Sister is Vegan and Tested Very Low For Iron

[integral]

5 hours ago, undeather said:

How low is very low?
What's her hemoglobin, MCV, Ferritin, TIBC, Transferrin, Transferirin saturation
Is she bleeding a lot (period)?

All are important to tell about the severity and cause of the problem.
A lot of younger women experience low iron issues, independent of their diet.

Does this cover everything, what tests do you recommend? 

Edited May 27, 2023 by integral

[Schizophonia]

30 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Intresting questions. Here are my answers.

From a meat eater's perspective, there's no personal benefit from being vegan. It's a loss. 

From many vegans perspective it's not a question of whether it's a gain or loss. This issue is beyond selfish desires and ego.

If you make the decision to adopt any way of life, it is because you believe, even unconsciously, that there is ultimately a gain somewhere. There is something to be gained/good from going there.
Otherwise, it looks like a mind game.  If you make the decision to adopt any way of life, it is because you believe, even unconsciously, that there is ultimately a gain somewhere. There is something to be gained/good from going there.
When someone starts to become quite opaque it's because I think they haven't dug enough, with honesty and humor, into their real intentions. 

30 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

When I look at animals and put myself in their position, several points become evident to me:

1. It's hypocritical to treat someone in a way that I would not want to be treated by others.

Hypocrite is an abstract concept that you use to designate a phenomenon, in this case "treat someone in a way that I would not want to be treated by others", but it's a dead end, it doesn't predict an annoyance or even any concrete consequence that the triggering of this phenomenon would have on my interests.

To put it more simply, yes I kill animals for the pleasure of eating them and, at the same time, I don't want to be killed. What is the problem/contradiction?

It's not like deciding in your mind that animals "shouldn't" be killed is going to fundamentally change the rules of the universe and nature.

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2. I have no right to subject them to harm or mistreatment, as they have never caused any harm to me.

Law refers to a human construction, a set of explicit laws injunctions to the members of a community a way to behave.
You also insist on the "no right" and imply de facto that there is somewhere a universal law condemning the consumption of animal products.
All I saw when I looked up, day or night, was clouds and stars, I've never seen anywhere written "NO KILLING ANIMALS FORBIDDEN".
Incidentally, the majority of human and non-human animals that I have encountered did not seem to really follow the laws that you preach ah ah.
Finally, all the value of the law is based on the existence of a Justice having the means to enforce the said law under penalty of sanctions, but you have specified above that you do not believe in punishments.

So in summary, you are appealing to a law that cannot be found concretely anywhere, that no one seems to apply and for which you do not recognize any sanction.

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3. Through empathy and compassion, I can genuinely feel their pain as if it were my own. These capacities, which I believe were created by a higher power, enable me to connect with their suffering.

You're right, but that's no longer idealistic.
Mirror neurons are biological things, your history and upbringing (memories) are also concrete things.
Your inability to kill an animal is therefore not a question of virtue but of "ability".

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This discussion delves into the field of the philosophy of morality. I firmly believe that the suffering animals endure isn't justified by our desire for meat consumption. Just because the little monkey human desires something doesn't mean it's the right course of action. For example, the little monkey might desire to harm or rape an entire village, but that's clearly not what should be done.

Ditto, to whom do you have to justify yourself? Who decides who "must" do? What penalties? Where is all this written? 

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As humans, particularly in a society of abundance and technology we possess the choice and the power to transcend our desires and live in a more compassionate manner. While it is true that some animals naturally consume meat, it does not necessitate that we must do the same.

same, why would it be a requirement?

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My goal is not to demonize meat consumption and portray everyone who eat meat as evil.

Happy again, because you too have certainly eaten meat for a whole part of your life.
You are also certainly causing a lot of "harm" without even knowing it.

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I simply want people to be more aware to the choice they have, to the impact their actions have on their surroundings. The meat industry invests capital to hide the dark true of how meat, milk and eggs are "created". It's disturbing that someone is paying money in order to make you less aware to the impact that your choices make as an individual. I wish they were more transparent, why they aren't transparent? Why they draw happy cows and chickens on the packages of these "products"? 

