Hurdles of being SD tier 2

[StarStruck]

Do any of you guys who are also tier 2 face any hurdles? I'm interested to see if there are any correlations.

[Jannes]

Wouldn’t a fully tier 2 person see their problems as an opportunity to investigate and learn and not take it personal?

Seeing something as a hurdle means you take it personal. I think a full stage 2 person would see their problems, let’s say psychological problems as something they just want to understand. Like "oh that’s why I am so fucked up and oh that’s why I act the way I act, that’s so incredible interesting.“

Edited November 9, 2022 by Jannes

[StarStruck]

9 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Wouldn’t a fully tier 2 person see their problems as an opportunity to investigate and learn and not take it personal?

Seeing something as a hurdle means you take it personal. I think a full stage 2 person would see their problems, let’s say psychological problems as something they just want to understand. Like "oh that’s why I am so fucked up and oh that’s why I act the way I act, that’s so incredible interesting.“

Stage yellow people aren’t super humans. They have their hurdles too. Most stage yellow people aren’t full yellow anyway. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by StarStruck

[Jannes]

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Stage yellow people aren’t super humans.

Idk about that ?

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

They have their hurdles too. Most stage yellow people aren’t full yellow anyway. 

Then it’s the parts of themself that isn’t yellow yet that feel hurdles. 
 

That’s at least my intuitive understanding of stage 2.

[integral]

Physical health problems that effects the mind. 

[Byun Sean]

Yellow still sees reality as imperfect and views itself as an instrument to help fix the world through self actualization.

yellow has not transcended the mind and is still trying to model reality as the ultimate truth/theory of everything.

while models are very useful, the map can never BE the territory/ Absolute Truth which is integrated in turquoise.

 

Turquoise can have a harder time participating in practical survival activities like business since their high integrity makes them more caring and less ruthless.

this can also make them better at business though in the long term since they do fulfilling business with soul creating more loyal consumers.

[thisintegrated]

Lower Turquoise:

1. Physical health

2. Sadness/discomfort from inability to help others

3. Greater awareness of possibilities = greater potential for fomo

 

Yellow:

1. Frustration at T1's small-mindedness

2. Frustration at inability to make change due to lack of power

[Matt23]

I feel like Diogenes is the perfect metaphor for what Tier-2 hurdles would look like: living totally self-reliantly, independent of any social pressures, totally dissatisfied with what the "mob" thinks and does and rejects them outright.

[thisintegrated]

14 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

I feel like Diogenes is the perfect metaphor for what Tier-2 hurdles would look like: living totally self-reliantly, independent of any social pressures, totally dissatisfied with what the "mob" thinks and does and rejects them outright.

He didn't really give a fuck tho, so those weren't problems for him.

[Ulax]

2 hours ago, Matt23 said:

I feel like Diogenes is the perfect metaphor for what Tier-2 hurdles would look like: living totally self-reliantly, independent of any social pressures, totally dissatisfied with what the "mob" thinks and does and rejects them outright.

That sounds more tier 1 to me. I would think tier 2 would understand the hell out of the mob and see that everyone was acting out of some understandable cause, and that it couldn't be any other way.

[Lila9]

I guess some occasional boredom around tier 1 people, feeling more misunderstood and isolated around tier 1 people, more struggle to find friends/romantic partners in your stage because tier 2 people are the minority. In some cases the likelihood of being demonized and ridiculed by tier 1 people. Especially by red/blue/orange.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Lila9

[ThePoint]

2 years ago I was hovering around Yellow, but I was still working on integrating Orange. 

After getting both physical and mental health problems I think I’ve regressed to Stage Beige. I think my Orange pursuits may have contributed to me burning out in some way.
Now I am the opposite of who I used to be and I now have addictions/coping mechanisms like masturbation and food.

I can’t actually accurately map myself anywhere at this point. Spiral Dynamics assumes you are relatively healthy. 

Your spiral stage can change depending on circumstances and situations.

For example, if you’re in a high risk, dangerous environment like some parts of the world, you’ll mostly have to be in Stage Red in order to survive. 

So health problems can be a huge hurdle.
 

Another hurdle is frustration with the ideals Tier 2 has and the speed at which those ideals can be actualized. E.g. they can have visions of where society could be but there’s so much inertia in society that it would take a long time for it to get to the point they envision. 

[Ulax]

I think yellow folk who have unintegrated green and haven't got to turquoise will often suffer a lot.

You understand things happen systemically, and every time you come across some heinous shit in the world you realise it couldn't have been any other way. Yet at the same time you don't have an effective way of processing your emotions, and you don't have the mechanisms of denial that tier 1 stages have at their automatic disposal.

