What is the difference between awakening and mentally illness?

[Matthew85]

@sausagehead To me depersonalization is a feeling of being detached or unable to feel emotions. As my awareness expanded I felt more not less. More and more people become you in another body or just another extension of you. I prefer the gradual expansion of consciousness that comes from spiritual practices, rather than being blasted into infinity. I also feel I am better able to integrate and interpret my experience. The more I awaken, the more connected I feel to everything, not less. If you are experiencing DPDR, I would recommend more spiritual and grounding practices. See if that helps. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Matthew85

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Terell Kirby said:

@Leo Gura interested in your theory here: once the God-realized state is obtained, does it remain throughout all subsequent states of consciousness? Be it alien, non material, quasi-mystical, human, etc?

There is no such thing as a single God-realized state. There can be many kinds and degrees of them, and they can come and go or stick around. Lots more variation exists here than we are commonly told. There is no good map of all these possibilities.

[Carl-Richard]

I've had derealization/depersonalization while sober induced by stress, while calm, and induced by drugs, and I've also had sober awakening experiences, and they're not the same.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Matthew85 said:

@Loving Radiance Interesting question. In my experience awakening has been the opposite of depersonalization. More and more you see everything as you. It's not a loss of personal identity but an expansion of your sense of self. 

This.

The whole teaching of "no-self" is problematic in this regard. The mind can get so stuck on the notion of no-self that it becomes blind to the fact that all is the God Self.

The correct teaching is not no-self, it is God Self. Even though, of course, God has no self.

I feel that neo-Advaita and Buddhist style teachings can get people stuck in no-self.

[BipolarGrowth]

The difference is illness gives you problems and awakening is the dissolution of problems. 

[Nadosa]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This.

The whole teaching of "no-self" is problematic in this regard. The mind can get so stuck on the notion of no-self that it becomes blind to the fact that all is the God Self.

The correct teaching is not no-self, it is God Self. Even though, of course, God has no self.

I feel that neo-Advaita and Buddhist style teachings can get people stuck in no-self.

Not if the practises are done properly. No-self = there is only you.

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Nadosa said:

Not if the practises are done properly. No-self = there is only you.

But they are all too often not done "properly". Since the student has no frame of reference for what is proper.

[Carl-Richard]

53 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

The difference is illness gives you problems and awakening is the dissolution of problems. 

The difference is that DR/DP doesn't make me go "Holy fuck! Me and the universe are one!" It's more like "wait... this is weird."

[Nadosa]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But they are all too often not done "properly". Since the student has no frame of reference for what is proper.

So what's the solution? I guess Psychedelics?

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

The difference is that DR/DP doesn't make me go "Holy fuck! Me and the universe are one!" It's more like "wait... this is weird."

This follows exactly what I said as well. In one quote, no problems while the other certainly sounds like assessing weirdness as an issue. 

[Carl-Richard]

12 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This follows exactly what I said as well. In one quote, no problems while the other certainly sounds like assessing weirdness as an issue. 

Sure. I've also had what you can call issues from experiencing awakening (or ego's reaction to it). It's still qualitatively different from the experience of DP/DR and ego's reaction to it.

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

The difference is that DR/DP doesn't make me go "Holy fuck! Me and the universe are one!" It's more like "wait... this is weird."

? ? 

[Khan 0]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This.

The whole teaching of "no-self" is problematic in this regard. The mind can get so stuck on the notion of no-self that it becomes blind to the fact that all is the God Self.

The correct teaching is not no-self, it is God Self. Even though, of course, God has no self.

I feel that neo-Advaita and Buddhist style teachings can get people stuck in no-self.

Just loving anything as you or whatever happens to you. That brings no self. That's all. And that's God realization or being nothing. 

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Nadosa said:

So what's the solution? I guess Psychedelics?

That would certainly help give the student a frame of reference for what consciousness is capable of.

[Gesundheit2]

Awakening is not the same as mental illness. They are two very distinct things, even though they can co-exist and overlap.
As well, awakening is not the same as spirituality.  There are probably countless types and subtypes of awakenings that you can experience. Basically, any insight you have is an awakening. In that sense, spirituality is only a very specific type of awakening, which is why it's called spiritual awakening. You awaken to the spiritual realm, as in you realize the limitations of materialism in explaining reality, and you start seeing potential in different ways of thinking. But you don't turn into a spirit or a ghost, so you're still living in the material world with everyone else. You can even gain insights into mental conditions through awakening if you happen to experience both, and that's not very uncommon in my experience.

