New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

48 minutes ago, zazen said:

Whats vile is the attitude towards Palestinians and the dehumanization of them. Whilst this whole hostage swap is going on people are wondering 'hey, how come Israel have women and children prisoners.' to begin with. Even the liberal leftist opposition party in Israel claims that most of the deaths in Gaza are just terrorists hamas fighters. 

It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. It's absolutely tragic what's happening, I do view them as humans and I do squirm whenever I see human suffering. But that doesn't mean I drop all of the context and my critical thinking. I don't buy into your false equivalencies of comparing Israel to Hamas (the Israel=terrorist bullshit) and I don't compare innocent Israeli toddlers being held hostage by death cult terrorists to interned thuggish Palestinian teenagers.

There is a certain cold realism to my view. For example, I am also Russian. I certainly don't dehumanize Russians. In fact, I have a lot of love for Russians and feel a genuine connection but at the same time, I can view a situation in a cold realistic way and understand why Ukraine has to kill some Russians. I don't make false equivalencies between Ukraine and Russia. 
There was lately the bombing by Ukraine of a theater filled with Russian soldiers and there was an innocent woman performing for them, she died too. I was really disgusted by that, really sad but at the same time, it would be insane and stupid of me to blame Ukraine and be angry at them.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

.@Vrubel I didn't mean you are dehumanizing Palestinians, just generally those that do. I wasn't equivocating toddlers being taken hostage to thuggish teens but rounding up teens or children even if they have 'misbehaved' without charge, trial or access to their parents or lawyers is bad enough in my books to be called out.

You mentioned the silent majority are turned off at Pro-Palestinian protests and talking points. I don't like to see it as Pro one side or the other but I do clearly see that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation ends that will be pro both sides. Palestinian liberation will liberate the Israeli's of having to play prison guard on watch and dedicate resources to immense amounts of propaganda to hide the truth and continuously wash the stain that is occupation in a post-occupation, post colonial world - and that they get a bad image for.

I'd say to that any individuals expressing anger towards pro-Palestinians are, at best, comical and at worst, pitiful. Criticizing those who advocate for freedom from a long-standing oppressive regime is absurd. The atrocity of October 7 reflects the accumulated violence imposed by Israel on Palestinians for decades. It's similar to foolishly resenting an echo for responding, or a man being angered by his own shadow darkening the floor.

[Vrubel]

26 minutes ago, zazen said:

You mentioned the silent majority are turned off at Pro-Palestinian protests and talking points. I don't like to see it as Pro one side or the other but I do clearly see that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation ends that will be pro both sides. Palestinian liberation will liberate the Israeli's of having to play prison guard on watch and dedicate resources to immense amounts of propaganda to hide the truth and continuously wash the stain that is occupation in a post-occupation, post colonial world - and that they get a bad image for.

You must admit it's not that simple. Notice how the 7/10 attack came from Gaza, a piece of land Israel doesn't control. Hamas is actually more popular in the West Banks but because Israel has the ability to do regular raids there it keeps terrorist activities in check even though it can look ugly at times to outsiders. Obviously, there needs to be a solution. I think two states is the most realistic one but the Palestinian state definitely needs to be demilitarized. This will be a tricky question. Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent. 

Obviously, there are legitimate and valid ways to be pro-Palestine. I have a lot of respect for Israeli peace activists for example. But those protests we saw in Europe have put a lot of people off because they are very low-brow and horde-like, some were violent others outright supported Hamas. Don't be naive about the extremely low level of intelligence and integrity within these demonstrations. Badly integrated Muslim immigrant communities combined with extreme leftwing people turn the silent majority off, and you can't really blame them for that.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

Hamas excecuted yesterday 3 Palestinians in the the West Bank because they suspected these people were spying for Israel.

The excecution is brutal like in the middle ages, a drama show to the mass, the view of the people with their smartphones to document this as if it's some entertainment makes me sick.

Stage red mentality at its finest.

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-775019

This is why there is no chance for a moderate Palestinian leadership as long as they are under the control of Hamas and terrorists organizations alike, because as soon as there will be a moderate leadership who will be cool with peace with Israel, he would be executed.

Hamas is more than a physical entity, it's a ideology and the majority of the Arab world, including Palestinians, support it.

 

[Nivsch]

14 hours ago, zazen said:

that if the root cause of suffering that is the occupation

This is not the root cause.

