New War In Israel / Gaza

[kenway]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Israel has responsibility to stop expanding the settlements, to declare on this officially from a position of strength after won the war in Gaza, and to initiate an agreement with the palestinians on an independent state for them surrounded by a security belt of 10-20 km depth with IDF forces in it, and see if they will want to negotiate or still be a serial peace refusal.

@Nivsch Presumably this flag is temporary then?

[Nivsch]

@kenway The answer won't matter to you and we both know that

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 07/12/2023 at 1:19 PM, Vrubel said:

@Karmadhi You must learn how stage red operates and then maybe you'll get some appreciation for Israel. You might think Israel is evil but at the end of the day, it's still a reasonable nation-state actor like most countries in the world. Stage red is not a respectable actor, it will see any compassion and goodwill as weakness and exploit it to the fullest. Hamas carried out the attack precisely because it knew it would not get genocided in return and that the UN would happily become its greatest ally in calling Israel to a halt. 

Israel cares first and foremost about its own people and it needs to ensure that civilians can once again live in those border kibbutz villages. Notice how nobody can really care or take responsibility for Israel's security aside from Israel itself. Not the US, UN and certainly not a pro-Palestine entity. 

As a Jew, I know nobody is really going to guarantee the security of Jews other than Israel. The Irony is that before this war I felt more and more alienated from Israel due to Netanhyahu's politics. But I am now fully behind Netanyahu because Israel needs to restore its most basic security and deterrence once again. Supporting Palestinians would have been a no-brainer if they weren't so underdeveloped, dysfunctional (stupid), and supporting terror. To me, they have zero moral high ground. 

If you want a good case study on dealing with stage red. You can learn about the truly fascinating history of how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan. They actually got involved because they thought that the local communist dictator went completely overboard in how cruelly he dealt with dissent but when the Soviets took over they ended up doing the exact same. If you read about the mentality of the Afghans and the insane cruelties committed by both parties, Israel will seem like an angel. 

If Palestinians are stage red - barbaric, unreasonable and stupid like you say then why even try reasoning with them in the first place? Just give them a state and let them be. Their so stupid and dysfunctional their country will never become powerful enough to threaten Israel anyway rite?  If they are stage red, then we can only expect them to fight and resist as that's what stage red does apparently and resistance isn't just a human thing. So why would it be wise to keep occupying , controlling and dealing with such people if we know its completely in their spiral stage of development to fight back? 

Correct, Afghanistan is a great case study on how to deal with red including how America dealt with them - nothing came of it except destruction, further radicalisation, war profits, a stained reputation for war mongering and a embarrassing departure.

In order to deal with barbarians you need to embody some of their values because they are incapable of embodying some of your 'higher' ones. They don't have rationality but have the law of the jungle which is that they respect strength and ruthlessness. And so you become what you despise and what your higher values go against in busying yourself in dealing with them - so why not leave them be rather than complain about them resisting when you pin them down to the floor through occupation, siege and blockade. 

I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. Even a ant resists in order to survive. If animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such an alien reaction or lack of reaction if no resistance occurred.

It is probably in Israel's best interest to not take their cue from how America has dealt with the war on terror through bombardments. A chihuahua can't learn and act like the Pitbull it aspires to be. America has a geography blessed with vast seas on its sides, a ally to its North and a weak nation to its South that insulates it from its foreign adventures. It can go around bombarding regions and barely have any repercussion, in fact Europe bears the brunt of the cost via the refugee crises caused by these Wars.

However Israel acting that way endangers it in a way America acting that way doesn't. Israel sits by itself in a angered region. Israel's actions have enraged the global south and even domestic Westerners (its own allied nations). Even Western media outlets critique Israels actions as they are unable to keep up with propaganda that gets shred by the advent of social media and alternative media. Their are limits to Americas interests - they can't just bankroll the expulsion of 2.3million people and destruction of their homes with the current technology that allows the world to see it and Israel can't afford to lose America and its domestic support either.

