New War In Israel / Gaza

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

@Nivsch

Will you ever recover from this?

[Nivsch]

@kenway Yes. Those children will recover from the cult of hamas that brainwashes them to honor death and to not respect life at all, neither their own life nor other people's lives.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@kenway Yes. Those children will recover from the cult of hamas that brainwashes them to honor death and to not respect life at all, neither their own life nor other people's lives.

No.

The vast majority will grow up hating israel. A percentage will radicalize, and you will have a couple of hundred thousand more people looking to do you harm, a few hundred thousand if we include the surrounding countries. It won't matter if its this name or another name they take as their identity.

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak The hate won't go away so fast, but a new and better authority and education system can change a lot.

The question is who can do that? The PLO is still not a good option. Creativity is required here, but Netanyahu cannot be trusted on this.

Yes some will radicalize, but some won't, and some maybe the opposite because they know who is the real cause. 

To say that this is for sure only make them more radical is to give them too little credit, and in other words to say they are just puppets on strings that just react to what Israel does and cannot think independently on the situation, especially after their cult leaders are lost control on them and their doctrine turned out to be a failure.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I don't buy in the whole narrative of "ceasefire now". I get it, you want the killing to end and to do the seemingly compassionate thing. But this is not a matter of wanting but a matter of needing. This war needs to be fought to take away the Hamas threat. 

Maintaining the current status quo will be more dangerous and deadly for both Israelis and Palestinians. Stage green values and morality cannot offer a solution here. The Middle East has it own sets of rules.

You might say its cruel and militaristic of me. But these are also aspects of live that need to be integrated. Israel didn't start this war. If Israel had a button to only eliminate Hamas and leave everybody else be they would do press that button. But this is not how this world works. The nature of this war will produce a lot of civilian casualties. This is not the Napoleonic era where armies fight in an open field and the parties involved gracefully respect each other in a gentleman manner. 

I can understand that it can take a dispassionate look at reality to come up with the most compassionate actions that don’t always seem compassionate on the surface. Most sane people either side agree to want peace and prosperity - I think they differ on the best method to getting there (war vs ceasefire for example) and how it will manifest (a Palestinian state militarised vs de-militarised or Palestinian areas occupied by some Israeli presence / security apparatus).

 
Part of integrating is elevating. Maybe in the case of war this means not losing the dynamic of war but elevating the nature of it to a non physical domain. Instead of physical war which spills blood we elevate it to a war of idea’s spilt onto the table of discussion - though I do realise for that to take place there first needs to be a certain amount of peace that allows the fight or flight response to not be present blunting either sides ability to reason with eachother. This seems to be the reasoning behind a ceasefire beyond the simply instinctive response to stop bloodshed and which people can easily virtue signal with.

“This war is not going to take away any underlying causes, only a bona fide peace treaty can do that. This war is about removing Hamas and Gaza's military capabilities. I assume that after the war Israel will retain some security control like it has in the West Bank.”

 

People will argue that whatever designates security control is part of the underlying cause that keeps the cycle going. That is the current status quo which you rightly pointed needs changing but which there isn’t a clear objective solution to except remove Hamas and continue as is until Hamas 2.0 props up or a West Bank style security presence which also gets resistance and condemnation for the settler expansion IDF are complicit in by their lack of prosecution. Having laws aren’t enough but rule of law and implementation of it is needed also.

 That keeps the situation as an occupied / occupier dynamic which Israel will deny or say it isn’t an accurate label of the situation because they know what comes from that isn’t in their favour legally / morally. If Palestinians aren’t given a state in the full sense and Israel remain in some way then it needs to be called for what it is which is occupation or a one state within which different districts with different laws exist for different peoples akin to apartheid.

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Straight talk, nobody in that region has a realistic chance at stabilizing it peacefully now. People will just eventually tire of violence. Until a tragedy in response to this is great enough to flare it up again on a large scale.

Large groups in survival situations don't often respond unpredictably. It will be a % that decides violence is the best course of action, if I say 5% radicalize of 2 million from gaza that's 100k, 200k if we say 10%.

After that its less predictable, depending on how connected people are to those dying or affected. The Westbank has 2.6 million people living there, 5.2 million in Lebanon, How many more recruits do Hamas or Hezbollah get from this? Hezbollah is 100,000 or so currently. Shall we say a combined 50,000 more radicalize from these two regions which are affected but less so, which is optimistically less than 1%.

We are up to 150k to 250k. The Houthi are about 200k largely out of range but involved in hitting or detering your shipping, which is hurting you economically.

So we are at 350k to 450k. 

Surrounding countries, shall we say 20,000 more total are contributed to these radical groups, which is a very small number percentage-wise.

370k to 470k. Seems a reasonable number of new opponents, adding to the ones you had before. Direct Iran involvement backed by Russia is still a possibility, it's good for Russia if the West is distracted here. I think that is unlikely though despite the rhetoric.

Though if we say Hezbollah do stay more involved while Iran is interested in doing so, not exactly new opponents, but nevertheless given cause and reason to fight.

470k, to 570k, adding to whatever forces you currently face.

