Critique: Leo's video on the left is one of his worst...

[LordFall]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:51 AM, Phil777 said:

12 hours ago, Phil777 said:

@Leo Gura

You cannot honestly state that most people are inherently lazy and selfish if you have the right understanding of what causes people to develop psyches that manifest such characteristics. There are seldom children that get born in a healthy, growth conducive environment with their needs met and that are loved by both parents, that do not have an insatiable drive for exploration, adventure, expression and "doing things" as well as a ln inherent drive to share and collaborate.

However, and I am going to make an additional point here, how much more a CEO for example gets compensated more than his/her employees is, as you point out in your video, relative. We agree. You seem to make the point that that justifies the current level of inequality. No, I would argue that it has gone way out of hand and that people havng to work 2-3 jobs just to make end meet is not tolerable or justified by "value creation" which is relative as well. The determination of the value of goods and services may be best determined through market forces as of now, but it is still a relative system. Furthermore, How the generated profit is split between all actors within a company is completely relative and to a large degree not coupled to market forces. If the CEO or the savings account of the company got 10 percent less of the overall profit but instead this money got addeed to the salary of all workers, they would all have significantly higher standards of living without significantly infringing on the survivabilty of the company or the standard of living of the CEO. That's how out of proportion and radicalized this capitalistic system has become. We don't need communism but simply a less prominent lower class and an uncompromising social security system.

My friend, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Our society is not really even close to stage orange yet, meaning the full depth of capitalistic individualism has only begun to manifest itself. It's still being held up by tribal collectivism(stage blue.)

When the scope of things like automation, decentralized finance, drone warfare, etc are reached and you can start to make billions with 5-10 people as opposed to tens/hundreds of thousands of employees, you will see what a stage orange world will look like; which is needed to reach the stage green state of a more humane economy. 

The 21st century will IMO be way more brutal than the 20th century. Your ideas are nice but the average person is not ready/willing to take full responsibility for their own existence. Even today you can make a living-learning relatively simple freelancing skills and most people refuse to do that. I say refuse because I'm not talking about people in poverty that don't have time to study business because they're working three jobs. I mean middle-class cosy people. When the rugged is pulled from under them, they will struggle big time.

COVID has taught me how separated and antagonistic our communities and society still are. We are nowhere close to widespread mutual collaboration. When the basic comforts of society are pulled from us, the average person is just as ruthless and cruel as you would expect stage-red people to be. 

[DocWatts]

53 minutes ago, LordFall said:

My friend, I think you're in for a rude awakening. Our society is not really even close to stage orange yet, meaning the full depth of capitalistic individualism has only begun to manifest itself. It's still being held up by tribal collectivism(stage blue.)

When the scope of things like automation, decentralized finance, drone warfare, etc are reached and you can start to make billions with 5-10 people as opposed to tens/hundreds of thousands of employees, you will see what a stage orange world will look like; which is needed to reach the stage green state of a more humane economy. 

Hell, the entire cyberpunk genre is actually a really good satirical and cautionary portrayal of a completely unshackled Orange meme not buttressed by Blue (or Green) collectivism.

Of course the irony of folks appropriating something that's a critique of thier values (because cool aesthetics) is hardly unique to Orange 

Edited October 24, 2022 by DocWatts

[Thought Art]

Please review tier 2 before contuing to judge Leo and others for not meeting your ideas of Tier 2.

 

@Phil777

Edited October 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Phil777 said:

@Thought Art "Outlawing slavery is the most ethical, humane and most morally sound action to take."

"It doesn't matter as people want to and are going to own slaves" - most americans in the first half of the 19th century.

"tier 2" everybody.

It's like we are living in ancient Rome and we both agree that slavery is bad, and then I tell you it will take another 1800 years to abolish it, but you whine to me that I am immoral because we should have abolished it yesterday.

Yes, that would be Tier 2, you jackass.

Your moralism makes you blind to systems thinking.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[DocWatts]

So while I may have some quibbles with some of the specifics, as far Leo's primary point about the developmental blindness (and judgemental attitudes that arise from such) on the Left, he hit the nail on the head. I would really encourage people who consider themselves Leftists (as I do) to contemplate the points he's making in a serious way. And to pay particular attention to the points where you find yourself getting triggered. Note that doesn't mean that you have to agree with every point he's making, but there may be far more substance here than you're willing to admit.