Just as you mentioned, it isn't only defence but deterrence - deterrence is supposed to be disproportionate to scare off hostility but only causes further hostility. Not only is the scale of destructive deterrence horrific but the timescale of it. Israel has destroyed over 50% of Gazans homes, I think its now 70% - in just 2 months. Even if they are given a doubtful right to return what are they returning to? Israel could easily claim Hamas are still amongst the Palestinians so they can't return and sayonara them into the Sinai. 

A sure fire way to never get rid of the virus that is Hamas is to keep fanning the flames of the Palestinian cause by expanding settlements in West Bank. Netenyahu funded and empowered Hamas to oppose PLO. As Palestinians are stage red and speak the language of respecting strength, the PLO look spineless to them and unable protect or do anything as basic as even stopping the settlement expansion which leaves no choice for the Palestinians in terms of who to vote for or support except the ones strongest enough to at least resist, even the worst kind of resistance that is the October 7th atrocity. 

But sure, all this is supposed to keep Israel safe. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

28 minutes ago, kenway said:

"When asked about the images, IDF spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari seemed to confirm that the men had been taken prisoner but did not clarify whether those pictured were members of Hamas or civilians."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/08/footage-idf-israel-military-parading-palestinian-men-around-in-underwear

 

 

 

   Yikes, them not clarifying if they're HAMAs or Palestinian civilians is a big question mark.

[Raze]

 

 

 

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, kenway said:

"When asked about the images, IDF spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari seemed to confirm that the men had been taken prisoner but did not clarify whether those pictured were members of Hamas or civilians."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/08/footage-idf-israel-military-parading-palestinian-men-around-in-underwear

 

 

 

Lol these terrorists have butchered innocent men, women elderly and children, they have committed great atricorcy. Fat privileged and wealthy Hamas terrorists.

Not only that, they also steal humanitarian aid from the Palestinians of Gaza and sell it in high prices. All the money and aid comes to Gaza ends in their greedy hands.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0dxnZBIga7/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0jfi3GIuQD/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0kZgZEIaCJ/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0oqhGHI1TX/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Lila9

[kenway]

39 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@kenway The answer won't matter for you and we both know that

Agreed. I've given up trying to rationalise with Zionists. It seems there's an illogical answer for everything.

 

31 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@kenway

   Yikes, them not clarifying if they're HAMAs or Palestinian civilians is a big question mark.

Some have already been identified as civilians, including at least one journalist.

At this point, one has to wonder if there's any point to the United Nations at all...

[DieFree]

Israel is such an evil society 

[Nivsch]

44 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Not only that, they also steal humanitarian aid from the Palestinians of Gaza and sell it in high prices. All the money and aid comes to Gaza ends in their greedy hands.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0dxnZBIga7/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0jfi3GIuQD/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0kZgZEIaCJ/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0oqhGHI1TX/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

 

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[DieFree]

@Nivsch

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

You were boasting about supporting Netanyahu but as you may be aware Netanyahu until October 7th did not want to get rid of Hamas. In fact, he told the Israel cabinet to not oppose financial transfers to Hamas. He also supported Hamas against moderate Palestinian factions. The goal was to strengthen Hamas and their power in Gaza, dividing the Palestinians along factional lines from the WB and having a nice boogeyman to trot out and point to claim "Israel doesn't have a partner for peace" all the while Israel expanded its illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem which by international law is Palestinian land. So before you wag your sanctimonious figure at others, you might want to reflect on Israel's behavior and its contributions to the present crisis. 

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

 

 

 

Scary. These atrocities are not forgivable no matter what the context is. A little less blood would be a lot more nice. 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal. In case you missed it this is why previous ones are usually rejected:  (Also my post at the top of this page on dealing with stage red)

4 hours ago, zazen said:

I found your response to the video. Lets look at why they refused the proposals by looking at the most generous offer in 2000 being the Camp David one from Ehud Barack. 

1. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time.

In return for this annexation, Palestinians would be offered 1% of desert land near the Gaza Strip. Thus, Palestinians would need to give up 10% of the most fertile land in the West Bank, in exchange for 1% of desert land. Not to mention that if the past record is any indicator, the additional 8-12% under “temporary” Israeli control would remain so forever.

2. Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land.

