What is the difference between the enlightened and insane? (with examples)

[Thought Art]

@Tyler Robinson This person with periodic mental instability… they can’t be enlightened. A person of great spiritual and psychological development should be stable. 
 

I am perhaps blending enlightenment, psychological development, ego development, wisdom, love, mental stability all into the word “enlightenment “

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@Tyler Robinson This person with periodic mental instability… they can’t be enlightened. A person of great spiritual and psychological development should be stable. 
 

I am perhaps blending enlightenment, psychological development, ego development, wisdom, love, mental stability all into the word “enlightenment “

I think of enlightenment as wisdom 

I don't see why a person with periodic mental instability can't achieve wisdom and awakening. 

[Thought Art]

@Tyler Robinson Maybe, I don’t know

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There is no such thing as a mind without content… Truth can manifest in an infinite number of appearances, and it certainly isn’t the case that enlightenment only is accessible to standard human brain function

4 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

 

A mind must be totally detached from its content for the truth to manifest. a completely free mind is an unlimited mind. a mind that thinks: I am god, is a limited mind.

[Tyler Robinson]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Tyler Robinson Maybe, I don’t know

I cannot imagine a person being completely insane. Impossible. 

 

[Thought Art]

@Tyler Robinson 99% of sane people don’t know what “Truth” or “Love” is. 
 

So, I doubt an insane person would.

I actually have a song I wrote that goes “but baby you, don’t know what love is and maybe you… don’t know what truth is… no you don’t, know you don’t knoow” 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Thought Art

[Tyler Robinson]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@Tyler Robinson 99% of sane people don’t know what “Truth” or “Love” is. 
 

So, I doubt an insane person would.

They can experience love though even if they weren't able to describe it. 

Insane people aren't much different from sane

Someone completely insane cannot survive since they would've know how to protect themselves causing them to die. 

For survival, you would need a basic level of sanity, something that even insane people possess.. 

[Thought Art]

@Tyler Robinson I am talking about Love with a capital L

[Carl-Richard]

It's a huge mistake to equate psychiatric diagnoses, which are supposed to help people with what society deems to be dysfunctional behavior, with Enlightenment. Ask yourself: does Sadhguru look like he needs help? Rupert Spira? Eckhart Tolle? The list goes on. People in insane asylums are not well. That is the one common feature across all the reasons for ending up in that place. 

Why is this a common question? Firstly, you can thank people who know nothing about schizophrenia, who say that in the right society, they would trained to be shamans. If they had ever read anything about cross-cultural studies on schizophrenia, they would know that these people are not treated kindly in any society. Robert Sapolsky has a good lecture on that.

Secondly, ego dissolution is not a joke. It's literally the end of your life. It feels exactly like going insane, but not in the usual way where you're confused and scared. There is absolute clarity and tranquility, but it's so much that it terrifies you. A person with schizophrenia has trouble with seeing things that are not there, or thinking thoughts that don't make sense. It's not that. You're seeing things exactly as they are, and everything makes perfect sense, but it's too much for you to handle. In a sense, it's actually much more serious than going insane, because at least when you're insane, you are someone. That doesn't mean you'll be dysfunctional though.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

A mind must be totally detached from its content for the truth to manifest. a completely free mind is an unlimited mind. a mind that thinks: I am god, is a limited mind.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. When there is no content, there is no experience whatsoever. But of course, attachment to some idea of being God is simply a belief sometimes correlated with profound states and in other cases almost identical to stage blue dogma structurally. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

When there is no content, there is no experience whatsoever.

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

 

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

 

I mean mental content, ideas, thoughts. The mind can be totally empty and there is still experience, you know that perfectly i think 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Loba said:

Have you ever been to one?  Talked to the people who are in these places?  Many of them have genuine spiritual awakenings or insight.  Almost as if they are simply stuck in the middle of fragmentation without direction.

Visited my dad.

 

Just now, Loba said:

Again - not true.  I mean - what would you suspect most shamans/mystics are "afflicted" with?  The very definition of schizophrenia is the defragmentation/fragmentation of the ego.  This madness is also a key part of the shamanic journey.