Again, what does it matter if there is no punishment in the end. 
Moreover, it is up to you not to buy battery meat, just as it is up to you not to produce "evil" in other ways, for example by buying manufactured products made largely thanks to human exploitation.

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Yes, however, the more conscious God is, the less suffering would exist. Suffering arises from selfishness, from God's lack of consciousness, from our lack of consciousness, because we are God. God is not fully conscious. If God were more conscious, every person would embody the qualities of enlightened beings like Buddha or Jesus, even better.

I'm not sure with our current state of consciousness we can understand "God" and his will, even with all the DMT in the world haha.
I believe that more awareness helps less suffering above all for ourselves, precisely through a greater understanding of our own interests.

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Hypothetically, if God were fully conscious, the meat industry would cease to exist, and a more compassionate and loving world would be created not just for a particular group or humans alone, but for all beings.

ditto

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It's not merely a stage green cliche or fantasy but a real potential of this world as the general level of consciousness develops.

at least a little ah ah 

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Yeah but here it's your paranoia as a meat eater speaking, this fear is not rational because it's a matter of fact that people can survive, thrive, be healthy and live a long life with 100% plant-based diet. 

It has not been my experience

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Because I'm the creator of this movie and I think this movie can be better.

 

[undeather]

5 minutes ago, integral said:

Does this cover everything, what tests do you recommend? 

That's good enough for a screeing test.
It's a non-anaemic iron deficiency, which means that that blood markers are still upheld despite really low ferritin.

Either go for iron supplementation asap - like ferrous salts or whatever is readily available in your country.
Best combine it with Vitamin C to increase absorption.

Or If you dont want to go for the supplement route:
Fastest absorbed Iron is heme-iron from animal meats.
If she wants to stay vegan, go for high iron plant foods (dark leafy greens, beans, peas, lentils...) and make them part of her daily intake.
Also, avoid coffee,tee or wine after or before meals.

It usually takes at least 1-3 months to see improved blood levels. 
Especially if you go for the non-supplement path, dont expect rapid changes.

However, it's very important to follow up with a new blood-work to control for success.

 

[integral]

@undeather Thanks for the help! Will take another blood test in 1-3 months. ?

[LSD-Rumi]

@integral  Her Iron levels in the blood are good, but her stores of iron in the liver for example are low, so she is very susceptible to developing anemia in the future. She should supplement with Iron. If her periods are heavy and annoying , she should use contraceptives.

 

 

[Lila9]

15 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

If you make the decision to adopt any way of life, it is because you believe, even unconsciously, that there is ultimately a gain somewhere. There is something to be gained/good from going there.
Otherwise, it looks like a mind game.  If you make the decision to adopt any way of life, it is because you believe, even unconsciously, that there is ultimately a gain somewhere. There is something to be gained/good from going there.
When someone starts to become quite opaque it's because I think they haven't dug enough, with honesty and humor, into their real intentions. 

Yeah, but there is a difference between being focused on merely your narrow and selfish gain, and being focused on the gain of you and your surroundings together. The later is a more developed perspective.

I don't understand in what way it's a mind game, if a person cares about something beyond his ass.

19 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

 

To put it more simply, yes I kill animals for the pleasure of eating them and, at the same time, I don't want to be killed. What is the problem/contradiction?

 

Because if your government would come to you one day, out of nowhere and say to you that they will prison you in bad conditions for while, then torture you and painfully kill you for their own consumption, you would come to them with 100000 justifications why it's not ethical to do that, why it's bad, you will cry for your life because you see the death coming, you won't come with the same justifications that suffering is "natural" or "that's how life works", you will do everything to save yourself. 

 

31 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

problem/contradiction?

It's not like deciding in your mind that animals "shouldn't" be killed is going to fundamentally change the rules of the universe and nature.

I can't change the fact that animals eat animals and I don't need to. But I can make a conscious choice within my own power and give inspiration to other humans treat animals better.