 

[Davino]

I find it difficult that people don't even have a point of reference to understand my experience of life, myself and reality all together. Not even a point of reference, imagination falls too short. Yet you understand all their ins and outs, how their own mind tricks them and how you also were tricked by that. You look into the eyes of someone and you just immediately know almost everything about him, just by the way they act, their voice and the way the carry themselves, yet they look at you and there is a great abism.

However, the rest is amazing and you can always trip with that people to satisfy this need for existential connection or find like minded individuals who are also solid tier 2, but it's rare.

[something_else]

I’m always sceptical when I see people refer to themselves as tier 2. 

Kinda reminds me of how you see a ton of people self-type as INFJ with MBTI because it’s often perceived to be a very desirable and intriguing type. But then upon further examination those people sometimes lack even basic social skills.

Like unless you’ve really got your shit together in life you can’t really call yourself tier 2. You have to have thoroughly taken care of all the survival shit in life, to the point where most people in lower stages would look at your life and go ‘wow’ or at very least respect you for what you’ve done and experienced.

To be tier 2 you have to have experienced a lot of what life has to offer and integrated all of the lower stages pretty thoroughly.

I’m not necessarily targeting this at you, it’s more of a general observation with not only SD but any kind of personality metric. People very very often type themselves what they want to be rather than what they really are.

[Matt23]

44 minutes ago, something_else said:

I’m always sceptical when I see people refer to themselves as tier 2. 

Like unless you’ve really got your shit together in life you can’t really call yourself tier 2. You have to have thoroughly taken care of all the survival shit in life, to the point where most people in lower stages would look at your life and go ‘wow’ or at very least respect you for what you’ve done and experienced.

To be tier 2 you have to have experienced a lot of what life has to offer and integrated all of the lower stages pretty thoroughly.

I’m not necessarily targeting this at you, it’s more of a general observation with not only SD but any kind of personality metric. People very very often type themselves what they want to be rather than what they really are.

Word. 

I've noticed this a lot too.  I think this kind of thinking is common here on the forum at least.  I doubt anyone on the forum is actually Tier-2; at the very least not fully embodied.  I've always felt that if people are on the forum, I doubt they're Tier-2.  Example; I don't think you're seeing any Daniel Schmachtenbergers, Ken Wilbers, or Jordan Hall's on the forum.  These guys got their own creations, organizations, and projects to run and I can't see them spending much time on an online spiritual coach's forum, especially a forum run by someone else.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the whole theory of SD itself can be put under reasonable scrutiny and doubt as a "complete" system that fully captures human experience, diversity, and possibilities of being.  Even the idea of linear hierarchy in human psychological development can be disputed.  

Edited November 13, 2022 by Matt23

[ValiantSalvatore]

For a good review check this:

https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/turquoise/
https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/yellow/

As well as you can buy the course on Integral life to go through all the stages. Tier2 mosty called Teal takes a lot of study and work to integrate. I've been listening for it and practicing it for years with even small courses on InsightTimer offered by Ken Wilber. Reading almost all Wilbers and doing the work. IMO even when I meet integral people at integral life who are TIER2. It's not easy to detect. 

For example I spiral down the most when I have physical and mental issues, when I exercise and work regularly and sleep regularly I function highly at TQ as an more symbol aware individual referencing a bit of snippet knowledge from Susan-Cook-Greuters Ego-Development Model. Leo has a video on this!!! Must watch almost!!

I notice how important it is to study it in more detail. I did the full course on integral life and did every exercise besides the stage turqouise one and I notice for example. As the three main lines that dictate as far as I know full Tier2 are: cognitive line of development, emotional line of development and moral line of development. (check kosmic consciouness for a reference book/audiobook by Wilber). 

I for example struggle with a Yellow/Turqouise moral and emotional line as there are not many individual emobdying it. Values and Needs are even seperate... if you want to get technical. Although they are part of AQAL

44 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

I've noticed this a lot too.  I think this kind of thinking is common here on the forum at least.  I doubt anyone on the forum is actually Tier-2; at the very least not fully embodied.  I've always felt that if people are on the forum, I doubt they're Tier-2.  Example; I don't think you're seeing any Daniel Schmachtenbergers, Ken Wilbers, or Jordan Hall's on the forum.  These guys got their own creations, organizations, and projects to run and I can't see them spending much time on an online spiritual coach's forum, especially a forum run by someone else.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the whole theory of SD itself can be put under reasonable scrutiny and doubt as a "complete" system that fully captures human experience, diversity, and possibilities of being.  Even the idea of linear hierarchy in human psychological development can be disputed.  

Schamchtenberge is a good example of fully TQ at the cognitive and moral line, I doubt his emotional development. Seen other masters who are way way above him see Peter Ralston for example as a fully living Tier 3 individual. As soon as you hit stream entry you basically are functioning at TIER3. 

