The false rape problem

[Tetcher]

25 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

If by "some cases" you mean 2% of mild rape cases, yea. . . 

Yet don't portray rape as generally being "mild discomfort and a sense that boundaries were overtaken". That describes spitting on a person, not physically forcing your penis into their vagina / anus against their will. 

I spent years volunteering in a psychiatric ward. Many of those cases involved rape. And rape is usually not an isolated event. There is generally more going on. And the impact of rape and domestic violence goes much deeper than "mild discomfort" and "overtaken boundaries". You have no clue what the actual impact is. 

And I also have personal experience with being falsely accused. That sucks too. 

Your claim that I have no clue what the actual impact is is unwarranted, I didn't say that rape couldn't have devastating devastating effect. There can be various levels of forcefulness on the rapist side, rejection on the victim side and relationship between the rapist and the victim is all I said. Maybe some rape cases need not to have the same devastating as for instance a jogger that gets ambushed in the middle of a forest.

Now from your second sentence I understand that you would tend to exclude from the definition of rape those "milder" (with an ambush by an armed  and masked aggressor being on the top side of the scale) forms of consent overpowering, I don't think that would be doing victims service. When I talk about false accusation is when there was no intercourse or consent was given.

It must have sucked that you were falsely accused too, fortunately you were maybe not jailed for years to decades or lynched by a mob at which point we could have said that the false accusation would have been more damaging to you than maybe some forms of rape.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Tetcher

[Forestluv]

46 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

Your claim that I have no clue what the actual impact is is unwarranted, I didn't say that rape couldn't have devastating devastating effect. There can be various levels of forcefulness on the rapist side, rejection on the victim side and relationship between the rapist and the victim is all I said. Maybe some rape cases need not to have the same devastating as for instance a jogger that gets ambushed in the middle of a forest.

I agree that there are a range of impacts from mild to severe. 

It depends on the person. A female jogger that gets ambushed and raped could be traumatized and have PTSD for years. It's not a minor thing. This is why women are very mindful about there surroundings - especially isolated areas like jogging in the middle of a forest. Women often take precautions like bringing pepper spray, running with a dog, being extra alert and only running during peak hours of the park. Men don't have to have this mindset and it's difficult for most men to imagine living in such a reality. 

46 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

Now from your second sentence I understand that you would tend to exclude from the definition of rape those "milder" (with an ambush by an armed  and masked aggressor being on the top side of the scale) forms of consent overpowering, I don't think that would be doing victims service. When I talk about false accusation is when there was no intercourse or consent was given.

It must have sucked that you were falsely accused too, fortunately you were maybe not jailed for years to decades or lynched by a mob at which point we could have said that the false accusation would have been more damaging to you than maybe some forms of rape.

I agree there is a spectrum of degrees regarding consent, rape and harm. I am not excluding "milder" forms of rape - yet if they go far enough on the milder side, I would consider it sexual harassment, not assault. For example, I would consider a boss isolating a female employee and fondling her breasts to be sexual harassment, not rape. 

46 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

It must have sucked that you were falsely accused too, fortunately you were maybe not jailed for years to decades or lynched by a mob at which point we could have said that the false accusation would have been more damaging to you than maybe some forms of rape.

I think harm degree is an important factor, yet to me the way you are engaging with whether false accusations or rape is worse isn't oriented toward overall harm reduction. 

My own experience involved the woman lying, stalking and sending legitimate threats on my life that included hiring a hitman to beat / kill me. I would consider this a relatively mild harm. It had a big impact on me for about two years, yet I was able to recover from it and don't have any lasting damage. I didn't file a police report or press charges because I wanted to avoid social stigma, I was afraid that it would enrage her and she would actually severely attack me, and I didn't think there was a good chance she would actually be convicted. So, I also have an idea of what it's like not reporting a crime (such as women not reporting rape / domestic violence incidents). 