The problem with mental illnesses is that they tend to send you to a different realm than this realm, but you're still somehow partially stuck in this realm, so you're split between two or more realms. And at least one of these realms is usually a rabbit hole that takes up most of one's faculties so that it appears to the person experiencing it as very significant and relevant and worth exploring, while draining them and dragging them down out of the material realm.
The difference between altered states of consciousness and mental conditions is that the altered states are often temporary and recovery is the rule, while the opposite is the case with mental conditions. The thing is that both of them are induced by applying stress on the brain and they can look very similar sometimes, but mentally ill people seem to be more sensitive to stress than the rest, this is probably mostly genetic and childhood-trauma-related.

Now let's consider spiritual people who claim that telepathic abilities are real. This is clearly delusional. And the reason is that they fail to prove their claims in the material realm, there is dissonance. It's irrelevant what they feel or experience, or think they experience. The truth is that they're confused and unable to distinguish between their thoughts and reality. A person who believes in telepathy is often stuck on this belief, and you can't really reason with them. The same with pretty much every other belief/delusion. And the catch is that those who are actually confused often don't recognize that they're confused, even though they might have realized it at some point. The confusion is so deep and inherent, it doesn't distinguish between clarity and confusion. This is not the case with awakening, even though it might be involved in it at some point.

But let's also consider this, a nerdy math scientist who believes that mathematics is really significant and can somehow explain the universe. This is also delusional. Such people are often obsessive and compulsive, they don't have any breaks set on their minds, which is unhealthy according to mental health standards, and they don't really understand the big picture of what they're doing. They experience eureka and aha moments, and can even experience a Satori and mental orgasms from solving a long-stuck mathematical equation. But society feeds this kind of delusions because it feeds off of it because it proved to create material/survival value. The movie called A Beautiful Mind might be a good illustration of this point. It challenges the boundaries society has set between genius and mentally ill, and it shows how the only criteria for health in today's world is productivity.

[TheAlchemist]

One of the only other "teachers" I have found that very clearly talk about the Absolute Consciousness realization aspect of all this in addition to Leo is Peter Francis Dziuban.

I mean the perspective that you are Consciousness/God/Infinity/All right here right now and nothing can be outside of you. 

He has a phenomenal book "Consciousness Is All - The Magnificent Truth of What You Are"

It's such a beautiful book. The audiobook version is almost 40 hours jam packed with direct pointers towards what Consciousness and Infinity is, and how this right here is that. Just getting started with it already getting mind-blown, highly recommended!

It is really causing me to become much more curious about what Leo is pointing to here and helping me really orient and turn towards towards the essential core of the "matter" 

Edited January 18, 2022 by TheAlchemist

[Loving Radiance]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Depersonalization is simply not God-realization/awakening.

Depersonalization is some other kind of lesser state of consciousness. There can be thousands of alien and weird states of consciousness, some of them quasi-mystical, but not really the same as full on God-consciousness.

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

18 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@Loving Radiance Interesting question. In my experience awakening has been the opposite of depersonalization. More and more you see everything as you. It's not a loss of personal identity but an expansion of your sense of self. 

This.

The whole teaching of "no-self" is problematic in this regard. The mind can get so stuck on the notion of no-self that it becomes blind to the fact that all is the God Self.

The correct teaching is not no-self, it is God Self. Even though, of course, God has no self.

I feel that neo-Advaita and Buddhist style teachings can get people stuck in no-self.

Thanks Leo. It feels like a kind of expanded state, but it's twisted animalistic/alien and not clear.

In regards to what you wrote I can describe my experience of these DP/DR episodes: I get conscious of the story that the body is not separate from inanimate matter. The whole world including me as LR is seen through the lens of being not real. I believe that my mind constructs everything. I feel the identity being smaller as in close to ego-death. Then there is increased awareness of egoic movement and how thoughts arise which can be attached to. There is in general increased shakiness of the body. IME, I had no focus on being consciousness beyond the mind. There was no focus on no-mind as the mind was actively constructing stories to make sense of the world.