Edited October 24, 2022 by DocWatts

[Thought Art]

1 minute ago, DocWatts said:

So while I may have some quibbles with some of the specifics, as far Leo's primary point about the developmental blindness (and judgemental attitudes that arise from such) on the Left, he hit the nail on the head. I would really encourage people who consider themselves Leftists (as I do) to contemplate the points he's making in a serious way. And to pay particular attention to the points where you find yourself getting triggered. Note that doesn't mean that you have to agree with every point, but there may be far more substance here than you're willing to mid.

Everyone should review the video on stage yellow as well. Then watch the left videos. 

[RareGodzilla]

@Phil777 I don't think that anyone here wants you to abandon your ideals all together. Rather than that, to re-think the methods of approaching them and choosing the right time and place for them.

Political parties such as Die Linke are quite a good example. These kinds of stage green parties tend to be very good-hearted and are some of the more highly developed parties out there. Despite their support for the working class, their voter base is typically made up of highly educated (stage-green) metropolitan residents. Why is that? It's because they are stage green people doing stage green stuff. This curses them to being forever stuck at around 10% support.

So what they can do is either be victims and cry about the people are so racist and bigoted, or what they can do is rethink their approach and modify it in a way that will appeal to the stage blue/orange working folk base. And, yes, this may imply a reduction in veganism or some identity politics topic. But ultimately, if it would help them win elections it would allow them to actually get stuff done. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by RareGodzilla

[Jake Chambers]

The problem with Leo is that he actually doesn't have a deep understanding of history and society but he thinks that he does. He makes a lot of valid points but invalid also. He is simply a lot less understanding than a lot of leftist scholars and his timeframe ideas are often completely horseshit. Collectivism is a lot harder to understand than it seems. 

[DocWatts]

38 minutes ago, Jake Chambers said:

The problem with Leo is that he actually doesn't have a deep understanding of history and society but he thinks that he does. He makes a lot of valid points but invalid also. He is simply a lot less understanding than a lot of leftist scholars and his timeframe ideas are often completely horseshit. Collectivism is a lot harder to understand than it seems. 

Many of the points he was making are subtle and hard to see if your center of gravity is still anchored in Green (I know this from personal experience).

It's important to note that Leftism (and even socialism) can be practiced from a Yellow perspective, but it absolutely requires one to drop the overly judgemental attitude of the Green-meme and engage with the existing levels of development within society.

Keep in mind that the center of gravity for the vast majority of the world is centered around Blue, so 300 years for the world's center of gravity to shift to Green seems like a reasonable time frame (and 300 years might be optimistic).

That doesn't mean the United States has to wait 300 years for Universal Healthcare and publicly funded higher education; there's a good likelihood that the United States will start catching up with the rest of the developed world in 1-2 generations as Millennials and Gen Z move into positions of power that the Boomers and Gen X'ers are currently occupying.

I myself think that Leo was too charitable to the power structures inherent to capitalism, but that doesn't invalidate the overall argument about the blindspots he brought up. If we want to see Leftist ideas and values integrated into our existing society, a Yellow approach is the best way to achieve this.

Edited October 25, 2022 by DocWatts

[puporing]

When I think Tier 2 Yellow someone like Andrew Yang comes to mind, he refrains from demonization and polarization, but he gets demonized a lot by both sides.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, puporing said:

When I think Tier 2 Yellow someone like Andrew Yang comes to mind, he refrains from demonization and polarization, but he gets demonized a lot by both sides.

I don't have a very high opinion of Yang. Yang's policies are pretty mediocre when you dig into them.

But he is not radical, which is nice.

The problem with Yang is that he is too easily lured into just neoliberal centrism, similar to Obama.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Zedman]

I observed closely on my relatives and friends from school so many cases of people turning full 180 from being far right. It happened slowly and gradually as my eastern European country was better and better integrated into the EU. What happens now is I can see decline of that progress by the day. Why is that? Why did so many policies failed and why is popularity rapidly declining?

