DieFree

Can stage yellow support the death penalty? 

289 posts in this topic

Problem is that if someone is wrongly convicted for a life sentence, they can be exonerated and released later. Can't do that for someone who was put to death.

Considering that in America at least the legal system is weaponized against the poor, and that two people of different socioeconomic backgrounds convicted of the same crime will have likely very different outcomes in the legal system, I can't in good conscience support the death penalty. 

If it has to be supported, then the death penalty should be reserved for crimes against humanity. Actions that lead to the deaths of thousands or millions of people (and imho this should include fossil fuel executives who lie and delay action on Climate Change, as well as gross negligence and abuse of power for people in position of authority that lead to deaths).

Edited by DocWatts

I'm writing a philosophy book! Check it out at : https://7provtruths.org/

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@Tyler Robinson

7 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

This take is purely based on selfishness and monetary considerations. 

Money is not important. Life is. 

If you thought every life is equally important then you wouldn't think this way. 

If your child was in prison, you certainly would never want your child to be put to death. 

You act like you're saving the society. By killing someone we get nothing. 

Do you realize that sometimes it's the prison guards and wardens abuse their power and rape these criminals. 

You're only judging them off the labels thrown at them. To think that someone is beyond healing and redemption is ludicrous. 

The criminal justice system is extremely corrupt as someone stated above. It's not so black and white as your stage Orange lenses make it out to be. 

So think twice before jumping on the bandwagon. When we show empathy, it boomerangs back to us. Show love and it will come back. Show judgement and hate and it will come back too.

You're not in the shoes of criminals. Don't be too quick to judge. Most people who apply for a job of a police officer or a jail warden are actually very narcissistic and power hungry people who use these jobs as badges of honor rather than duty. 

How many cops have slaughtered unarmed people in the line of duty and gotten away with it, simply because they're cops. Should we call them licensed criminals, because that's what they are? 

Understand that any criminal is always at the receiving end of our judgement/mercy. They can't decide anything for themselves because they are powerless to do so. We as a collective society get to decide the course of their life, and as such we are required to exercise caution. One mistake can put an innocent person to death. 

Also if we decide to kill a person, how are we different from the criminal? We also did what they did, the only difference being we used some moral justification for it. 

We should not have the right to abuse someone because they abused someone else. We don't know what systemic factors were at play behind their crimes. 

And why are you so hell bent on thinking that criminals are simply incapable of rehabilitation and redemption? Where is your scientific reasoning or analysis or data for this? When was it proved that criminals were beyond repair? Who has proved it? 

So much of what you say is a Stage Green shadow, speculative conjecture and hypothesizing with no real evidence to back up your claims. 

There aren't too many incidents of criminals attacking nurses or guards etc. Especially on prison grounds. The reason is simple. The prisoners are sent to solitary confinement and much worse conditions if they break rules. 

A prison is not a five star hotel. Prisoners are regularly reminded how awful they are, they barely get good food to eat, living in a 24/7 cell makes them mentally fragile and so they are easily inclined to follow jail rules and policies. In fact many times prisoners are raped, abused and tortured in the most inhumane ways because they have nobody to defend them. 

Victims are a part of Vulnerable groups. But so are prisoners. The level of prison abuse is simply unthinkable 

Imagine if someone was raised to be a  psychopath by their awful upbringing and then their fucked up psyche caused them to commit crimes and they were caught and punished and tortured, raped by prison guards and abused by the system. 

It's like the cycle of abuse never ends and there is zero chance to being a better person. 

Do you realize that they absolutely had zero chance at a better life, that they were first abused by society and then abused by the prison system with absolutely no escape from this abusive cycle? 

Why shouldn't they deserve a chance to improve? 

So does that mean that a rapist will always be a rapist, a thief will always remain a thief, a murderer will always be a murderer? 

Where is the space for healing and change? 

If you think that someone who is a psychopath is impossible to adapt, change or become a better person then your thinking is very moralistic,, Judgmental, stage Blue Hitlerian and very myopic. 

This is one of the reasons why I hate stage Blue. 

It's so purely moralistic unempathetic and dogmatic. 

 

   Are you @Pretty? You write just like her, long winded paragraphs when triggered and drama seeking. @Leo Gura or other mods, please check if this is true.

Edited by Danioover9000

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6 hours ago, King Merk said:

Take it from a guy who works in a psychiatric hospital…

You definitely can’t save everyone.

Some are so far gone that they’ll never be able to function normally in society.

The underlying question is, what do we do with those people?

There isn’t an easy answer. 