The root cause is the unhealthy self tyranni the palestinians have on themselves, like the system is acting against itself and they project it out onto Israel. And what is the root cause of that disorder? maybe their feelings of inferiority on the fact that for centuries they didn't have a nation on their own whereas all the other ethnic groups in the middle east had.

The settlements are a trigger, but Israel does have responsibility to minimize triggers and to respect this system needs to help it to heal.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[Whitney Edwards]

18 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The two hostages released reported being treated very well by Hamas, what makes you say they are in bad conditions? Hamas is not abusing the hostages in order to defend their image.

I can't imagine being kidnapped by a terrorist and being treated well. Seems like a contradiction. 

[lina]

  The Armenian Patriarchate issued a statement calling for help for facing an existential threat in regards to the destruction of their quarter in Jerusalem. 

[jaylimix]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent.  

If you are still stage red as a society in the year 2023 with Internet access, which they do, then there is no hope for these people.

I call for the Xinjiang Counter-Terrorism initiative on these people.

Edited November 25, 2023 by jaylimix

[Jacob Morres]

5 hours ago, jaylimix said:

I call for the Xinjiang Counter-Terrorism initiative on these people.

This what you're advocating for?

> In recent years, the Chinese Communist Party under Xi Jinping Administration's policy has been marked by much harsher policies, including mass surveillance and the incarceration without trial of over one million Uyghurs and other Muslim minority ethnic groups in internment camps... government policies have included forced labor, suppression of Uyghur religious practices, political indoctrination, forced sterilization, forced contraception, and forced abortion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict#:~:text=In recent years%2C the Chinese,ethnic groups in internment camps.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Philipp]

Has anyone else seen this interview with roman finkenstein? 

[Hardkill]

Today, Hamas released 17 more hostages, while Israel released 39 Palestinian prisoners.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-25-2023-7d83895eb736c09fab3eada4c31524b0

[Nivsch]

37 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Today, Hamas released 17 more hostages, while Israel released 39 Palestinian prisoners.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-25-2023-7d83895eb736c09fab3eada4c31524b0

Last night with it's infinite cruelty hamas seperated in purpose between family members contrary to the deal and left a mother as a hostage while her daugther was released.

Also it's not that hamas wants to release anybody in a good gesture, it just doesn't have a choice after being under a military pressure and needed couple of days to re-arm. Thanks to that the deal made possible.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

I find it very heart warming, that despite the use of deception and psychological manipulation via the Western media in favor of Israel, the people of the world have still managed to negotiate such a landscape to come out in favor of the Palestinians.

During the Israel-Gaza-Lebanon war of 2006, I remember attending a protest in Europe at the time, and only about 500 people showed up. This was in stark contrast to the millions of people that demonstrated against the Iraq war three years earlier. 

However, fast forward almost twenty years to 2023, and millions of people are out on the streets all over Europe again, standing up against Israel and rightfully declaring that they won't tolerate the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Again, this is despite the propaganda that has been levied at them.

 

[Nivsch]

@kenway That is a very interesting theory but problematic and fulled with flaws.

What I know is that in the early 2000's Israel was MUCH more hated when the world was quite sure those suicide bombers are actually a freedom figthers. I live here, I was a teenager in the 2nd intifada and the vibe we got from the world then was so different for the worse. 

From then, a handful of peace negotiations between Israel an the Emirates, Bahrain, Morroco, Sudan. A normalization with Saudi Arabia when for the first time Israeli commercial airplanes can fly upon their country.

The world today understand better than ever that the palestinians are serial peace refusal and also have a big part of the responsibility for the problem. Let alone the arab world understands this.

The demonstrations are maybe more ebullient these days but this is also more trendy today to be special and fight for your truth. In Israel too the inner demonstrations had expanded quite greatly in their volume over the last decade and a half.

Also don't forget Europe today is fulled by arab refugees what wasn't at all the case in 2006.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

@Nivsch

It's not a theory. There has been a demonstrable rise in compassion for the Palestinian cause and a resistance to the demographically-focussed methods of the ultra-Zionist mindset.

We're not talking about national executives or leaders of countries here. Rather the changing attitude of the average person, and their capacity to defend themselves against mainstream narratives. These are the ones who are demonstrating. This is also reflected in polls where the majority, at the very least, have been calling for immediate ceasefire, in an environment where their leaders cannot even utter the phrase.

