Is the idea of "Chosen People" racist?

[RamBam]

Growing up I was taught that my people had a special role in history. We were elected to guide the world toward God. We were chosen to teach the world personal morality, proper political organization, and the immanence of divinity in creation. It was taught as a responsibility; I was held to a higher standard because I was a Jew. Never did I think of myself as being special or better than anyone else because of my ethnicity. Ok, admittedly I nurtured a certain pride in my peoples accomplishments. But I always believed that all people are equal before god.

But recently I have come across a different understanding of being "Gods Chosen," one that I believe is deeply flawed and racist. I have found some passages in the Talmud (one of our many books) that are just gross. They talk about the inferiority of all non-jews. Now that is not the essence of the rabbinical tradition.Judaism is about universal humanism and dignity for everyone who does not violate the basic moral law. But, being honest with myself, I have found this attitude in a lot of people. Its like they want to keep our special knowledge for themselves; while I believe it is meant to be shared with the world.

With all that said: is the idea of "Chosen People" racist? 

[vizual]

Racist is not the right word. I would use the word delusional. Yes, the idea of ‘chosen people’ based on ethnicity and religious beliefs is delusional

[RamBam]

@vizual When you look at the influence of the Jews on the world, is it really that delusional? More than half of the world believes in Abrahamic religion. Our prophecies have been fulfilled. Our people, once the weakest, has now all but concurred the world. 

All this coming from a jew who is not blind to our people's 'shortcomings'--to put it lightly. 

But it should at least make you wonder... Maybe they are....

[vizual]

18 minutes ago, RamBam said:

@vizual When you look at the influence of the Jews on the world, is it really that delusional? More than half of the world believes in Abrahamic religion. Our prophecies have been fulfilled. Our people, once the weakest, has now all but concurred the world. 

All this coming from a jew who is not blind to our people's 'shortcomings'--to put it lightly. 

But it should at least make you wonder... Maybe they are....

That’s just your perspective. Muslims will say they are the “chosen ones” by Allah. Christians will say they are the chosen ones because they believe in Christ. Christians think Jews are heretics, Jews think Christians are following a false prophet etc.

You can make a list of amazing achievments of historical people who identified as Jewish. But you can say the same about Christians and Muslims.

 

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, RamBam said:

@vizual When you look at the influence of the Jews on the world, is it really that delusional? More than half of the world believes in Abrahamic religion. Our prophecies have been fulfilled. Our people, once the weakest, has now all but concurred the world. 

All this coming from a jew who is not blind to our people's 'shortcomings'--to put it lightly. 

But it should at least make you wonder... Maybe they are....

Religion is something that most "religious" people have only on their ID cards. Make sure you don't mistake ID situation for reality. It is printed "Muslim" on my ID card, but in reality I'm not Muslim (tomorrow is Ramadan and I'm not gonna fast).

In practice, most religious people around me are pretty dumb and uneducated even about their own religion. Most of them don't take religion seriously, more like a fast-fix for their shadow problems. To them, religion is what the preacher says, and nothing else. And for many people, it's just a trend/theme/costume that you should wear without questioning. And *spolier*, even the preachers themselves are usually pretty dumb and have almost 0 self-awareness. It's the result of multi-generational dogma and brainwashing.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Raptorsin7]

@RamBam Is the Talmud referring to ethnic Jews, or religious Jews who live according to god?

I think all the main religions talk about superiority of their followers, muslims, christians etc because supposedly they live according to in alignment with god so in some sense it makes sense for them to consider themselves superior. 

I think the chosen people refers to anyone who brings themself into alignment with god and truth. But the religion has been corrupted and people think they are the chosen people based on their race or religious affiliation without actually understanding or living according to god.

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

It's an incredibly racist idea as it essentially gives the ''chosen peoples'' a green light to abuse (and in the Palestinian case, to evict) the unchosen peoples.

''We are the chosen people, God gave us this land, hence we have every right to bulldoze your home''.

 

[Lyubov]

It’s basically the whole idea of self centered bias on a larger scale that we address on this site and how we are working to see through this. We are working towards greater development that allows us to see a bigger and more nuanced picture and thus obtain a great wisdom. A lot of nationalities sort of hinder their development because of this. Any chest thumping society like this has to work through it before becoming more developed. Israel is a solid blue/orange society. Norway and Sweden for instance which are much more orange/green don’t sniff their own shit like this as much.

[K Ghoul]

@RamBam What are your thoughts on the Separation Wall in Bethlehem?

[RamBam]

@Raptorsin7 This is exactly how I see it. This is why I like the teachings of Messianic Judaism, because it recognizes the teachings of christ, and the unity of all humanity in the body of God; while also acknowledging the special role of the Jewish people. I see the role of the Jews as being a moral one, not an ethnic/political one. 

"Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him"

Unfortunately many of us don't see it this way...

[Consept]

If you take the definition of racism as a person or group of people who believe they are superior to another on the basis of race (which i do personally) then yes it definitely is rqacist. However I would say that every religion falls into this trap (as well as many different groups of people). If you notice every religion has derogatory words for non-believers, christians have heathens, muslim kuffar etc etc, its a built in thing because religions on some level know what it takes to keep people believing in them, which is to believe that they are the ones with the truth. 

You mentioned that Jewish people have lived out their prophecy and become a very popular religion, but really every religion says that even ones that are now defunct, so obviously someone had to be right. As they say history is written by the winners 

[RamBam]

@K Ghoul Obviously a very sensitive question... 

Level 1 social/political: 

Israel is a colonial state. The Jews can rationalize taking the land because they have been persecuted by others, but that is not a justification. That said, the world is a brutal place and I believe a degree Realpolitik is necessary to survive. Ultimately the only rational for a state to exist is its ability to uphold itself using force.

Every state was at one point colonial. America is stolen land from the Native-Americans, same with South America. The Africans in Hati are not indigenous to that island. European nations have been stealing land from each other for thousands of years. Before that Indo-Europeans conquered the indigenous people of Europe. Nations have always waged war against each other. Is Israel stolen land? of course, but so is every other country. Jews treat Muslims far better than the English treated Africans or then the Mongolians treated the Chinese. 

Level 2 esoteric/spiritual:

The Jews are trying to bring about their messiah, Mashiach  BenDavid. They want to fulfill certain prophecies... central is the establishment of Jewish state in Jerusalem. It is not, at its heart, a 'political' question. Peace is not the true goal. They want the third temple... When you understand the religious motivation, the political situation makes a lot more sense. 

[RamBam]

@Lyubov Yes, the Scandinavians have been very welcoming to our cousins

[Ulax]

I'd say its dehumanising rhetoric

[Yarco]

In-group preference (which yes, is synonymous with racism in this case) is a very powerful survival strategy. If Jews didn't separate themselves culturally from Canaanites, Phoenicians, Galatians in Biblical times... I would guess that they wouldn't exist today as a distinct racial group.

Only in a high-trust society like among Jews can you create something like the Chaverim. Basically free 24/7 roadside assistance provided for Jews, by Jews in New York. You need a group where everyone knows exactly what the rules are, and everyone plays by the same rules, to make that happen.

If you're part of the in-group, it's awesome. If you're not part of the group and don't have your own group, it sucks. Note that historically the only people calling to end racism are those in the weaker groups (although now it's also self-hating "woke" people.) If you're on the winning team, why would you ever want to willingly give up your advantage?

Europeans largely succeeded for a similar reason. They can work together, and they're great at colonizing and warfare. It's why America is what it is today. On the other side of the coin, if you're the group who has been colonized then they're oppressors and barbarians.

Is a disproportionate part of Joe Biden's cabinet Jewish? Yes. Is a disproportionate amount of the media and financial institutions owned/run by Jews? Yes. Is there a grand conspiracy behind it? Kinda, but not in some illuminati way. It's just in-group preference. It's the ultimate form of networking. You know another Jew who's right for a position, you recommend them. Or you hire a Jew over someone else either consciously or subconsciously because they're most like you, you're on the same page, you understand each other and you have the same common goals. Discrimination and looking out for your chosen people is how your in-group stays strong. Historically, Jews are always the minorities and outsiders in whatever larger culture they're in, so how can you blame them?

Are most Nobel prize winners Jewish? Yes. Do Jews have some of the highest IQs in the world? Yes. Does that make them intellectually superior to most other races? Probably. Of course there are other factors like economic status, nutrition, etc that hold back some others too.

As long as a group isn't using their feeling of superiority or feelings that they're the "chosen ones" as justification for violence or oppressing others, then I don't really care. Let Jews think they're superior, let Latinos think they're superior (viva la raza), let Black Panthers think they're superior. It's a natural thing for all groups of people to do. When you force people to de-segregate and see everyone as equal, and live in a society with conflicting belief systems, that might cause more violence to erupt than if people were just kept separate and only voluntarily associated.

Will feminists really stop and be satisfied when women are equal to men, or will they try to go further? Will BLM stop and be satisfied when black people are equal, or will they try to go further? Even the groups calling for equality have a secret sense of superiority behind-the-scenes. They will only play the equality card until the scales tip. Then any group would naturally get greedy and try to take more.
When white people become a minority in the US (projected to happen by 2050,) do you think other previously-marginalized groups will draw on their historical experience and have empathy for them, or just oppress them like every other more powerful group has historically done once they get in power? They'll find a way to dehumanize white people because of how they were treated by white people in the past, and justify future bad behavior against them. It's human nature.