 

34 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Law refers to a human construction, a set of explicit laws injunctions to the members of a community a way to behave.
You also insist on the "no right" and imply de facto that there is somewhere a universal law condemning the consumption of animal products.
All I saw when I looked up, day or night, was clouds and stars, I've never seen anywhere written "NO KILLING ANIMALS FORBIDDEN".
Incidentally, the majority of human and non-human animals that I have encountered did not seem to really follow the laws that you preach ah ah.
Finally, all the value of the law is based on the existence of a Justice having the means to enforce the said law under penalty of sanctions, but you have specified above that you do not believe in punishments.

So in summary, you are appealing to a law that cannot be found concretely anywhere, that no one seems to apply and for which you do not recognize any sanction.

According to morality, justice principals and concepts, which I consciously accept and value, because I see their value and importance to society, I don't have the right to harm others, especially innocent beings like children and animals. I have the right to protect them though.

It's not a law but a principal, and I don't need it to be written anywhere in order to follow it, it's enough to feel it, and for me it feels right.

 

44 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Ditto, to whom do you have to justify yourself? Who decides who "must" do? What penalties? Where is all this written? 

I consciously choose to believe and follow it, I don't care if it's written anywhere or not, that's how I feel it should be.

46 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

same, why would it be a requirement?

It's not a requirement but a description of our current situation and the freedom of choice we have today, not to eat meat.

 

49 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Happy again, because you too have certainly eaten meat for a whole part of your life.

You are also certainly causing a lot of "harm" without even knowing it.

I don't consume meat most of my life, but certainly without any doubt I'm causing some harm without even knowing it, which makes me innocent because I'm unconscious to this.

It would have been worse if I had continued eating meat while being aware of its impact. 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Again, what does it matter if there is no punishment in the end. 

Moreover, it is up to you not to buy battery meat, just as it is up to you not to produce "evil" in other ways, for example by buying manufactured products made largely thanks to human exploitation.

People are responsible to their choices as well. Society lacks in critical thinking as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

I'm not sure with our current state of consciousness we can understand "God" and his will, even with all the DMT in the world haha.
I believe that more awareness helps less suffering above all for ourselves, precisely through a greater understanding of our own interests.

It doesn't contradict what I wrote.

After you awaken to the fact that for most of your life you were driven by automatic selfish interests, you start asking yourself whether you are capable of doing something less selfish than what you used to do. And then, boom, you become green and then yellow and so on.

 

[montecristo]

On 5/27/2023 at 10:40 AM, integral said:

Very Low Iron Vegan, what is the protocol for this? She wants to go buy a supplement if so what is the correct form for absorption? I tired a iron supplement a few years ago and it made me very sick so im of course skeptical, is there any other way to solve this with out eating meat? 

the "protocol" is to simply eat meat. She will never achieve health without it and will be scrambling for "cures and protocols" the rest of her life

[Michael569]

@integral have her batch cook foods that contain red lentils and other high iron foods. If she insists on remaining vegan, this needs to be dealt with otherwise she'll be a walking zombie without energy.

You can condense extreme nutritional density per portion using something like an Instapot and making lentil/wholegrain/veggie meals. 

Salads and vegan burgers won't cut it. She might need to supplement too. Iron bisglycinate might be the way to go starting at about 50mg per day (Vega had a product like that)

At 8 her ferritin levels are very low but can still be corrected without transfusions.

Btw her TSH is higher than it should be too, has that been flagged? Depends on whome you talk to,any would say anything above 2 is clinically relevant 

She might even consider working with a dietitian.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Michael569

[undeather]

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Btw her TSH is higher than it should be too, has that been flagged? Depends on whome you talk to,any would say anything above 2 is clinically relevant 

Very low iron levels can screw with T4->T3 conversion (thyroid peroxidase needs iron to function properly) - which could potentially lead to higher TSH through loweerd feedback mechanism.

but...

Low thyroid function can also impair iron absorption.

Chicken/egg problem right there!
Good call - man I am just not used to those stupid mU/L units  

[Schizophonia]

@Lila9 I could possibly answer on another topic but I will stop polluting this one ah ah

[ZenAlex]

On 27/05/2023 at 5:46 AM, Schizophonia said:

Stop having an ideological and unnatural diet.