What does the human body do with cancer cells? Cancer Cells are cells that cannot be saved, so they are executed. Some things cannot be saved, its the nature of the game


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

Your ACTIONS REVEAL how you REALLY FEEL. Want TRUTH? Observe and ADMIT, do the OPPOSITE of what you usually do which is observe and DENY. - Razard86

Think about it.....Leo gave the best definition of the truth I ever heard...."The truth is what is..." so if that is the truth.... YOUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT ARE THE TRUTH!! It's what's happening....do you like what you see? Can you accept it? You are just a SENTIENT MIRROR, OBSERVING ITS REFLECTION..... can you accept what appears? -Razard86

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@Bobby_2021

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Death is by far, more merciful than rotting in a cell with dangerous psychopaths.

Death is liberation. And people don't know how hard prison is, especially for serious offenders. You will be picked on and tortured by other inmates depending in how serious your alleged crime is. Imagine going through this while being innocent. 

If I was convicted after being innocent I would choose death rather than prison. 

   I'm merciful, and would rather not let you rot in jail and instead sentence you to death if you committed very degenerate and heinous acts, and showing a strong will and desire to continue regardless. Also, it's cheaper to kill rather than to house and continue paying your living through taxpayer money. 

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8 hours ago, puporing said:

Most humans are only capable of doing the best they can to defend themselves and reduce harm overall which is their right to do. 

But most humans are not suited for or capable of the task of delivering "real justice":

Real justice is “served” through being made fully aware of what has occurred and the consequences of one’s actions exposed, through the internal realizations and radical transformation in consciousness that may occur from within the doer and everyone around by the “grace of God”, through cutting through falsehood and moving toward Truth, through a rebirth in consciousness.

"Real justice" leads everyone closer to God.

Yep no matter what system you create (law on the books) how the law is administered (law in action) is reflective of the awareness of the people involved. If I create a system with sufficient means to seek justice but the actors in the system are ridiculously selfish, then what will be administered is the opposite. This is why parenting is so important, there is no job more important when it comes to improving humanity than parenting. I don't care what laws you make, if that generation cannot seek to live up to those ideals that is not how it is going to function.


The same strength, the same level of desire it takes to change your life, is the same strength, the same level of desire it takes to end your life. Notice you are headed towards one or the other. - Razard86

Your ACTIONS REVEAL how you REALLY FEEL. Want TRUTH? Observe and ADMIT, do the OPPOSITE of what you usually do which is observe and DENY. - Razard86

Think about it.....Leo gave the best definition of the truth I ever heard...."The truth is what is..." so if that is the truth.... YOUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT ARE THE TRUTH!! It's what's happening....do you like what you see? Can you accept it? You are just a SENTIENT MIRROR, OBSERVING ITS REFLECTION..... can you accept what appears? -Razard86

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3 hours ago, at_anchor said:

Death penalty is actually more humane than jail time. It's the difference between quick and easy death and long and painful one.

That was the point I was trying to point out.  But the resources thing is an issue.   If we imprisoned everyone it would put more of a strain on us taxpayers too.  


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

This is why parenting is so important, there is no job more important when it comes to improving humanity than parenting. I don't care what laws you make, if that generation cannot seek to live up to those ideals that is not how it is going to function.

Yeah this is probably true, I think its safe to say that parenting is in the top 3 for sure [maybe number 1]. Statistics support this as well.

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

But the resources thing is an issue.

But how can you guys point to the finance / resource issue when all statistics are saying that death penalty is more expensive, only Leo's system would be more financially efficient, but there are other problems with his system, especially the corruption part.

Edited by zurew

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To everyone here who says that the death penalty is more humane than locking someone up in a cruel prison system that's rife with human rights abuses, would that still be your view if we had a far more humane prison system (like the ones that exist in the Scandinavian countries, for example)?


I'm writing a philosophy book! Check it out at : https://7provtruths.org/

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@zurew

5 hours ago, zurew said:

This is where your argument about valueing finance automatically fails. Collecting "enough evidence" is much much more expensive than life time prison.

This argument just doesn't work. If you would value human life and human beings getting harmed, then you wouldn't be okay with innocent people being killed. The trade there is just bad if you want to value human life.

Why would you risk making a system where a lot of innocent people will be harmed and will be killed, when most of the people who you would want to sentence to death, would be killed by military or police otherwise anyway, because those poeple are more than likely to run into situations where killing them would be justified under the current laws.

You are trying to optimize death penalty for a very very niche set of people, and at the same time by doing that you automatically open up the door to harm a lot of innocent people.

Do you really think, that most people who are in prison are people who you want to sentence to death? The answer is an obvious no, so this argument doesn't work either, because its not the case that by you start doing death penalty all or most prison facility construction will sees to exist, and again its more expensive to kill those people.

 

   When I said to gather evidence, I meant one or two pieces of evidence, hard and a witness, not hundreds of multiple pieces of evidence and multiple trials when one video clearly shows the guilty person eating and killing a bunch of people. Ideally just one piece of evidence that clearly shows the person has bad intent and wishes to continue hurting people.

