New War In Israel / Gaza

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

Hamas had a state, and for 17 years there was relative peace. As for the October 7 attack, the principal motivation was probably the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Remember that Hamas was opposed to isis, and they fought isis sympathisers in the Gaza Strip.

[Nivsch]

@How to be wise Those 18 years has been used to build a terror empire in gaza. That is their life meaning. This is much deeper than just things that Israel does or doesn't.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 23/11/2023 at 3:44 PM, zazen said:

@BlueOak Well articulated.

@lina Nicely written. Sam Harris is correct in saying Islamism is a virus, but he wrongly conflates a lot with it and misunderstands the Muslim world which is funny as he's written a book on extremism with Majid Nawaz who was a ex-Islamist radical.

The difference between Palestine/Hamas and ISIS is that Hamas are a resistance movement that use terrorist tactics, with the goal being localised to their homeland. ISIS is a terrorist movement with the goal of Islamic globalism - all lands. Hamas are defending their homeland, ISIS aspire to dominate all lands. The former is a defensive movement at its core but with terrorist elements and tactics, the latter is a dominating expansionist movement with a radical interpretation of Islam at its core and terrorism as its main strategy rather than just a tool in the toolbox of tactics.

Every idea can become a ideology which can ferment extremist strains of itself. Islamist's are violent because human nature can be violent. That can take expression through any culture, context or on any continent. Nature doesn't change, the lens through which it unfolds does - the lens, vessel and human through which nature is nurtured.

Its easy to assume that once someone progresses through the stages of Spiral Dynamics, similar to a child maturing into an adult, they are immune to reverting to childlike behaviors or regressing physically like Benjamin Button. However, psychologically, such regression is still possible. People can be like children frozen in adult bodies, and behave animalistically whilst encased in human form. Humans are like Russian dolls that have a beast deep down within that can be visited.They can do the needful when needed to in order to survive.

The developed world otherizes groups they see as undeveloped yet don't see how they are capable of behaving in extreme ways they consider only undeveloped people capable of behaving in. They omit the regressive elements of human nature that revisit them and come in through the back door in unassuming ways. A lot of the time they’re not as moral or developed as they think, they're just in a position where they're safe enough to pretend to be.

Developed liberals can still have the capacity to terrorize and tribalize, they just terrorize and tribalize in the name of, for and around a different set of values. We can have stage green talking points and positions yet act those out through a stage red disposition and state of being. Likewise the US can have a white house and yet a black heart - the veneer doesn't always match the visceral.

Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us.  Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion act like psychic straitjackets. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn.

Now we are in a chicken or the egg situation where extreme terrorist elements exist. But is it that they are extreme innately or that circumstances made them so. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

If Hamas are eradicated another group or faction will fill the power vacuum for resistance. You get rid of resistance by giving them nothing to resist in the first place ie occupation.

 

[Raze]

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

[zazen]

18 minutes ago, Raze said:

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

Good article. It mentioned Vietnam which reminded me of this clip - if Hamas have built anything like these tunnels I’m not sure.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

46 minutes ago, Raze said:

@Leo Gurathoughts on this?

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-war/

I'm not motivated to read that. I have enough information and analysis about this war.

Yes, obviously this war will create more terrorists than ever.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

The War on Terror Part II: The Terror Evolves

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

If Hamas are eradicated another group or faction will fill the power vacuum for resistance. You get rid of resistance by giving them nothing to resist in the first place ie occupation.

 

   That's true in the long term. Although what we're see so far, it's Likely Israel and HAMAs are locked into eliminating the other, and the people of Palestine or Israel will suffer as long as HAMAs exists or Israel exists in the short term. Until Israel recognizes it's creating this problem for itself it will perpetually make the conditions for another terrorist group.

[How to be wise]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel.

That’s wrong. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders. They have stated that so many times. 

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Not that simple, see this response from Chomsky 

Quote

NOAM CHOMSKY: Very simple. First of all, Hamas charter means practically nothing. The only people who pay attention to it are Israeli propagandists, who love it. It was a charter put together by a small group of people under siege, under attack in 1988. And it’s essentially meaningless. There are charters that mean something, but they’re not talked about. So, for example, the electoral program of Israel’s governing party, Likud, states explicitly that there can never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. And they not only state it in their charter, that’s a call for the destruction of Palestine, explicit call for it. And they don’t only have it in their charter, you know, their electoral program, but they implement it. That’s quite different from the Hamas charter.

 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura but isn't it a little bit too ambitious from them to want to eliminate israel. like it sounds ridiculous that hamas would eliminate israel. it's like andrew tate vs leo gura when it comes to spirituality. 

[Nivsch]

@Raze Instead of cherry pick crazy extremists from the stands all the time like this thread is saturated with, try to just listen to the players themselves. Leaders and even more so citizens. This will help much more.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

You can find interview with Hamas spokesperson who says they will keep repeating more terrorist attacks until they elimimate Israel. This is their official position:

It's not possible to live peacefully alongside such an ideology. Netanyahu is correct when he says so. That is not propaganda.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

@Leo Gura @Raze @How to be wise

Both sides have mutually exclusive claims that are self terminating especially if we look solely to their founding document and charter - including the Likud parties which won't recognise any Palestinian sovereignty from the river to the sea. If Israel are unable to live peacefully alongside such a ideology Palestinians are unable to live peacefully alongside Likud parties and the extremist ideological version of Zionism that has become manifest.

Both sides founding documents were written decades ago and parties evolve so we can only look at more recent times actions. From the Israeli side we see settlement expansion on what could have been the Palestinians state and from Hamas though they softened and revised their charter to not call for the destruction of Israel in 2017 their actions and words in present day show otherwise.