All else being equal, if you had to pick a side to go to war on... would you rather pick the US side with people from a wide range of different races and backgrounds, religions, sexual orientations, etc? Or the Chinese army where everyone is the same race, religion, values, background/upbringing, etc? What one do you think would be the more cohesive group in battle? In business? As a neighborhood to live in?

5 hours ago, vizual said:

That’s just your perspective. Muslims will say they are the “chosen ones” by Allah. Christians will say they are the chosen ones because they believe in Christ. Christians think Jews are heretics, Jews think Christians are following a false prophet etc.

I don't know what Islam thinks, but that's definitely not what Christianity at large thinks. Most Christian denominations believe that Jews are God's chosen people and get into heaven on that alone, while Christians have to work for it. Most Christian denominations are also pro-Israel.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Yarco

[vizual]

@Yarco  No, Christians think that Jesus = God. They surely won't think that people that reject Jesus are in any shape or form are 'the chosen ones'.

And no, Christians don't think that they have to work to get into heaven (Ephesians 2:8 ).

Edited April 1, 2022 by vizual

[nuwu]

16 minutes ago, Yarco said:

self-hating "woke" people

only self-hate if you see awareness of our own bias as "hate", but we really are getting relativistically closer to truth and G-d

18 minutes ago, Yarco said:

If you're part of the in-group, it's awesome. If you're not part of the group and don't have your own group, it sucks.

rember who's part of winning "human race" who mercilessly exploits livestocks, plants and earth resource for their own interests? or who built the computer and smart-phones you are using right now, with their hands or minds? there isn't such thing as "the jews" to begin with, all entities have their own perspective and understandings, while religious structures have their own survival requirements and limitations. as such, ego doesn't get to win this game

22 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Is a disproportionate part of Joe Biden's cabinet Jewish? Yes. Is a disproportionate amount of the media and financial institutions owned/run by Jews?

would you be bother by it if those institutions were run by white people? no. so why double standard

23 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Is there a grand conspiracy behind it? Kinda

G-d makes everything come together, that's only a conspiracy within ego narratives

27 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Will feminists really stop and be satisfied when women are equal to men, or will they try to go further? Will BLM stop and be satisfied when black people are equal, or will they try to go further?

technically not a bad argument, but you can say this to every possible understandings of self-bias that come out of anything. balance is desired, but hard to achieve considering the complex fractal of pressures at play, which sometimes leads to polarization

[Preety_India]

It's not a bad thing. It could be a survival strategy or a way to consciously separate themselves from from other groups so that they don't get mixed up or influenced. It can lead to Elitism but this is something to be expected if you genuinely believed you had superior ideas. 

Also, it has a sense of meaning and purpose to it because if everyone was chosen,then it wouldn't make sense to have this theory in the first place as to why they are rewarded for being aligned with God as opposed to those who aren't. Then why will they do something different if the outcome is going to be the same for all? 

Is it racist? Not exactly because it's not based on race and I wouldn't call it discriminatory as long as it doesn't hurt the survival of other groups. 

You have to look at the "meaning" aspect of it rather than the racist aspect of it. 

[Yarco]

1 hour ago, vizual said:

@Yarco  No, Christians think that Jesus = God. They surely won't think that people that reject Jesus are in any shape or form are 'the chosen ones'.

It's Catholic doctrine that Jews go to heaven. 

Quote

"With its Declaration "Nostra aetate" (No.4) the Church unequivocally professes, within a new theological framework, the Jewish roots of Christianity. While affirming salvation through an explicit or even implicit faith in Christ, the Church does not question the continued love of God for the chosen people of Israel."

"For Jewish-Christian dialogue in the first instance God’s covenant with Abraham proves to be constitutive, as he is not only the father of Israel but also the father of the faith of Christians. In this covenant community it should be evident for Christians that the covenant that God concluded with Israel has never been revoked but remains valid on the basis of God’s unfailing faithfulness to his people, and consequently the New Covenant which Christians believe in can only be understood as the affirmation and fulfilment of the Old. Christians are therefore also convinced that through the New Covenant the Abrahamic covenant has obtained that universality for all peoples which was originally intended in the call of Abram (cf. Gen 12:1-3). This recourse to the Abrahamic covenant is so essentially constitutive of the Christian faith that the Church without Israel would be in danger of losing its locus in the history of salvation. "

Romans 11:29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.

http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo-crre/documenti-della-commissione/en.html

The Catholic Church explicitly rejects replacement theory or supersessionism -- the idea that previous promises or commitments God made to Jews no longer apply because they don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah or because they killed him.

Quote

"True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ."

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[itachi uchiha]

@RamBam when will the messiha come according to jewish prophecies.do u know a particular date.like within 10 years or so.