EU for example was a free reign for leftists. There was no substantial force to oppose immigration. But man did they fucked up. And can you name a reason other that doing too much too quickly?

My personal story is another example. I have come a long way and shifted myself from far right. But even after learning much about politics here and being aware of my biases I simply cannot call myself a leftist or a progressive. Like yeah, I understand, but no I cannot participate.

[Phil777]

@LordFall You do realize that your mind is powerful. What you focus on and what you envision has power. Look into manifestation teachings for more info on this. You can test this hypothesis. More key words: reality transurfing, law of assumption/attraction, Neville Goddard

This is where spiral dynamics reaches it's limits. If you look through it's lens, you will come up with horror scenarios like you just did. You basically believe that the worst possible scenario that could emerge with the new technologies will be our future. Why, why do you do this?

This isn't rational and based on your bisaes and selective attention. How about you stop misusing your mind and train it to come up with more holistic and promising scenarios? Of all possibilites you have chosen this. Why? Because you are looking through fear, you are looking through limited models of reality, because your mind is unconsciously running wild and you are not controlling it.

Let me tell you another reason why Leos 200 to 300 year time frame is not sensible: Until then we have reached the technological singurality with general prupose AI exceedeing human intelligence by a million fold.

How do you think spiral dynamics, that nice, little cozy, linear model holds up to predict what will happen at this point?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Phil777

[Phil777]

@Leo Gura I am not a Jackass, Leo.

Watch your tone. If you stood in front of me, you wouldn't talk to me like that. So be civil.

False equivalency: The current situation with meat consumption is more comparable to the US in the 19th century if we wanna draw the analogy to slavery. Why? because we have a significant vegan and animal welfare movement that is growing exponentially (this includes food tech like lab-grown meat).

And to see that slavery is wrong and not do something about it because it may take a long time or is very difficult is not what a tier 2 person would do. You would get creative and still clearly advocate it, but calibrated and tailored to the person you are talking to (culture, stage of development).

I am in favour of animal welfare and social security and promote it clearly and precisely yet I accept the current situation and do not let it affect me to the point where it sabotages my effectiveness and inner tranquility. I am not naive to think that it will happen overnight. But change only comes when we keep pushing for it.

EVs only became viable because Tesla pushed for it with determination, skill and excellence. Innovation needs a kickstart.

So to sit in your armchair, advocate complacency (300-year timeframe) and call yourself an advanced thinker in the process isn't doing any good. You are not doing any good with that. That's my claim.

If you don't care about that we can't make progress.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Phil777

[Phil777]

@RareGodzilla Very sensible take. I get where a lot of you are coming from, thanks for the encouragement!

"Die Linke" is not as developed and integrous as many think though. I would say, ironically the green party is the most stage green in our government haha. And they use a lot of stage yellow approaches.

They are for saving the environment, investing heavily in renewables and ecological preservation, yet are now buying gas from Qatar because we need it rn to meet our own "selfish" needs. No "idiot compassion" here.

Also they are adamant supporters of the Ukrainian war effort.

[Loving Radiance]

On 24.10.2022 at 0:15 PM, integral said:

Consider that there is no need to agree or disagree. Agreeing and disagreeing is a game and a distraction from actually getting anywhere.

True or False isnt happening anywhere. It’s just another perspective some guy is hallucinating.

Thank you

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 I don’t think you’ve really studied tier 2.

Mostly because your not acting in a way that a tier 2 person would so… it’s just interesting. No judging but. I just reviewed stage yellow and.. yeah

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thought Art

[Phil777]

@Thought Art And I don't think you've really studied tier 2

[Thought Art]

@Phil777 Yeah, I get that man. 

[Phil777]

@Thought Art I have seen all videos on spiral dynamics on Leo's channel including yellow and the taken-down turquoise, so I am familiar with the idea of tier 2, the concept aware, spiral-stage aware , and systems thinking, higher consciousness stages.

So tell me about the three major behaviors I do, that a stage yellow person wouldn't engage in? Just short bites are enough. I am genuinely interested in my blind spots and where I can grow more