Shamans deploy various techniques to reach altered states of consciousness, and then they get insights which they share with the tribe. Schizophrenics live outside of the tribe.

I consider myself a mystic (in the technical meaning of the term), and my dad is not one.

 

3 minutes ago, Loba said:

Shamanism is a tradition that you can find popping up within most cultures in some form or another.  It is the dysfunctional ones, or the ones who were not in the right place at the right time that weren't deemed "fit".  Not that they didn't have the makings of it.  Again - reading up on schizophrenia is not the same thing as interacting with many people who have mental illness - of which I have at this point spoken to about a hundred within my three stays at the hospital.  I got their histories, their life stories, their spiritual experiences, dreams, hopes, etc.  Most of them, (I am not schizophrenic, but I have spoken with a lot.) you will find a deeply valid form of spiritual belief within many of them.  And much of it is about filtering through delusions, false beliefs and getting to the core of themselves.  Their process of thought and worldviews are deeply shamanic.

Why are they in the mental hospital and Sadhguru isn't?

 

5 minutes ago, Loba said:

It actually is that - in varying degrees.  The mentally ill experience both, due to the ego dissolution that accompanies psychosis.  It can fill you up, and also hollow you out.  A person can be filled with so much of it, that they just drop it - and you will see in these moments a healing, or a clarity within these people develop.

Psychosis may contain ego dissolution, but ego dissolution does not contain psychosis.

 

7 minutes ago, Loba said:

Honestly, my advice for people reading this thread is to volunteer with the mentally ill.  See them not as "other" - talk to them and you will find that you are dealing with kind souls.  People who's lives, experiences and spiritual interpretations are also valid.  if you actually sit down and talk to the people who live with these conditions you will gain more insight than from people who do not have much real world knowledge.  Reading books, asking for advice on the spiritual validity of the mentally ill won't give you the answers you are looking for, you need to go out and talk to people who have been there.  

Agree.

[Thought Art]

Often mystics, Taoist wizards and shamans can go through a phase of being ungrounded. However, they eventually overcome it. 
 

Being insane or ungrounded is contextual. Is it schizophrenia? Or did you just want experience a deep shift that need integrating? 

[Proserpina]

Those who aren’t chill they just may not realise their own power yet.  If you were placed into that position you are capable of overcoming, you have some spiritual capacity or you wouldn’t be in that position, was my understanding. So yet again, not so cut and dry.

 Souls take time to evolve. Young mystic souls are going to be disowned by their tribe.

[Carl-Richard]

37 minutes ago, Loba said:

Your dad has it - if you are comfortable with me asking, what is he dealing with?  Is he spiritual, and if so, do you see connections between his spirituality and those of ancient man?  It not, or if too personal then you don't need to answer these questions.

Bipolar 1. He has never talked to me about meditation or Eastern mysticism. He usually talks about business ideas, science or philosophy. My mom says he has always been a materialist atheist, and I don't think that has changed, although when I was little, he used to play Hare Krishna CDs in the car lol. He had a friend who was actually a shaman (who sadly passed away) who I've met a couple of times. His name is Arthur Sørensen. My dad got a big shaman drum from him, and one time, he played it over my head and I felt my body vibrating which was fun. 

I would say he is spiritually inclined, but he is not practicing any spirituality, and I don't think he ever has. He strikes me more like a Terrence McKenna than a Sadhguru (just without the weed), i.e. basically me before I found spirituality.

 

37 minutes ago, Loba said:

What do you think qualifies you as a mystic?  Initiation?  Spiritual experiences?  Not asking to disprove, just genuinely curious.  And why would your dad not be one?

I keep talking about it, but I spent the last 2 years trying to force myself out of a constant state of ego dissolution. My dad is not there. His mind always on. That said, he is probably one of the more empathetic and consciously attuned people I know. I have 50% of his genes after all.

 

37 minutes ago, Loba said:

The difference between the sane and insane is that they can work with the rules of this reality and the ones of the other side, the mystical realms and can go back and forth.  Those who are ill cannot do this, it overtakes them completely and they get stuck.