Some forms of false accusations can be quite violent. Yet for me, the experience gave me some insight into what it would be like to be a woman in a domestic violence situation, which asymmetrically impact women. I wasn't like "Men are victims of domestic violence to!!". I was like "Omg, so that's kinda what it's like". This motivated me to volunteer in shelters for domestic violence (which were about 90% women). 

[integral]

Education Reinvented should solve things systemically. There are no surface level solutions as far as i can tell. 

[Tetcher]

@Forestluv thank you for sharing your experience, those were intense events and I feel for you, it's good that you managed to outgrew them.

I feel we are mostly on the same page I'm not sure what makes you think that I'm not oriented towards harm reduction. I was simply saying that it is possible for false rape accusations to have more damaging effect than some interactions that a judiciary court would qualify as rape. So in the context of this thread about false accusation I'm saying that false rape accusations also have to be taken seriously and not brushed under the rug. Both offenses should be liable to a similar penalty. I wasn't saying that overall false rape accusations are a more important issue than rape and vice versa. I'm not comparing them really past the observation that their damaging effects scales are overlapping.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Tetcher

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

@Forestluv thank you for sharing your experience, those were intense events and I feel for you, it's good that you managed to outgrew them.

I feel we are mostly on the same page I'm not sure what makes you think that I'm not oriented towards harm reduction. I was simply saying that it is possible for false rape accusations to have more damaging effect than some interactions that a judiciary court would qualify as rape. So in the context of this thread about false accusation I'm saying that false rape accusations also have to be taken seriously and not brushed under the rug. I wasn't saying that overall false rape accusations are a more important issue than rape and vice versa. I'm not comparing them really past the observation that their damaging effects scales are overlapping.

Gotcha. Looks like I misinterpreted your post. 

As well, men also make false accusations regarding violence. Men rarely falsely accuse a woman of rape. Yet men also falsely accuse women of malicious behavior. When two or more people are entangled within a web of violence, there are all sorts of lying going on. 

When I volunteered in a psychiatric ward, I commonly had long discussions with people entwined in domestic violence abuse. They were clearly in an abusive situation (as shown by physical wounds), yet they also mixed truth and lies. It seemed like lying is part of survival in the world they lived in. And there were many forms of lies. For example, some women would lie by saying their wounds were self-imposed or accidents. If a woman's only real option is to return to the domestically violent environment, she will often try to protect the abuser by lying to minimize his involvement. If she tells the truth, it can enrage the abuser and cause her more harm. 

Women can be violent and I consider false accusations that lead to imprisonment to be violence. Yet in general - men are more violent - both in degree and frequency. 

[Danioover9000]

@Gesundheit

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

I don't think there's any legal system that sentences 20 years for rape. So you might be imagining things a lot worse than they are.

Usually when a woman falsely accuses a man, she's after his money, so she would be careful not to throw him in jail. If a woman seriously wanted to throw a man in jail, that means he's actually hurt her so bad that she wanted to get back at him through illegal means, because she couldn't get justice through the law because she's socially disadvantaged and the man was a jerk to her while thinking he would get away with it, so he probably deserves it. Otherwise, she would have to be completely nuts to falsely accuse him. There are basically no other options out of those three.

   Unless I'm mistaken, but this is one example. There are far worse ones that can't be posted.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Gesundheit]

11 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Gesundheit

   Unless I'm mistaken, but this is one example. There are far worse ones that can't be posted.

Well, that seems terrible. But I would take it with a grain of salt. It could easily be propaganda. What's the backstory behind the accusation? This is the important question here.

Also, what far worse than that?