   When it's very clear the 'innocent' psychopath, sociopath and degenerate committing the most disgusting acts of humanity ever, it necessitates that part of the prison system should function to remove such evil and devious individuals from society. Until you have had experienced the other end of evil, or have witnessed such acts, you will realize the need to execute such people.

   Yes, for a very niche set of people, that will harm other people in real life.

   Only for those who committed extremely harmful acts. Petty crimes I leave to your common sense, but I'm focused on the greatest evilest acts of humanity, that they want to continue doing.

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10 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Yep no matter what system you create (law on the books) how the law is administered (law in action) is reflective of the awareness of the people involved. If I create a system with sufficient means to seek justice but the actors in the system are ridiculously selfish, then what will be administered is the opposite. This is why parenting is so important, there is no job more important when it comes to improving humanity than parenting. I don't care what laws you make, if that generation cannot seek to live up to those ideals that is not how it is going to function.

That is so true. There is a big difference between law and justice. Many times innocent people get hurt by law the most, while it protects the vilest of all man. That's why it is important to have really good citizens for a good society, not laws that get enacted often times by some of the most cruel of all people in the service of businessmen and capitalists outside, interfering and corrupting the system.

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6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Ideally just one piece of evidence that clearly shows the person has bad intent and wishes to continue hurting people.

This is not realistic imo. Proving bad intent is like the most difficult thing to do in a court setting. There is no clear cut evidence that could be just used to immediately sentence anyone. Long investigation is needed no matter what to examine what happened, when it happened and how it happened, you need to listen to eye witnesses if there are some, you probably need dna evidence, or at the very least video evidence, but as time goes by video evidence will be less and less reliable because with deepfake you can create very fucking convincing stuff.

In most cases there are long ass investigations needed to prove someone guilty, thats just how the justice system works, if it would be easy to prove someone guilty, there would be even more corruption and error in the system.

 

Also if I go back to Leo's example with osama and Hitler, you wouldn't necessarily be able to point to clear cut cases where they directly did the killing. In most of the cases they planned murder indirectly, by using other people. In such complex cases, the proving trial will be incredibly complex.

 

Edited by zurew

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@zurew

5 hours ago, zurew said:

To be honest,  your "I am preteneding to be tier 2" posts are hilarious. Most of your posts are not saying anything tier 2 at all, and just repeating the same points over an over again like:

and at the end of the day you don't address any of the underlying issues or arguments.

Takes like this shows, that you haven't thought this topic through.

   I have a bias against arguing and debating. It's so obvious to me that I intuit that very few people can do serious harm to others will refuse to reform and wish to continue harming people. Such people need to go. Seriously, would you be willing to spend part of your income and taxpayer money, for 50 years straight, housing the most disgusting human beings on earth, or would you rather save 50 years of income and taxpayer money, by executing the 5-1% of the population that never will reform? It's a simple mathematics problem. Yes, it's tragic to kill a psychopathic cannibal whose called Bob and maybe has a family he constantly gaslights, but it's also tragic to let such a person loose and kill hundreds of women and children who will undergo more suffering and grief, having to live with the thoughts and knowledge that their loved one was killed in such horrific circumstances. Sorry, such people have to go.

   I am at tier 2 cognition, as I'm able to imagine these types of people living life, committing harms, and imagine the victims these people create. Most of you can't stomach such imaginations, and at the collective scale too, and I am willing to engage with the full ramifications of every action possible.

   

   The stage green limitations of this thread are fucking ridiculous.

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33 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Problem is that if someone is wrongly convicted for a life sentence, they can be exonerated and released later. Can't do that for someone who was put to death.

When later? When you convict someone for a life sentence, you destroy their face and life forever. Jails are places where people get beaten, often they don't get enough sleep and there are issues with nutrition as well. The person who walks in there often comes out handicapped, humiliated and utterly destroyed. Prisoners are at the mercy of people that are not so conscious and compassionate and don't want them to change for the better. Often times on the contrary, the ones running the prison want them to stay the same or get even worse. So the death sentence is way better for them in most cases if we're gonna be honest. If these people end up convicted, often times there is no hope for them in life and they are gonna be in a cell, praying to God to take their life. 

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1 minute ago, at_anchor said:

When later? When you convict someone for a life sentence, you destroy their face and life forever. Jails are places where people get beaten, often they don't get enough sleep and there are issues with nutrition as well. The person who walks in there often comes out handicapped, humiliated and utterly destroyed. Prisoners are at the mercy of people that are not so conscious and compassionate and don't want them to change for the better. Often times on the contrary, the ones running the prison want them to stay the same or get even worse. So the death sentence is way better for them in most cases if we're gonna be honest. If these people end up convicted, often times there is no hope for them in life and they are gonna be in a cell, praying to God to take their life. 