At one point when I was abusing weed and my life was falling apart, I experienced precursors to a psychotic break (rapid thoughts, loose associations, concentration and memory issues, slight perceptual changes), and it was the complete opposite of the mystical experience. Likewise, when my dad is in a manic state, it does not remind me of a mystical state.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

Often mystics, Taoist wizards and shamans can go through a phase of being ungrounded. However, they eventually overcome it. 

And what about the ones who don't overcome it?

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura What do you think? 
 

There’s a good book called “Opening the Dragon Gate” about a young teen being trained to be a Toasit wizard. They taught through intense practices to have him gain direct insights into their knowledge. When they killed him (but he was still alive) he went through an ungrounded couple of months. But the wizards knew it was happening because they too went through it. 
 

Opening the Dragon Gate: Making of a Modern Toaist Wizard

But, like… if someone becomes ungrounded and never makes it out well. Obviously you have an ungrounded person on your hands. I mean, what do you want me to say?

There’s no guarantees in this work. When you open your mind up… shit can get messy for awhile. Plus, mental filters, past experiences, etc can collide. 

There’s so many weird twisted spiritual ideologies out there right now. I know for me this is my first time being alive. So when, ego, magical thinking, spiritual new age BS ideas and radical open mindedness connect with a sense of desperation … shit can go wrong…

Edited October 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Twenty]

Its easy

.Give 3% of everything that you have to everyone and you wont ever be in a not 

shared reality or simply do not encounter those people who are not you/yours. The smaller you circles the better. Even if they force you you should have the people around you as a barrier or filter. But this didnt happen to me because I didnt tell everyone around me the 3% so you should be able to.    Keep your reality. In fact , it would be better if you tell everything rather than having your r destroyed. This is what ive known. I should tell evvvvvvveerything that I learn to my mom (wtf?) In order for it to be valid .this is the standard. (Wtf?) But thats what ive known. Because apparently my sc/wti sent something to them or all the inspo /wtvr to them and not me. So we are disconnected. I didnt know that I had to share everything to x&z thats a new thing/(a stupid thing) . 

[kamwalker]

I feel sorry for the kid in that video, I'm glad he was able to find something to ground himself. However he clearly states he felt mentally ill and still watched Leo's videos despite the disclaimers.

There is definitely a fine line you feel like you have to ride when contemplating life seriously. There have been plenty of moments I have questioned my sanity throughout this process. But I feel like that's actually normal and a part of growing through life. When you experience something new it can be scary and you have to adapt to it. New does not have to mean bad. People get solidified in a way of seeing the world and they never break out of that their whole life simply due to fear. 

Ultimately you just have to do whatever gives you a good life. I still have healthy family and friend relationships, a job that I mostly feel good about, try to live consciously. If I felt like my spiritual practice was causing me to lose my grip with reality to the point that I was sabotaging any of those things I would have to take a step back and re-evaluate. 

[Gesundheit2]

I think most of the times, it's both at the same time at the time it's occurring. Altered states often carry spiritual insights within them, but they're not necessarily always true or beneficial to follow. It's our job to seek a better clarity in order to be able to determine what is what for ourselves, which is a lot of work, and it can be hard to complete - depending on the degree and type of the experiences, without the proper guidance or settings. It's similar to the difference between waking up and cleaning up. You see this whole new side of reality that others can't see, but can you integrate it in your life? That's what differentiates the awake from the ill. But of course it's not so black and white. It's often a long process of constantly weeding out illusions, delusions, and confusions. Some ancient mainstream cultures used to differentiate between God's revelations and the possession with evil spirits. They didn't know it was both. It starts as possession and ends in God. But most people are too simple to see behind the scenes of what that realized person has gone through. They only want to see the end result based on their distorted fantasies of what a realized person should look like. I did not know I had been possessed for several years until after I "completed my journey". It's not like the spirits are a person with a mouth that can talk. They're energies that sit within your body and take on control instead of your original conscious self, which gets put on pause, so to speak. You lose control of yourself and they replace you, although I'm exactly not sure which one occurs first. It's hard to know, cuz they're both you, just different sides. Carl Jung called this unconscious force "the shadow". But at the end of the day, if you allow it to work through you, and if you somehow manage to understand it, it will purify you and then eventually let you go. That's my experience at least.