 

18 hours ago, Nadosa said:

Depersonalization/Derealization is simply kind of a protect-mechanism by the brain. I have experienced it both severely in 2017. Cure = seeing that it is not smth "one" "has" but is just what is in this moment = meaning you + some thoughts which backfire the panic loop + feeling the goodness of being. Observe the loop and see the magic, you literally "move into" reality within no time. Exercise is helpful too. I have actually had such a good time meditating being severely derealized/depersonalized, I felt so safe just being with it, emotions were back and it was just what it was. Consciousness experiencing itself.

Now it is merely a thought, same as mental illness. Made out of consciousness. 

Really good description, I experience that too.

What do you mean with observing? Do you mean observing the dynamic of attaching to thought which creates panic (which's then also felt in the body)?

 

18 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@Loving Radiance Interesting question. In my experience awakening has been the opposite of depersonalization. More and more you see everything as you. It's not a loss of personal identity but an expansion of your sense of self. 

That's interesting, during these episodes I feel as if being just a small gear in the machine.

17 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@sausagehead To me depersonalization is a feeling of being detached or unable to feel emotions. As my awareness expanded I felt more not less. More and more people become you in another body or just another extension of you. I prefer the gradual expansion of consciousness that comes from spiritual practices, rather than being blasted into infinity. I also feel I am better able to integrate and interpret my experience. The more I awaken, the more connected I feel to everything, not less. If you are experiencing DPDR, I would recommend more spiritual and grounding practices. See if that helps. 

Thanks!

 

17 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I've had derealization/depersonalization while sober induced by stress, while calm, and induced by drugs, and I've also had sober awakening experiences, and they're not the same.

16 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

The difference is illness gives you problems and awakening is the dissolution of problems. 

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

The difference is that DR/DP doesn't make me go "Holy fuck! Me and the universe are one!" It's more like "wait... this is weird."

This makes it super clear. It's for me the belief of being not separate from the material universe and feeling this state to be twisted af.

 

12 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Awakening is not the same as mental illness. They are two very distinct things, even though they can co-exist and overlap.
As well, awakening is not the same as spirituality.  There are probably countless types and subtypes of awakenings that you can experience. Basically, any insight you have is an awakening. In that sense, spirituality is only a very specific type of awakening, which is why it's called spiritual awakening. You awaken to the spiritual realm, as in you realize the limitations of materialism in explaining reality, and you start seeing potential in different ways of thinking. But you don't turn into a spirit or a ghost, so you're still living in the material world with everyone else. You can even gain insights into mental conditions through awakening if you happen to experience both, and that's not very uncommon in my experience.The problem with mental illnesses is that they tend to send you to a different realm than this realm, but you're still somehow partially stuck in this realm, so you're split between two or more realms. And at least one of these realms is usually a rabbit hole that takes up most of one's faculties so that it appears to the person experiencing it as very significant and relevant and worth exploring, while draining them and dragging them down out of the material realm.

The "split betweeen realms" is a good lens to look at DPDR.

Quote

The difference between altered states of consciousness and mental conditions is that the altered states are often temporary and recovery is the rule, while the opposite is the case with mental conditions. The thing is that both of them are induced by applying stress on the brain and they can look very similar sometimes, but mentally ill people seem to be more sensitive to stress than the rest, this is probably mostly genetic and childhood-trauma-related.

The stress sensitivity of mentally ill people is also something I notice. My mind happens to come into a twisted mushroom mode for a second when I would feel insecure, anxious or a sudden surprise. Good that I wrote down when it started.

Quote

Now let's consider spiritual people who claim that telepathic abilities are real. This is clearly delusional. And the reason is that they fail to prove their claims in the material realm, there is dissonance. It's irrelevant what they feel or experience, or think they experience. The truth is that they're confused and unable to distinguish between their thoughts and reality. A person who believes in telepathy is often stuck on this belief, and you can't really reason with them. The same with pretty much every other belief/delusion. And the catch is that those who are actually confused often don't recognize that they're confused, even though they might have realized it at some point. The confusion is so deep and inherent, it doesn't distinguish between clarity and confusion. This is not the case with awakening, even though it might be involved in it at some point.

I'm so grateful that I still can see when I'm confused in a shroomy way.

All in all, this is a well written and thought-out post. Thanks!

