New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would really like to see this discussion elevate to Tier 2 rather than cycling over and over again on Tier 1 finger pointing.

Try to notice that finger-pointing is not achieving anything.

I would absolutely love that. But only a few people here are reasonable and have interesting perspectives. Most just want to play games. 

@zazen We can talk when you rein in your projections and demonization.

@LSD-Rumi I don't always agree with you but you seem like the kind of person with whom a tier 2 discussion is possible.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@Lila9 I am talking about the English version of Al Jazzera. The Arabic version is pretty biased. You can check many ranking websites for its credibility and they all say it is very credible. 

AJ English is the same like AJ Arabic but in English. Same bias. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

46 minutes ago, zazen said:

You can’t even accept the occupier/occupied dynamic between Israel and Palestine.

Saying Gaza isn’t occupied because Israel withdrew is like saying a prisoner is free because the warden isn’t technically inside his jail cell.

How can anyone move on to discuss solutions if the facts of reality can’t be agreed.

Is the UK government and US state department who are both Israel’s allies good enough sources to confirm firstly that Palestinians are occupied?

https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/
 

https://www.gov.uk/world/the-occupied-palestinian-territories/news
 

Isreal apologists will claim any critique coming from a non jew as anti Semitic and claim Jews like Norman Finkelstein, Gabor Mate or Gideon Levy are traitors and self hating Jews if they give any critique.

Gaza isn't occupied by Israel; it's a fact. You can think what you want, but it doesn't change this fact.

You are cherry-picking Jews you personally agree with to confirm your bias, which may be antisemitic. Just because a few Jews agree with what you think doesn't mean that you are correct.

Only because a few women out of many, agree with certain misogynistic beliefs, doesn't mean that the men who hold these beliefs are not misogynists.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lila9

[LSD-Rumi]

@Lila9@ Al Jazzera English Is described as slightly left leaning. It worked hard to be unbiased and credible so that it can establishe itself in The West and gain the trust of Westerners. So it is actually very different from Al Jazzera Arabic. Even Aljazeera Arabic is relatively way less biased than many of the news channels here in The Middle East. 

 

[StarStruck]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Ranked as the one of most unbiased news outlets by whom? Hamas? lol

It's known for its anti-Israel, anti-American and antisemitic bias. AJ is directly used as a propaganda tool by Hamas to spread their narrative, this is probably the most biased news outlet there.

Wikipedia:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism&ved=2ahUKEwjqlI_16uiCAxVxdqQEHexuCMQQFnoECAcQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2VumaASl1m-n0TVtDhw90r

Are you a Jew?

[Nivsch]

55 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Gaza isn't occupied by Israel; it's a fact. You can think what you want, but it doesn't change this fact.

You are cherry-picking Jews you personally agree with to confirm your bias, which may be antisemitic. Just because a few Jews agree with what you think doesn't mean that you are correct.

Only because a few women out of many, agree with certain misogynistic beliefs, doesn't mean that the men who hold these beliefs are not misogynists.

Israel exists?

Thats enough. 

Israel is, for them, the occupier of the arab world.

That is the root of the argument.

Everthing else - excuses and backward rationalisations.

I gave up trying to argue with them with logical tools.

The prefrontal cortex cannot solve the ancient brain's problems. For that they will have to give up their ego and recognize the validity of Israel's passions and fears too, and above all to recognize the root of the problem of the palestinians - their own self tyranni.

To face their problem head on and not to project it onto Israel all the time.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

Is the forum biased for jews?

Most of my friends who are pro Palestine and they are also right wing at other times.

This forum which was supposed to be left wing/green is pro israel.

I think this is the only issue where people are not flocking on terms of their typical ideology.

People of both sides support both Israel and Palestine. 

Very interesting.

----

In other news, Ethopia is all set to invade Eritrea and China is preparing to invade Taiwan.

 

[Lila9]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel exists?

Thats enough. 

Israel is the occupier of the arab world.

Thats is the root of the argument.