Rofl, there is no reason you have to be anaemic on a vegan diet. If you're going to criticize a vegan diet at least do your research.

This girl could have health issues that hinder absorption of things like Iron, or she may have just made bad choices.

So many Anti-vegan people are so incredibly uninformed it's laughable.

[ZenAlex]

On 28/05/2023 at 7:02 AM, montecristo said:

the "protocol" is to simply eat meat. She will never achieve health without it and will be scrambling for "cures and protocols" the rest of her life

Nah the protocol is to actually know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to nutrition and literally google sources of iron and add them to your diet.

Are some of you incapable of formulating a basic meal planner? It's not hard.

Sorry to get annoyed but all these Anti vegan posts annoy me when they;re coming from people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about and have never done considerable research into it.

[LfcCharlie4]

So many girls at school were anemic it's kind of crazy 

Michael's recommendations are brilliant 

Beyond Iron read Simon's guide - https://theproof.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/PlantProofSupplementGuide.pdf 

[RendHeaven]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:50 AM, Lila9 said:

Would you, as the creator of this universe, consciously choose to torture and kill millions of animals for the sake of your egoic pleasure? No

Actually yes.

That's precisely how we got here in this dog-eat-dog world

You think God made a mistake when designing an animal kingdom that consumes itself to perpetuity? 

On 5/27/2023 at 5:30 AM, Lila9 said:

Hypothetically, if God were fully conscious, the meat industry would cease to exist, and a more compassionate and loving world would be created not just for a particular group or humans alone, but for all beings.

Unbelievably arrogant. The cosmos runs with Divine Precision without humans interjecting or forcing a trajectory. It has been this way forever, and it will be this way forever.

It is true that individual/collective human decisions and actions are a part of this Divine Precision, so I am not advocating for inaction or passivity per se. If you have a dream or a goal, swing for the fences and actualize it with every fiber of your being or die trying.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that the current state of affairs is somehow inadequate or less perfect. You really tried to frame God as inept, I'm aghast lol.

Consider that if the meat industry ceased to exist, perhaps so too would the majority of mankind. I'm not saying this WILL happen. I'm saying it's likely. Did you even consider that before insisting that your personal human dream is more righteous than what we already have?

On 5/27/2023 at 5:30 AM, Lila9 said:

Yes, however, the more conscious God is, the less suffering would exist.

This is pure falsehood. The fact that suffering is allowed to appear on a relativistic level is sheer beauty, intelligence, and perfection. Removing suffering from the cast would cause unfathomable imbalance to the Whole.

It's precisely because GOD = AWAKE that suffering exists.

You don't have to believe me, but I urge you to treat my position generously and genuinely wonder why I would say such a thing.

 

Edit: I don't mean to pick on you by the way, I hope I don't come across as too antagonistic. I'm just genuinely interested in this topic and I happen to disagree with you at every turn hahaha. I speak blunt and I call your words "arrogant, false" etc. But this is not a character judgement on you. It is simply my impression of the words I read on this page. I know you are beautiful and wise and perfect.

Edited June 1, 2023 by RendHeaven

[Schizophonia]

20 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

 

Edit: I don't mean to pick on you by the way, I hope I don't come across as too antagonistic. I'm just genuinely interested in this topic and I happen to disagree with you at every turn hahaha. I speak blunt and I call your words "arrogant, false" etc. But this is not a character judgement on you. It is simply my impression of the words I read on this page. I know you are beautiful and wise and perfect.

lmao

You know you've interacted too much with the politically correct schizophrenic people of Actualized.org when you start putting warning paragraphs at the end of the post to avoid being blocked/ghosted because you didn't put a smiley or compliment on all the lines.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Lila9]

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Actually yes.

That's precisely how we got here in this dog-eat-dog world

You think God made a mistake when designing an animal kingdom that consumes itself to perpetuity? 

