Stage Orange vs Stage Green: Did Dave Chappelle go to far?

[Raze]

 

Netflix recently hosted a comedy special from comedian Dave Chappelle called 'The Closer'. You can watch it yourself.

Many supported it and found it humorous, however some criticized it as being transphobic and promoting hate speech and violence.

LGBT rights organization GLAAD, and the national black justice coalition, both denounced the special

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/dave-chappelle-netflix-special-glaad-national-black-justice-coalition-1235082813/

Quote

“With 2021 on track to be the deadliest year on record for transgender people in the United States — the majority of whom are Black transgender people — Netflix should know better,” NBJC executive director David Johns said in a statement. “Perpetuating transphobia perpetuates violence. Netflix should immediately pull ‘The Closer’ from its platform and directly apologize to the transgender community.”

Netflix's leadership had a meeting about it, but then suspended three employees, one of whom was trans for trying to enter it without permission

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dave-chappelle-netflix-suspends-trans-employee-1235086394/

Netflix's co-CEO responded, and defended hosting the stand up special

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dave-chappelle-stand-up-netflix-controversy-1235086299/

Quote

Directors/Estaff:

I wanted to follow up on The Closer - Dave Chappelle’s latest special - as several of you have reached out following QBR asking what to say to your teams. It never feels good when people are hurting, especially our colleagues, so I wanted to give you some additional context. You should also be aware that some talent may join third parties in asking us to remove the show in the coming days, which we are not going to do.

Chappelle is one of the most popular stand-up comedians today, and we have a long standing deal with him. His last special, Sticks & Stones, also controversial, is our most watched, stickiest, and most award winning stand-up special to date. As with our other talent, we work hard to support their creative freedom - even though this means there will always be content on Netflix some people believe is harmful, like Cuties, 365 Days, 13 Reasons Why, or My Unorthodox Life.

Several of you have also asked where we draw the line on hate. We don’t allow titles on Netflix that are designed to incite hate or violence, and we don’t believe The Closer crosses that line. I recognize, however, that distinguishing between commentary and harm is hard, especially with stand-up comedy which exists to push boundaries. Some people find the art of stand-up to be mean-spirited but our members enjoy it, and it’s an important part of our content offering.

In terms of our commitment to inclusion, we’re working hard to ensure more people see their lives reflected on screen and that under-represented communities are not defined by the single story. So we’re proud of titles like Sex Education, Young Royals, Control Z and Disclosure. Externally, particularly in stand-up comedy, artistic freedom is obviously a very different standard of speech than we allow internally as the goals are different: entertaining people versus maintaining a respectful, productive workplace.

Today’s conversation on Entertain the World was timely. These are hard and uncomfortable issues. We all bring different values and perspectives so thank you for being part of the conversation as it’s important we’re clear about our operating principles.

-Ted

Netflix employees wanting to protest the decision to host the special planned a walkout, however Netflix fired one of the trans organizers for allegedly leaking company information

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/netflix-fires-employee-sharing-confidential-information-amid-chappelle-uproar-n1281672

A showrunner at one of Netflix's shows called 'Dear White People' said they will boycott netflix for hosting the special

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/netflix-fires-employee-sharing-confidential-information-amid-chappelle-uproar-n1281672

 

Later the Netflix co-CEO apologized for defending the special, but continues to refuse for netflix to stop hosting it

https://www.wsj.com/articles/netflix-co-ceo-says-he-screwed-up-when-defending-dave-chappelle-special-11634696007

The netflix trans employees and their allies released a list of demands ahead of their walk out

https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/18/22733098/netflix-trans-employees-demands-dave-chappelle-walkout

Quote

Over the past few weeks, it has become clear that there are many places where Netflix

still has to grow when it comes to content relating to the trans and non-binary

community. The Trans* Employee Resource Group, which includes trans and

non-binary colleagues as well as our numerous allies, wants Netflix to immediately take

the steps below to begin to repair the relationship between the Company, our

colleagues, and our audience. Specifically, we want the Company to adopt measures

in the areas of Content Investment, Employee Relations and Safety, and Harm

Reduction, all of which are necessary to avoid future instances of platforming

transphobia and hate speech, and to account for the harm we have caused and will

continue to cause until the below measures are put in place.