This is precisely why a lot of prisoners take their own lives in jail as soon as they get the chance.   

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Seriously, would you be willing to spend part of your income and taxpayer money, for 50 years straight, housing the most disgusting human beings on earth, or would you rather save 50 years of income and taxpayer money, by executing the 5-1% of the population that never will reform?

But thats the point, that you don't save anything, because death penalty is more expensive, or if you want to go with Leo's system, then you have to face with the reality of killing a lot of innocent people.

 

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

but it's also tragic to let such a person loose and kill hundreds of women and children who will undergo more suffering and grief,

You wouldn't let them lose, you would imprison them. Second if we are talking about people are mass murderers, as ive said before, most of them will be killed by police or the military, because there are laws already that let them kill a person if they violate those laws.

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@zurew

13 minutes ago, zurew said:

This is not realistic imo. Proving bad intent is like the most difficult thing to do in a court setting. There is no clear cut evidence that could be just used to immediately sentence anyone. Long investigation is needed no matter what to examine what happened, when it happened and how it happened, you need to listen to eye witnesses if there are some, you probably need dna evidence, or at the very least video evidence, but as time goes by video evidence will be less and less reliable because with deepfake you can create very fucking convincing stuff.

In most cases there are long ass investigations needed to prove someone guilty, thats just how the justice system works, if it would be easy to prove someone guilty, there would be even more corruption and error in the system.

 

Also if I go back to Leo's example with osama and Hitler, you wouldn't necessarily be able to point to clear cut cases where they directly did the killing. In most of the cases they planned murder indirectly, by using other people. In such complex cases, the proving trial will be incredibly complex.

 

   Okay, what would it take for you to concede to my point of view, if partially?

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9 minutes ago, zurew said:

But thats the point, that you don't save anything, because death penalty is more expensive, or if you want to go with Leo's system, then you have to face with the reality of killing a lot of innocent people.

Exactly what we need to start treating the law seriously and be careful not to convict innocent people. Otherwise we are gonna say ''life in prison'' or something like that as an euphemism for a death sentence.

But I don't know, I mean, just think about it. Prison is like hell on Earth. 

Edited by at_anchor

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5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Okay, what would it take for you to concede to my point of view, if partially?

If we would live in a society, where corruption would be almost at 0% and we would have a perfect or at least necessarily tech to convict someone , then I would go with death penalty, because in a society where the corruption level is really low and other pieces are relatively in place, it would be really really hard to argue how could we heal or repair those people, when they were born in almost perfect society.

1 minute ago, at_anchor said:

Well that's exactly what we need to start treating the law seriously and be careful not to convict innocent people. Otherwise we are gonna say ''life in prison'' or something like that as an euphemism for a death sentence. 

Being aware that there is room for error and there is room for corruption, we shouldn't go with Leo's system where there is less investigation and evidence needed to convinct someone.

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   On the arguments that the death penalty is expensive, may depend on the method of killing. Obviously, lethal injection is probably most expensive because you have to continuously mix and fill every time. Death by electrocution isn't as expensive, but you are spending Joles to kill a person. Death by firing squad is less expensive, but again you have to keep on making bullets for the executions. Hanging seems even less expensive, but the procedure has to be executed correctly or else it can get messy. Death by guillotine seems the least expensive, as long as the equipment is maintained correctly. Of course, other forms of torturous deaths are left as well, but it's too barbaric and savage to display to people. As an aside, no public viewing of these executions, either only the judge, juries and family of the victims, or straight execution. So, guillotine it is for me.

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3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

On the arguments that the death penalty is expensive, may depend on the method of killing.

The killing part is the least expensive part. Here is a list of things that makes it very expensive:

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

Quote

Why is the death penalty so expensive?

Legal costs: Almost all people who face the death penalty cannot afford their own attorney. The state must assign public defenders or court-appointed lawyers to represent them (the accepted practice is to assign two lawyers), and pay for the costs of the prosecution as well.

Pre-trial costs: Capital cases are far more complicated than non-capital cases and take longer to go to trial. Experts will probably be needed on forensic evidence, mental health, and the background and life history of the defendant. County taxpayers pick up the costs of added security and longer pre-trial detention.

Jury selection: Because of the need to question jurors thoroughly on their views about the death penalty, jury selection in capital cases is much more time consuming and expensive.

Trial: Death-penalty trials can last more than four times longer than non-capital trials, requiring juror and attorney compensation, in addition to court personnel and other related costs.

Incarceration: Most death rows involve solitary confinement in a special facility. These require more security and other accommodations as the prisoners are kept for 23 hours a day in their cells.

Appeals: To minimize mistakes, every prisoner is entitled to a series of appeals. The costs are borne at taxpayers’ expense. These appeals are essential because some inmates have come within hours of execution before evidence was uncovered proving their innocence.

 

Edited by zurew

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