and kidnapped Israeli Arabs as well, that's why some of the Israeli Arabs serve in the army, because they understand that we are all in the same danger.

I personally know a few people who were killed by terror attacks, one of them was a boy from my class who was stabbed to death in a bus, during his sleep by a young Palestinian from the WB, this was a bus that I used very often at that time.

 

 

[Karmadhi]

@Lila9 @Nivsch

Can you please see these two clips and give me an Israeli pov

I found them extremely disturbing. The second one is from an ex IDF general.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0dy5xANB3f/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

 

[Lila9]

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Lila9 @Nivsch

Can you please see these two clips and give me an Israeli pov

I found them extremely disturbing. The second one is from an ex IDF general.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0dy5xANB3f/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

 

First clip- It can be that the entire building contains terrorists/weapons, there is no contradiction. The Free Palestine statement at the end is awkward given it's calling for ethnical cleansing.

Second clip- Just another Jewish American who is anti Israel. 

And being a son of some Israeli general somewhere in the 6-days war isn't enough experience to claim what he claims. 

If you want a better perspective on both Hamas and IDF you should read the book "Son of Hamas" or watch the interview in my signature, this man worked both for Hamas and IDF, he has more experience and better perspective on the conflict.