Content Investment

Create a new fund to specifically develop trans and non-binary talent

○ This fund should support both above-the-line (ATL) and below-the-line

(BTL) talent;

○ This fund should exist in addition to the existing Creative Equity Fund;

Increase investment in trans and non-binary content on Netflix comparable to

our total investment in transphobic content, including marketing and

promotion;

Invest in multiple trans creators to make both scripted and unscripted programs

across genres;

Revise internal processes on commissioning and releasing potential harmful

(“sensitive”) content, including but not limited to involving parties who are a

part of the subject community and can speak to potential harm, or consulting

with 3rd party experts/vendors;

Increase the ERG role in conversations around potentially harmful content and

ensure we have best in class regional support on complicated intersectional

diversity issues;

Hire trans and non-binary content executives, especially BIPOC, in leading

positions;

Employee Relations and Safety

Recruit trans people, especially BIPOC, for leadership roles in the company

(Director, VP, etc.) and promote an inclusive environment for them;

Allow employees to remove themselves from previous company promotional

content (e.g. allyship and diversity videos, etc.);

Eliminate references/imagery of transphobic titles or talent inside of the

workplace, including but not limited to murals, posters, room names, swag;

Harm Reduction

Acknowledge the harm and Netflix’s responsibility for this harm from

transphobic content, and in particular harm to the Black trans community;

Add a disclaimer before transphobic titles that specifically flag transphobic

language, misogyny, homophobia, hate speech, etc. as required;

Boost promotion for Disclosure and other trans-affirming titles in the platform;

Suggest trans-affirming content alongside and after content flagged as

anti-trans.

We are employees, but we are members, too. We believe that this Company can and

must do better in our quest to entertain the world, and that the way forward must

include more diverse voices in order to avoid causing more harm. The Trans* ERG

looks forward to working with the Company to make this a better, more entertaining

place for us all.

Sincerely-

Trans* Netflix

Some scenes from the walk-out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efkY2QRf_zs

To me this is a clash between stage orange ideals vs stage green ideals. Stage orange views the special as successful because of it's popularity, and doesn't feel accountable to censor it because they don't believe comedy can lead to real world harm and everyone can be made fun of. The stage green view is that the successful is harmful because it's attacking a marginalized group.

Did you watch the special? Do you think it went too far?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Raze

[Willie]

Humor is subjective. So “too far” is as well. I’m not going to watch it, but I have little doubt I’d be fine with it if I did. If someone else finds it offensive, that’s fine as well.

[PurpleTree]

I haven't seen it yet

but from what i've seen it's not too far, it's his opinion and it's just some push back to the confused religion of "woke"

this will go back and forth probably almost for ever like left vs. right etc.

[Tanz]

He's mostly green and some yellow, if you listened to his commentary he makes points that everyone suffers, that statistically black men are treated just as bad if not worst than trans... but its all relative.  His general message in the netflix special is we should all love each other. 

If you listen to his last special he mentioned his good friend a trans comedian defended him because he gave her an opener slot when he came to oakland, not even knowing how good she was.  This friend was then harassed and canceled from the trans community, then spiraled into deeper depression and committed suicide. 

Many people in the trans community have lots of wounds to heal from... in the first place they grew up not loving who they are and their environment as a child wasn't supportive in helping them explore their sexuality and gender.... but really how many parents are equipped to handle such things??
Their wounds prevent them to see and listen to things....

It's not anyone's job to love you but it's your job to find a way to love those that you want love from.
Personally, I was a victim of hate crimes which got me fearful, angry, sad, and many other emotions... if I can turn back time, I would have given myself that advice.  

Edited October 21, 2021 by Tanz

[Opo]

7 hours ago, Tanz said:

He's mostly green and some yellow, 

Lmao. 

Terfs are below green. 

[DocWatts]

Dave Chappelle is quite insightful when it comes to issues of race and really out of touch when it comes to LGBTQ issues. One doesn't invalidate the other.

It's okay to still like his standup comedy, as long as your realize that when it comes to gender he's an out of touch Gen-Xer who brings with him biases from earlier generations.

Edited October 21, 2021 by DocWatts

[Epikur]

Sorry for reposting it but Cenk is so funny here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7rks_OgayE&t=2s

[Harlen Kelly]

@Tanz You might want to watch the spiral dynamics series again. 

[Raze]

Some controversy of the reporting of the protest

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1451280366841614343?s=20

[Ilan]

Stage Orange trying to move up to green: It's impossible

Stage green trying to up orange to green: No it's necessary

[Tanz]

18 hours ago, Harlen Kelly said:

@Tanz You might want to watch the spiral dynamics series again. 

I've seen it and read the books, I have a good grasp of the concepts.  

 

On 10/21/2021 at 5:49 PM, Opo said:

Lmao. 

Terfs are below green. 

TERFS is an interesting idea... just because you exclude a certain type of person doesn't mean you hate them.

Thinking about how it refers to me on some elements of my life
I am a fairly successful person, I'm attracted to women, I have pretty specific criteria when choosing a partner.  Good looks, smart, family-oriented, kind are usually what I look for.  If a fat lazy person that doesn't like kids is attracted to me and I reject them, does that make me Exclusionary?  What if a trans person wants to have sex with me and I reject, does that make me exclusionary?  what if I don't like to eat certain foods? am exclusionary? 
Just by labeling yourself a "feminist" already creates exclusion in many other things.. the term TERFS, Feminist, any IST is an oxymoron

How many aspects in our lives do we exclude someone or something?