 

10 hours ago, TheAlchemist said:

One of the only other "teachers" I have found that very clearly talk about the Absolute Consciousness realization aspect of all this in addition to Leo is Peter Francis Dziuban.

I mean the perspective that you are Consciousness/God/Infinity/All right here right now and nothing can be outside of you. 

He has a phenomenal book "Consciousness Is All - The Magnificent Truth of What You Are"

It's such a beautiful book. The audiobook version is almost 40 hours jam packed with direct pointers towards what Consciousness and Infinity is, and how this right here is that. Just getting started with it already getting mind-blown, highly recommended!

It is really causing me to become much more curious about what Leo is pointing to here and helping me really orient and turn towards towards the essential core of the "matter" 

I think your post is more geared towards what Leo wrote with the neo-Advaita & Buddhist no-mind approach and not towards the mental illness side of this thread amirite?

[TheAlchemist]

13 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

I think your post is more geared towards what Leo wrote with the neo-Advaita & Buddhist no-mind approach and not towards the mental illness side of this thread amirite?

Yes. Could have quoted that to make it more clear. Also, I tend to derail some threads sometimes from the original topic when I get inspired by something in the replies, and I realize it's usually not constructive to do that. Important discussion you initiated here for sure!

Edited January 18, 2022 by TheAlchemist

[Mahyar]

I had this issue and unfortunately I had no one to help me. So, I stayed away from any mind altering substance to find the sober state. I also started pushing myself back to living the mundane and forget about all the awakening and enlightenment stuff. But I did 2 things in particular that helped me significantly:

1. Angelic Magick rituals - You might argue about that, and I understand where you are coming from. But the point is that, in the state of DP/DR you are really helpless. So, whatever that can help you get out of that state is a bonus. Though, the whole occult stuff, as powerful and useful they are, they carry a high potential to distract you from life and growth. You need to be careful and wise how you approach occult.
2. I read the book : Exit the dream by Lucy Bain. It helped me to gain insight into what actually this condition is, what are the possible causes and what can I do to fix it.

 

DP/DR in my opinion is a really silly ego game. I'm saying silly because the distance between your dissociated state and mindful and present state is only seconds but there is this chronic illusion that you are worlds away from a healthy state. But it is really frustrating because it's such a low state of consciousness that I can't imagine anything below that. For those who are on spiritual path, it probably happens after a glimpse of infinity and truth. The difference between those who get trapped with DP/DR is that those who don't they embrace the infinite ocean while the boundaries start to break, but those with DP/DR resist it and it feels rather traumatizing than liberating. After all, dissociation is a response to trauma or pain. 

 

Also, another thing I found was helpful in my escaping from it was that I stopped seeking the reason for why it happened. I was stuck in a cycle of obsessively looking back and reviewing the past few months to find the point before I dissociated, just to reboot into that state, but it never worked for me. The moment I decided to let go of the past and look forward, I started witnessing progress. 

[Loving Radiance]

On 2.2.2022 at 10:56 AM, Mahyar said:

DP/DR in my opinion is a really silly ego game. I'm saying silly because the distance between your dissociated state and mindful and present state is only seconds but there is this chronic illusion that you are worlds away from a healthy state. But it is really frustrating because it's such a low state of consciousness that I can't imagine anything below that. For those who are on spiritual path, it probably happens after a glimpse of infinity and truth. The difference between those who get trapped with DP/DR is that those who don't they embrace the infinite ocean while the boundaries start to break, but those with DP/DR resist it and it feels rather traumatizing than liberating. After all, dissociation is a response to trauma or pain. 

Also, another thing I found was helpful in my escaping from it was that I stopped seeking the reason for why it happened. I was stuck in a cycle of obsessively looking back and reviewing the past few months to find the point before I dissociated, just to reboot into that state, but it never worked for me. The moment I decided to let go of the past and look forward, I started witnessing progress.

What I now see is that it's triggered from thought and recontextualizes all perception. It's still story. And it was arrived at by forceful energy of intellectually deconstructing the very basis what is thought of as real. It's in duality.

I don't agree with the surrendering to it instead of resisting. Wait, did I ever surrender to the episodes? Yeah, and it was still twisted. It didn't feel good.

Looking for reasons in the past for why it happens in order to undo and become normal again never occured to me.