Tier2 is pretty low of a devleopment imo, it's not that hard anymore. At least that is my opinion without studying it like a rigid academic, although I studied and did enough to tell. I am at Teal and sometimes broken Teal because of life circumstances. The two links above are a good reference.

Most forget that all of the stages are online... so they only focus on ego instead of seeing through the ego! As Tier2 is not egoless it's highly ego-aware! That is an important distinction. Most here are most likely currently low-high Yellow as the rational "dogmatic/scientific reductionistic" oranges somehow left the forum. After years of beign here... check my profile I can tell mostly who is at a high functioning stage, although it get's confusing even after having done the courses. 

Ken Wilber is at Tier3 -> First ego-less stage coral/indigo + morals + emotional line = Full Tier3 according to Wilber criteria. No idea what Leo thinks about this topic...

Obviously, appealing to authorities. Cook-Greuter is great in terms of making a scientific study of Tier1 and Tier2. Although my science is rather rusty currently...

Even if you did the development it's revoke able to a degree according to Wilber at least. So when you did the work and fall of you horse, you can climb back up. There are regression within the model explained.. claiming anything is an issue. See how Leo reaches alien intelligence and the next one comes. OMFG I reached it too, trust people by their actions mostly.. not their words imo.
 

I dunno how many people I corrected here about this topic....

Quote

Third Tier

Conventionally, a tier is just an arbitrary grouping of stages. Integral Theory often highlights three tiers: First Tier, which consists of the levels up to and including Green altitude; Second Tier, which consists of Teal and Turquoise altitude; and Third Tier, which includes all post-Turquoise levels of development (Indigo, Violet, Ultraviolet, and Clear Light).

https://integrallife.com/glossary/third-tier/

Focusing on third3 would do better than focusing on Tier2. Tier2 is quiet shallow imo after meeting some and many of them as well as enlightend masters face to face. Leo is doing fantastic work, although it's extremely difficult to embody, and stuff changes all the time. 

My personal opinion I think Schmachtenberger is a pussy because he does not push himself to Tier3.  and because he wears a German surname  for a little bit of bias.

Edited November 13, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

1 hour ago, something_else said:

I’m always sceptical when I see people refer to themselves as tier 2. 

Kinda reminds me of how you see a ton of people self-type as INFJ with MBTI because it’s often perceived to be a very desirable and intriguing type. But then upon further examination those people sometimes lack even basic social skills.

Like unless you’ve really got your shit together in life you can’t really call yourself tier 2. You have to have thoroughly taken care of all the survival shit in life, to the point where most people in lower stages would look at your life and go ‘wow’ or at very least respect you for what you’ve done and experienced.

To be tier 2 you have to have experienced a lot of what life has to offer and integrated all of the lower stages pretty thoroughly.

I’m not necessarily targeting this at you, it’s more of a general observation with not only SD but any kind of personality metric. People very very often type themselves what they want to be rather than what they really are.

When doing the courses, there are tell-tale signs although it's difficult to explain, when nobody does the courses, as there barely is any research and scientifc modern agenda, reduces most things to scientific studies. So there is always the burden of proof... 

Some are there and don't even know it. That is the joke. The bigger issue is integration and creating structures for growth. That is sort of the real work of Tier2 as well as many coaches/life coaches/software engineers work at Teal. Although with mostly low moral/emotional development.

Edited November 13, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Matt23]

7 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

 

Schamchtenberge is a good example of fully TQ at the cognitive and moral line, I doubt his emotional development.
 

Seems to me his EQ would be pretty good and high.  Seems robust enough to handle lots of perspectives and situations etc. and from the obviously limited knowledge we have of who he is, from his YT clips etc., he's displayed pretty grounded, calm-cool-collected EQ and the ability to listen empathically a lot when talking with people (asking questions, and he seems like he really listens and takes in what others say).  He was a counsellor/therapist I know for a bit too. Dunno how long. 

Also, looking at the people he interacts with/is friends with (not only interacts with, but leads and runs/co-creates big projects and organizations with), people who to me seem like very "developed" people, I don't think you just do those things and are in those circles (again, not just "in the circle" socially, but leading and doing big projects with) without having a high degree of emotional intelligence.   I could be wrong though of course.  I dunno what it's actually like from his/their perspectives.  

Obviously we're running into a problem of categorizing people based on limited video clips, anecdotes, work resumes, and any writings they've published.  As well as using partial theories in which we're doing the categorizations as well.  

But, just my impression is the opposite.  Interesting.  

[ValiantSalvatore]

It's rare to have a forum that has potentially so many highly developed people, like compare from a lower perspective how many lower/earlier stages you meet. At best you find high Greens who are open and loving and might even excell at the emotional line at TQ, yet lack moral development at TQ. Where I also have issues as points of reference besides Wilber.