[Carl-Richard]

Imagine being canceled for not knowing the difference between sex and gender in 2021.

[Harlen Kelly]

1 hour ago, Tanz said:

I've seen it and read the books, I have a good grasp of the concepts.  

You very obviously don't, painfully obvious. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Imagine being canceled for not knowing the difference between sex and gender in 2021.

It's more than that. 

He said that he knows trans people like to make up words to win arguments. 

Imagine if someone said that they know black people like to steal. 

Of course some people would be outraged. 

[Opo]

2 hours ago, Tanz said:

TERFS is an interesting idea... just because you exclude a certain type of person doesn't mean you hate them.

Thinking about how it refers to me on some elements of my life
I am a fairly successful person, I'm attracted to women, I have pretty specific criteria when choosing a partner.  Good looks, smart, family-oriented, kind are usually what I look for.  If a fat lazy person that doesn't like kids is attracted to me and I reject them, does that make me Exclusionary?  What if a trans person wants to have sex with me and I reject, does that make me exclusionary?  what if I don't like to eat certain foods? am exclusionary? 
Just by labeling yourself a "feminist" already creates exclusion in many other things.. the term TERFS, Feminist, any IST is an oxymoron

How many aspects in our lives do we exclude someone or something?

If I said that blacks aren't human would that make me a racist? 

[Tanz]

32 minutes ago, Opo said:

If I said that blacks aren't human would that make me a racist? 

You can say whatever you want. What's your point?

[hoodrow trillson]

Honestly, this whole Chappelle and LGBTQ situation has me stumped and I can't actually make a good take on it at all.  

I know and understand where both sides are coming from, but the thing that has me stumped is the fact that Chappelle was making jokes.  And his jokes are like a .50 caliber Magnum in terms of how hard it can hit.  He doesn't give a fuck because they're jokes.

Are we going to regulate jokes?  

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Tanz said:

TERFS is an interesting idea... just because you exclude a certain type of person doesn't mean you hate them.

Thinking about how it refers to me on some elements of my life
I am a fairly successful person, I'm attracted to women, I have pretty specific criteria when choosing a partner.  Good looks, smart, family-oriented, kind are usually what I look for.  If a fat lazy person that doesn't like kids is attracted to me and I reject them, does that make me Exclusionary?  What if a trans person wants to have sex with me and I reject, does that make me exclusionary?  what if I don't like to eat certain foods? am exclusionary? 
Just by labeling yourself a "feminist" already creates exclusion in many other things.. the term TERFS, Feminist, any IST is an oxymoron

How many aspects in our lives do we exclude someone or something?

TERF is not about dating preferences. It's about not recognizing trans rights. And no, it's not an interesting idea, not any more than homophobia is an interesting idea.

[Roy]

Dave is just saying what we are all thinking, but won't (can't) say. That's the job of a comedian.

I'm as progressive as they come but maybe, just maybe some of these groups need to show the slightest bit of humility and check their privilege if jokes can be made about literal military dictators, but not them.

Nobody gets special protection from fucking comedians. It seems like an exaggeration, but the moment we start playing that game we lose something as a society.

And if a comedian isn't tactful and says something distasteful? Nothing bad happens, you just don't laugh!

[Opo]

4 hours ago, hoodrow trillson said:

I know and understand where both sides are coming from, but the thing that has me stumped is the fact that Chappelle was making jokes.  And his jokes are like a .50 caliber Magnum in terms of how hard it can hit.  He doesn't give a fuck because they're jokes.

Are we going to regulate jokes?  

Jokes can be harmful because they enhance and normalize negative thoughts people have about someone and then those people are more likely to bully or even assault someone. 

I'm not saying we should ban them. For me it's more important to have the freedom to say that stuff than the little increase in safety of someone. 

I'm just saying that just because it's a joke doesn't mean it's not harmful. A lot of racism gets pushed through jokes. 

3 hours ago, Roy said:

Dave is just saying what we are all thinking, but won't (can't) say. That's the job of a comedian.

I'm as progressive as they come but maybe, just maybe some of these groups need to show the slightest bit of humility and check their privilege if jokes can be made about literal military dictators, but not them.

Usually people don't have a problem when you make fun of privileged people. 

3 hours ago, Roy said:

Nobody gets special protection from fucking comedians. It seems like an exaggeration, but the moment we start playing that game we lose something as a society.

No one except Joe. 

3 hours ago, Roy said:

And if a comedian isn't tactful and says something distasteful? Nothing bad happens, you just don't laugh!

This would work if audience wasn't sexist or racist... 

But if they are you can make horrible jokes and they will still laugh and buy your tickets.