[Lila9]

A picture our soliders found in Khan Yunis - this is exactly how Palestinians educate their children in Gaza from the moment they are born to grow up to be terrorists.

[Lila9]

 

[Lila9]

No mercy for terrorists who initiate war by killing innocent people in their beds with their own hands.

I can't believe there are people protecting and justifying them while judging Israel for defending itself from these stage red savages.

The IDF arrested Hamas terrorists, offering them the option to surrender. Now that they've surrendered, they'll spend their lives in 5-star hotels in Israel, called prisons.

There, they'll live well, while online pro-Palestinians express concern about the terrorists' treatment and well being🤦🏼‍♀️

Hamas killed innocent Israeli people who were in the public bathroom in Zikim beach on October 7

Hamas killed an Israeli woman while she took a shower

Edited December 26, 2023 by Carl-Richard
Graphic images

[Lila9]

"Our people.... each of them will pick up a knife to stab an Israeli".

The psychopath leader of Hamas in Gaza.

 

[Lila9]

 

"Shooting all the Jews" in a Palestinian children TV show.

Highly distributing

Edited December 26, 2023 by Lila9

[zazen]

@Lila9 Very sad indeed. What’s caused them to be this radical?

2 million Gazans out of 2 billion Muslims is 0.1% of the Muslim population. If Jew hating and explicit incitement of killing was a uniquely Muslim thing we’d see a lot more of it but it’s unique to Gaza because of the situation their in.

It’s easy to indoctrinate kids when their childhood is taken from them in various form. Things like toys, musical instruments, chocolates and diapers have been banned at times by Israel to name a few things.

If people claim the current destruction and death in Gaza is Hamas’s fault and not Israel’s, can people also claim that Palestinian radicalisation is partially the fault of Israel imposing conditions on them that make it easy to radicalise in?

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Israel is not at all the cause to their behaviour nor to their suffering, but a triggering factor.

When someone has some kind of a disorder, I cannot be responsible to his suffering, but I do have responsibility to not make his condition worse especially if I am a familiy member of him or a friend or live nearby him, just like the neighborhood relationships between two societies, with their own unique weaknesses, that required mutual sensitivity to one another to not awake everyone's unique demon.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Israel is not at all the cause to their behaviour nor to their suffering, but a triggering factor.

When someone has some kind of a disorder, I cannot be responsible to his suffering, but I do have responsibility to not make his condition worse especially if I am a familiy member of him or a friend or live nearby him, just like the neighborhood relationships between two societies, with their own unique weaknesses, that required mutual sensitivity to one another to not awake everyone's unique demon.

Someone holding the gun with a finger on the trigger is still oppressive - whether the trigger is pulled or not. Resisting that oppression isn’t necessarily a disorder though it can be resisted in disorderly ways - seeking justice can be done unjustly.

The boycott movement which is a peaceful form of protest helped South Africa end its apartheid - the BDS movement against Israel is thwarted and stopped by legislation and laws. So when peaceful forms of protest are no longer available they are left with the un-peaceful forms of it - they seek life through death.

From the Israeli perspective security controls and defence the way Israel defines it isn’t seen as oppressive but it is to the outside world.

A argument can be made that a certain group runs a society better than another - again in the case of South Africa which is now ruining its own nation due to corruption etc I’ve heard a similar case been made for Palestinians that live better lives under Israeli leadership. If one group is less developed it’s not the right of another to ‘spread development’ to them in unjust ways by stripping them of their rights and dignity.

If they mess things up or fight each other that’s their right within their society - we can’t rob a society of its growth. People complain about Islam being spread by the sword in the past but remain silent when the US spread democracy by the gun - something being critiqued only now once they feel the repercussions of it via extremism, refugee crises and loss of credibility on the world stage.

Should the US be stripped of its rights and sovereignty because of its bad behaviour in the world? A child is governed by an adult but a society is not to be governed by another -  and even then modern parenting tells us children are to be treated with dignity or else they rebel. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen So if we reduce all that down to the root we get that:

Israel is not really allowed to deffend itself.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

5 hours ago, zazen said:

@Lila9 Very sad indeed. What’s caused them to be this radical?

2 million Gazans out of 2 billion Muslims is 0.1% of the Muslim population. If Jew hating and explicit incitement of killing was a uniquely Muslim thing we’d see a lot more of it but it’s unique to Gaza because of the situation their in.

It’s easy to indoctrinate kids when their childhood is taken from them in various form. Things like toys, musical instruments, chocolates and diapers have been banned at times by Israel to name a few things.

If people claim the current destruction and death in Gaza is Hamas’s fault and not Israel’s, can people also claim that Palestinian radicalisation is partially the fault of Israel imposing conditions on them that make it easy to radicalise in?

 

   True. It all starts with indoctrination, grooming, gaslighting and being in a cult brainwashed to hate others.

[Leo Gura]

Israel is engaged in ethic cleansing and  collective punishment. That much is obvious now.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vercingetorix]

@Leo Gura

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is engaged in ethic cleansing and  collective punishment. That much is obvious now.

How would Israel act differently if it was a higher consciousness state? How would you act if you were the PM of Israel?