Everthing else - excuses and backward rationalisations.

I gave up trying to argue with them with logical tools.

The prefrontal cortex cannot solve the ancient brain's problems. For that they will have to give up their ego and recognize the validity of Israel's passions and fears too, and above all to recognize the root of the problem of the palestinians - their own self tyranni.

To face their problem head on and not to project it onto Israel all the time.

Totally agree.

 

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Is the forum biased for jews?

Most of my friends who are pro Palestine and they are also right wing at other times.

This forum which was supposed to be left wing/green is pro israel.

I think this is the only issue where people are not flocking on terms of their typical ideology.

People of both sides support both Israel and Palestine. 

Very interesting.

----

In other news, Ethopia is all set to invade Eritrea and China is preparing to invade Taiwan.

 

I‘m just against any form of extremism and also especially islamism

[Vrubel]

@LSD-Rumi AJ is blatant propaganda with a thin veneer of Western liberalism and high-quality production value due to Qatari money. You're not going to see an analyst on AJ taking Israel's POV seriously, they much rather whitewash Hamas and be their mouthpiece. On 7/10 they were gleefully excited and in total denial of the shameful things that really happened.

I think Al Arabia is already much less biased because they don't have the same embedded maliciousness as AJ even though it's also Arab.

Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post, and Haaretz are pretty decent if you want to learn the Israeli perspective. 

I mostly follow Times of Israel, and JPost mainly because my bias is to be concerned for the hostages and soldiers. But I also keep an eye out on all kinds of media platforms, I even respectfully listen to left-leaning intellectuals critical of Israel to get a broader perspective and different insights.  

Edited November 29, 2023 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

11 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Is the forum biased for jews?

Most of my friends who are pro Palestine and they are also right wing at other times.

This forum which was supposed to be left wing/green is pro israel.

I think this is the only issue where people are not flocking on terms of their typical ideology.

People of both sides support both Israel and Palestine. 

Very interesting.

----

In other news, Ethopia is all set to invade Eritrea and China is preparing to invade Taiwan.

 

This conflict is challenging and questioning core beliefs and values people have from both sides.

I consider myself liberal but in this conflict I don't agree with liberals. This conflict made me see more clearly  flaws in the liberal thinking and hypocracy which I used to be part of. So now I'm type of hybrid or a sane liberal I guess. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lila9

[LSD-Rumi]

@Vrubel I meant they don't deliberately falsify/hide facts or use loaded language which are the most important aspects of a credible new channel. They are free to provide their perspective and analysis which can be biased and I don't deny that. A news channel that Provide a wholistic perspective requires stage yellow developmental level which is not existant.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Gaza isn't occupied by Israel; it's a fact. You can think what you want, but it doesn't change this fact.

You are cherry-picking Jews you personally agree with to confirm your bias, which may be antisemitic. Just because a few Jews agree with what you think doesn't mean that you are correct.

Only because a few women out of many, agree with certain misogynistic beliefs, doesn't mean that the men who hold these beliefs are not misogynists.

So majority of the world including relevant institutions and governments who are actual allies with Israel must all be insane then.

The only reason to present Jews who actually speak on Israel is because if a non Jewish opinion or critique is given its labelled anti-semitic. These are people who have every reason possible to be one sided due to their lineage directly being executed by the Holocaust - if they speak on the situation it deserves a listen with a open mind. Many Jews have spoken against the situation and call it for what it is.

Everyone needs to put truth above their egos to the best of their ability and in order to discuss solutions agree upon some basic facts and the definition of words. Otherwise, we expand and shrink the definition of words according to our biases to fit in or take out what we want or don't want to associate them with.

For example, I've said in another thread that there is debate around whether it is a genocide according to the international definition and by looking at Israel's actions and talking points to confirm or infer their intent. Say it isn't a genocide, don't Israel's actions and talking points at least point to ethnic cleansing? The definition of which is  'the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.'