Each reacting to the other. After Hamas revised their charter the following year in 2018 the tried the great march of return which shows they attempted peaceful protest and in which Israel shot at disabled people, press and medics which could clearly be seen. They blow the knee cap of thousands. It wasn't totally peaceful but from which side we will not know - did some Palestinians start becoming unpeaceful and throwing rocks during the march to escalate things or did Israel shoot first and they react as such.

It seems they have no avenue but terrorism when the BDS (economic protest) movement is prevented, peaceful marches (peaceful protest) turn into blood bath and kneecapping sports for the IDF. Then when they see Israel and the Arab world building ties (Abraham accords) which completely leaves them out the picture they feel thrown under the bus further, and the increasing settlement expansion and violence in the West Bank this year - all this culminated in them lashing out and going back to a extreme stance it seems.  The fact of the lack of IDF on the October 7th attack is revealing - they were all mostly in the West Bank - why? Due to settler drama and expansion. 

So its tricky to say who started what and who's reacting to what. It seems Hamas started this battle but the war was started by the extremist brand of Zionism. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

Don't weasel around.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

Don't weasel around.

I followed up by saying their present day actions and position isn't one of peace if you read beyond the first paragraph - just like you responded only to the first paragraph of my other post - but I understand your busy so I've underlined it. 

It would be easier to only look at present day but we need to look at what caused both sides to get to today. They reap what they sow and if they sow the wind they will reap the whirlwind of todays destruction. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas doesn't want to global domination but their stated goal is to elimate Israel. This pretty much forces Israel to eliminate them.

As evil as Israel is, Hamas is more evil. So we've got a battle between two devils here.

Under which criteria are you measuring devilry? Is it actions or intent? Both are guilty of terrorism but one side's damage is 10X more than the other. As for the intent, one was initially motivated by superiority, separateness, exploitation as well as protection, while the other main motivation has always been resistance and refusal to submit. 

One side started this whole circle of violence and the other is a creation of and reaction to that violence. 

Ahmed Yassin, the politician and Imam who founded Hamas said in his own words:

" We don’t hate Jews and fight Jews because they are Jewish. They are a people of faith and we are a people of faith, and we love all people of faith. If my brother, from my own mother and father and my own faith takes my homes and expels me from it, I will fight him. I will fight my cousin if he takes my home and expels me from it. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me from it, I will fight him. I don’t fight other countries because I want to be at peace with them, I love all people and wish peace for them, even the Jews. The Jews lived with us all of our lives and we never assaulted them, and they held high positions in government and ministries. But if they take my home and make me a refugee like 4 million Palestinians in exile? Who has more right to this land? The Russian immigrant who left this land 2000 years ago or the one who left 40 years ago? We don’t hate the Jews, we only ask for them to give us our rights.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#

As for his justification for killing civilians he said it was in retaliation "Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians, so Israeli civilians should be targeted" . 

Of course I don't agree with this because there is zero justification for killing any civilian, but his statement just shows the initial intent for Hamas has always been resistance.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@zazen Why are you making appeals to some ancient charter when I gave you an interview with their current position?

What about Netanyahu though?  he said it himself using words and showed by his actions that he has been actively killing all hopes for a Palestinian state, how is this different from aspiring to destroy Israel?  Actually even in this case, Israel is more evil because it's doing it in action while the other side is just uttering about it with no real power, possibility or action. 

Also saying it's a battle between two devils here is very inaccurate. In reality, it's a battle between IDF and Palestinian civilians in hope for them to reach a final point and make them turn over Hamas.  

Edited December 10, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

@lina True words. In fact former Prime Minister Rabin who wanted peace was assassinated by Bibi's incitement from a far right extremist.

''Rabin was murdered on November 4, 1995, by Yigal Amir, an extremist Jew, who was opposed to the Oslo Accords and the handing over of control of parts of the West Bank to the Palestinians as a part of a landmark peace agreement.

In the weeks before the assassination, Netanyahu, then head of the opposition, and other senior Likud members attended a right-wing political rally in Jerusalem where protesters branded Rabin a “traitor,” “murderer,” and “Nazi” for signing a peace agreement with the Palestinians earlier that year.''

And if we like to just look at present day we have Netanyahu citing a biblical reference to “Amalek” in the context of the “destruction of Hamas” and to “eradicate this evil from the world.”  A highly intentional religious justification for Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Gaza’s Palestinian innocents.

The “annihilate Amalek” theme invokes support from the divine in this modern crusade to exterminate the Amalekites, interpreted today as every Palestinian. Genocidally charged language that Bibi references to get support from American evangelical Christian Zionists. Their propaganda is not only domestic but to the US “market” as one Israeli spokesperson described it - because it is a market that provides financial support and diplomatic shielding to their agenda.

Heres a video of your quote by Yassin:

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

24 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Same could be said about pro Palestine people who don't understand that Hamas was created by Israel or that Hamas first victims are Palestinians and that Gazans generally were opposed to Hamas. Even if today a Gazan is on video saying "fuck Hamas kill them all", pro Palestine person will think its a fake by Israel propaganda. An ally of Iran is not interested in your freedom. Iran already made it clear how they feel about Palestinians when they sieged and slaughtered Palestinians in Yarmouk.

Making moral comparisons has nothing to do with support. The whole point of this conversation is show that what's currently happening in Gaza is completely unjustifiable on all levels no matter how harmful Hamas is, 99% of the destruction inflicted now is largely on civilians, Getting rid of Hamas without getting rid of the Israeli right wing gov means the end of the Palestinian cause as they are getting ethnically cleansed at the moment. It's about placing  pressure on the side that actually has the power to change the situation, which is Israel not Hamas. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by lina