Plus, resistance does not equal hate. It is a mistake to parallel protesting against an unjust cause with seemingly abstract and uncontextualized hatred, that to be frank, has no basis in logical reality. Again, despite what you may have read, people don't just randomly wake up in the morning and decide to start hating Jews.

[zazen]

@kenway Social media has played a big part in it. The support for Palestinians has a generational gap.
 

From an article

Head of ADL: “But I also wanna point out that we have a major, major, major generational problem,” Greenblatt complains to his cohorts. “All the polling that I’ve seen — ADL’s polling, ICC’s polling, independent polling — suggests this is not a left or right gap, folks. The issue in the United States’ support for Israel is not left and right, it is young and old.”

“We really have a Tik-Tok problem, a Gen-Z problem,”

In reality, what Greenblatt and his associates have is a morality problem. They have a large group of people who have not been indoctrinated into accepting madness and amputating parts of their own conscience over the years, and so are able to look at the mass murder of civilians in Gaza with clear eyes.

Israel’s problem is not that people are being propagandized into hating it, it’s that people are not being successfully propagandized into supporting it.

There’s only so many ways you can spin the murder of thousands of children and the existence of an oppressive ‘security’ apparatus over people.

All the media obfuscation in the world is not enough to pull the wool over fresh eyes that are ready to see.

Edited November 26, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Philipp said:

Has anyone else seen this interview with roman finkenstein? 

Great interview. Here are two very good videos also:

 

 

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, kenway said:

in polls where the majority, at the very least, have been calling for immediate ceasefire, in an environment where their leaders cannot even utter the phrase.

Maybe the leadres are just more experienced and mature than the average young protestor and know that ceasefire won't solve anything as long as hamas is in charge on Gaza.

I can agree about the problem with the ever expansion of the settlements in the west bank and if a demonstration talks about this thing sepcifically I can even understand. But rarely this is the real goal of a pro palestinian protest and rarely you will see a protest with that much specific narrative.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 25/11/2023 at 0:47 AM, Vrubel said:

You must admit it's not that simple. Notice how the 7/10 attack came from Gaza, a piece of land Israel doesn't control. Hamas is actually more popular in the West Banks but because Israel has the ability to do regular raids there it keeps terrorist activities in check even though it can look ugly at times to outsiders. Obviously, there needs to be a solution. I think two states is the most realistic one but the Palestinian state definitely needs to be demilitarized. This will be a tricky question. Also, any Palestinian country will be very precarious as the population is deeply stage red and I can predict there will be constant altercations amongst themselves and periodic lashing out at Israel even when independent. 

Obviously, there are legitimate and valid ways to be pro-Palestine. I have a lot of respect for Israeli peace activists for example. But those protests we saw in Europe have put a lot of people off because they are very low-brow and horde-like, some were violent others outright supported Hamas. Don't be naive about the extremely low level of intelligence and integrity within these demonstrations. Badly integrated Muslim immigrant communities combined with extreme leftwing people turn the silent majority off, and you can't really blame them for that.

I agree it definitely isn’t that simple. There are toxic elements on both sides. The protests for the most part are positive. I was at the London protest with almost a million people and majority were fair and little to no arrests or violence. There are a few bad apples for sure but that shouldn’t stop people from supporting a just cause to end a conflict that see’s civilians dying.
 

The same way in more right wing protests which are anti-immigration you get completely racist people among them that de-legitimise the whole thing due to their extremism. Marginalisation leads to radicalisation and racism is extreme otherising and marginalisation.

Here’s a good talk between Sam Harris and Yuval Noah Harari. He mentions how a two state solution and peace are undermined from the Israeli side by Bibis government.

Listen to time stamps  ( 13-15 min ) and ( 16:30 - 18:30 ).

In fact by supporting and having a more extremist party like Hamas in power it de-legitimises the Palestinian cause the same way extremist racists de-legitimise the right wing and their valid concerns for unchecked immigration.

Hamas gives a reason to not establish peace or offer a state - and if a state is offered it’s done so with concessions favouring the Isreali side. Hamas is not the target but the excuse.

A good video on why and how Israel offer of a two state solution and any peace hasn’t worked:

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

Its absolutely shaking just the thought what would happen to them and how those kids themselves would manage if they would not release. 

Infinitely ungraspable.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nivsch