That is bad enough to need to be called for what it is. If we fail to even see that then it can be called the next worst thing which is a massacre. Looking at the actions of settlers in the West Bank and how their using the massacre of October 7th to wipe out Gaza shows this. The Gazans have moved south and now after the ceasefire Israels plan seems to be to start targeting the south after making the north unlivable with nothing to return to. Where are they supposed to move to or escape to then? The sinai desert or force Europe to take them in so Israel can have its holy land.

I can only assume these Gazans will not be given the right to return as Palestinian refugees aren't even given the right to return to land they or their parents lived in a generation ago but some New Yorker who has a loose connection to Israel or claims from a 2000 year ago history is given the right of return.

Can we really say this is targeting Hamas:

And beside the many other statements by Israelis in positions of power that show ill intent, here’s just one of the latest by which we can infer the intent to displace / ethnically cleanse Gaza:

It's probably in Israel's best interest to not keep giving Palestinians a situation in which radicalisation is so easy to occur by the countless deaths of their loved ones and control of their freedom of movement and then to have to tackle the stain on their reputation world wide through pouring millions into a propaganda machine to tackle the anti-Semitism that comes from it. Even the Western media outlets who have generally taken the side of Israel aren't able to keep on being impartial as social media dismantles and shreds the propaganda in real time.
 

Edited November 29, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

42 minutes ago, zazen said:

I can only assume these Gazans will not be given the right to return as Palestinian refugees aren't even given the right to return to land they or their parents lived in a generation ago but some New Yorker who has a loose connection to Israel or claims from a 2000 year ago history is given the right of return.

Netanyahu acts as if he is only defending Israel but then reveals his intentions AND actions to keep occupying more land :'D .. all that and there are still some people who reject the "occupation" label. 

[Vrubel]

38 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@Vrubel I meant they don't deliberately falsify/hide facts or use loaded language which are the most important aspects of a credible new channel. They are free to provide their perspective and analysis which can be biased and I don't deny that. A news channel that Provide a wholistic perspective requires stage yellow developmental level which is not existant.

I get your point but also they certainly do all of the above. False equivalencies and hyperbolic language is the hallmark. It's different from "regular biased" media like Al Arabia for example which is seemingly more level-headed. AJ is definitely more "out there"  with an activist positioning. Stoking up the flames seems to be a goal of theirs. You either get turned off by the blatant bias and tone or you might get hooked on it if it fits your bias. 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Netanyahu acts as if he is only defending Israel but then reveals his intentions AND actions to keep occupying more land :'D .. all that and there are still some people who reject the "occupation" label. 

The guy is probably worse than Putin. Not calling him out on his bs is really sad.

At least Putin has to be ruthless considering he governs a very corrupt country like Russia.

Meanwhile this clown actively degrated his country, attacking rule of law and democracy making Israel weaker in many ways.

Not to mention his extremely nationalistic and racist positions pushing for Greater Israel.

Removing this clown from office is the first step towards peace.

[LSD-Rumi]

Fun fact: the Israeli president who made a peace pact with the palestinians in 1993 was assassinated days after. Israel is plagued with right wing extremesits.

Edited November 29, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[zazen]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Netanyahu acts as if he is only defending Israel but then reveals his intentions AND actions to keep occupying more land :'D .. all that and there are still some people who reject the "occupation" label.

Certain words like occupation incite a allergic reaction due to the fact that once acknowledged, any discussion forward inadvertently favours the one being occupied in his legal rights and moral legitimacy to defence, even armed defence.

The intention not to have  two state is made clear as stated in the Likud parties founding documents and as showed when Bibi addressed the united nations general assembly just this year in September.

''The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.''

Source - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

 

[LSD-Rumi]

@zazen anyone who says that the land belong to the jews is retarded. This whole discussion actually is retarded.

[LSD-Rumi]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

don't always agree with you but you seem like the kind of person with whom a tier 2 discussion is possible.

I said a lot of stupid shit during my presence here but I am regaining my wisdom as I am getting rid of my depression. Depression makes me feel retarded.