If that's precisely how we got here in this dog-eat-dog world, is that mean that we consciously obligated to hold this mentality at any cost?

No, I don't think that God made mistake as there are no mistakes for God, only trials and errors like in any play, and the natural evaluation of things shows that things improve over time.

God's design is not fixed, it's dynamic, always changing and evolving.

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

But don't make the mistake of thinking that the current state of affairs is somehow inadequate or less perfect. You really tried to frame God as inept, I'm aghast lol.

In the absolute sense, the current state is perfect. In the relative sense, it's not. There is a paradox. Just because everything is perfect as it is on an absolute level, it doesn't mean that we should be sitting passively and doing nothing. Yes, we should accept that there are many things that are not in our control. However, there are things that are within our control. As we are part of the divine creation and a species blessed with a good amount of creativity, why repress it? Why not act on our visions?

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Consider that if the meat industry ceased to exist, perhaps so too would the majority of mankind. I'm not saying this WILL happen. I'm saying it's likely. Did you even consider that before insisting that your personal human dream is more righteous than what we already have?

You refer to this as my dream, but perhaps it is something that could occur in the next century. If not through a collective increase in consciousness and people's voluntary decision to abstain from consuming meat, it may be achieved through advancements in technology.

Just like human slavery, it was once unimaginable that it would ever come to an end. It also used to be someone's dream that one day it would cease to exist.

While it hasn't been completely eradicated, it is no longer as prevalent and accepted as it was in the past.

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

This is pure falsehood. The fact that suffering is allowed to appear on a relativistic level is sheer beauty, intelligence, and perfection. Removing suffering from the cast would cause unfathomable imbalance to the Whole.

 

From the absolute perspective it's all beautiful nice and perfect, from the relative perspective, there is a place for improvement and there is no shame about that.

I'm not sure if it's possible to completely get rid of suffering, but we can definitely make progress in reducing it as society develops.

Advanced societies with relatively easier life have been established after enduring significant suffering in the past. It's hard to believe how bad things used to be in those times. 

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

It's precisely because GOD = AWAKE that suffering exists.

I really don't understand why it would be wrong to say that God is not fully awake if we are all God and many of us are still not awake?

If God is fully awake, it means that God is something outside of us, since the majority of us are not awake.

Have you noticed that we create lots of suffering because we are unconscious and selfish? What do you think will happen as we become more conscious of the preventable amount of suffering that we create? Do you believe that we still create the same amount of suffering?

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

You don't have to believe me, but I urge you to treat my position generously and genuinely wonder why I would say such a thing.

I accept what you wrote and have read it carefully. I appreciate your efforts in discussing this. However, in my opinion, your position is incomplete.

21 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Edit: I don't mean to pick on you by the way, I hope I don't come across as too antagonistic. I'm just genuinely interested in this topic and I happen to disagree with you at every turn hahaha. I speak blunt and I call your words "arrogant, false" etc. But this is not a character judgement on you. It is simply my impression of the words I read on this page. I know you are beautiful and wise and perfect.

It's strange because you judged me for being arrogant (even though it wasn't my intention at all), but then you consciously wrote an arrogant response to me. Are you entitled to be arrogant while I am not? Am I missing something?

Regardless, I accept it, and I'm not mad.

Thank you for your genuine comment ?

 

 

 

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

lmao

You know you've interacted too much with the politically correct schizophrenic people of Actualized.org when you start putting warning paragraphs at the end of the post to avoid being blocked/ghosted because you didn't put a smiley or compliment on all the lines.

Have I ever personally offended you in any way and I don't know?

[Schizophonia]

3 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Have I ever personally offended you in any way and I don't know?

I have no problem with you in any way, the message was not targeting you.

[Lila9]

42 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

I have no problem with you in any way, the message was not targeting you.

Okay ?

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Okay ?

Anyway even if my message was aimed at you, it doesn't matter.
I too am unpleasant, in my own way.

I take all this as a joke more than anything else, and it was not even directly related to the subject
Which itself has nothing to do with the starting topic of the topic by the way

Edited June 2, 2023 by Schizophonia