3. Israel would be allowed to invade at any point in cases of “emergency”. As you can imagine, what constituted an emergency was left incredibly vague and up to interpretation. The Palestinian state would be demilitarized, and the Palestinian government would not be able to enter into alliances without Israeli permission. 

4. Regarding Jerusalem,  Israel refused any form of Palestinian sovereignty over the majority of the city, including many Palestinian neighbourhoods.

5. Regarding right of return, it offered a very limited return for a very limited number of refugees over a very long period of time.

None of these are ingredients for the creation of an actual sovereign state which meet the basic definitions of a sovereign state and the minimum international standards of one . The nerve, arrogance and entitlement to displace inhabitants from their land then negotiate with them about their land and offer such proposals is a insult to their dignity and intelligence.

Ultimately, this “generous offer” amounted to turning the West Bank into non-unified districts, crisscrossed by a network of settlements, roads and Israeli areas. Even the supposed “capital” of the Palestinian state would mostly be under Israeli control, with stipulations and conditions that stripped any real sovereignty from any area of the supposed Palestinian “state”.

Not even the sky above Palestinian heads would be under their control, nor the water under their feet, as Israel still demanded access to water resources under the West Bank. Palestinian aspirations cannot be allowed to exceed the ceiling of Israeli's deluded entitlements. Israel is not really conceding anything through these offers; ending its occupation and stopping its settlement activities is merely following international law. It is not a sacrifice - it should be the default position.

This is how all of the “generous” Israeli peace offers play out. The majority of people who hear about this on the news have no clue what the parameters of the offer are. All they hear is that the Palestinians have rejected yet another “peace” initiative by Israel which gets spun as them being stupid bloodthirsty savages. This is why the discourse always focuses on the number of offers, because it distracts from their content and unviability.

Shout out to @Raze for sharing relevant media from X and @Danioover9000 @lina and @kenway for good, balanced and articulate posts I've come across since spending time on this forum.

Edited December 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal. 

Utterly naive black & white thinking.

And twisted.

Reality proved to be many times just the opposite.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Lol these terrorists have butchered innocent men, women elderly and children, they have committed great atricorcy. Fat privileged and wealthy Hamas terrorists.

Not only that, they also steal humanitarian aid from the Palestinians of Gaza and sell it in high prices. All the money and aid comes to Gaza ends in their greedy hands.

People here cannot even agree when I call hamas a "virus". They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

So you expect them to admit a truth in a five sentences length explanation? A waste of time.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

@Nivsch Please could you translate what this IDF solider is saying? I'm genuinely interested in his perspective. (For balance etc).

 

[zazen]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

People here even cannot agree to call hamas a "virus".

Unlike bacteria, viruses are not considered living organisms because they cannot carry out essential life processes on their own. Instead, they rely on the host cells to replicate and reproduce. The host that empowered it and causes it to exist is your habibi Bibi Netenyahu and the conditions of the Palestinians.

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

You mock forum user's who I think are balanced and not ill intentioned but then say things like this. The first step in resolving a issue is to not dehumanise the other but understand the cause and chain of events that lead them to their actions. The overton window has shifted so far right in Israeli society that neutral or centrist takes are considered unbalanced it seems.

''So you expect them to admit a five sentences explanatiom length? ''

I replied to you with much more than 5 sentences - in fact I responded with 5 points on why the 'best' peace proposal of Camp David wasn't good enough in meeting such basic criteria of a state to which you haven't even responded. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend hamas terrorists even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

I am not saying you did that and maybe I had to respond directly to the one who did it and anyway there is nothing personal here.

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend those people even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

Don't invent things I did which I didn't 🙂

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

You lost all respect on this forum with your virus comment. All you do is run around in circles and haven’t got a clue. You are no better than nazi Germans, who I’m sure referred to Jewish and Gypsy people as viruses. 
 

as for @Lila9 your posts are so whiney and flat now it’s impossible to reply to them. 
 

 

[Nivsch]

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Utterly naive black & white thinking.

And twisted.

Reality proved to be many times just the opposite.

   What is twisted about @zazen's post? here:

'The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal.'.