[Thittato]

I think the underlying issue here is that men also feel deeply hurt by all the different ways that women hurt men. Obviously rape is a very bad and real thing, but with this whole #metoo thing there has been a massive focus in the media on how bad men are towards women, and this feels unbalanced towards many of us, because we have also been deeply hurt by women, and we would like to talk openly about how this dynamic plays out, instead of being shamed into silence and just having to accept the political correct version about how this is. The female shadow can be pretty intimidating, too. I think we all know lots of examples about women who have been very psychologically abusive towards men (and of course the other way around). As men we are generally just told that this is just nature and something that we have to put up with. But if mainstream media is going to constantly drill into our heads how bad men are towards women, well, then I would like to also have a much closer look at the full picture going on here because this abuse is going both ways. But I'm very glad this whole conversation have been opened up - I just hope it can soon bring in a much broader picture. I don't think the so-called "war between the sexes" will end before a much more compassionate, wise and forgiving climate has been established around this whole thing.

[Parththakkar12]

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. I'm signing off now.

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

 

This case also reflects socio-economic issues in court systems. This man was in a lower caste, if he was in an upper caste - he likely would not have been imprisoned.

In the U.S. low income people are not within the same justice system as upper class people. For example, using DNA analysis on old cases have identified many innocent people in jail. And poor people are disproportionately affected. Especially poor people of color. It's not just a gender thing. 

[Forestluv]

29 minutes ago, Thittato said:

I think the underlying issue here is that men also feel deeply hurt by all the different ways that women hurt men. Obviously rape is a very bad and real thing, but with this whole #metoo thing there has been a massive focus in the media on how bad men are towards women, and this feels unbalanced towards many of us, because we have also been deeply hurt by women, and we would like to talk openly about how this dynamic plays out, instead of being shamed into silence and just having to accept the political correct version about how this is.

I wish more men could use this collective experience to transcend their identification to maleness. Throughout history, women have wanted to talk openly about their experience with domestic violence. Yet for hundreds / thousands of years women have been shamed into silence. Domestic violence and shaming has been asymmetric against women. They have had to carry the greater burden, by far. It's not even close. 

And now, some men get a little taste of it and contract into a male identity about how men are being shamed and silenced. And some men go even further and say that the social system regarding violence is asymmetrically against men! 

I understand the individual and collective consciousness of self / identity preservation, yet I wish more men would have an awakening and realize "Omg, this is what women have had to endure for centuries. So this is what it's like". This can lead to deeper understanding of power dynamics and violence. It can lead to empathic understanding with women and the asymmetric burden they have had to endure. Yet it seems for most men, this realization doesn't come easy. 

Given history and current asymmetric power dynamics, I don't think it's enough for men to simply say "what about us men? We are victims of violence too. Let's focus on creating more laws and improving the system to help men". I don't see that as balanced. Based on asymmetry, I think it would be more balanced for men to say "Let's invest 80% of our limited resources into education and protective services to reduce male violence against women and 20% of our resources to reduce female violence against men". Yet most men would have an extremely strong resistance to this. When men have 80% of power and control over resources, even a 50:50 split seems unfair to them. 

[Tetcher]

25 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Given history and current asymmetric power dynamics, I don't think it's enough for men to simply say "what about us men? We are victims of violence too. Let's focus on creating more laws and improving the system to help men". I don't see that as balanced. Based on asymmetry, I think it would be more balanced for men to say "Let's invest 80% of our limited resources into education and protective services to reduce male violence against women and 20% of our resources to reduce female violence against men". Yet most men would have an extremely strong resistance to this. When men have 80% of power / resources, even a 50:50 split seems unfair. 

Let us strive to make things right, not to restart the wheel in the opposite direction or we're in for another cycle.

[Forestluv]

38 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

Let us strive to make things right, not to restart the wheel in the opposite direction or we're in for another cycle.

I would say "making things right" involves acknowledging and addressing asymmetry as well as distributing our resources proportional to that asymmetry, This is not "restarting the wheel in the opposite direction". That is a framing those on the "good side" of the asymmetry commonly use. 

As a detached example: imagine 80% of lead contamination was found in the water system of the south side of Chicago and only 20% of lead contamination was found in the north side. However, the north side has always received 80% of the lead removal budget (this is why only 20% of lead contamination is on their side). This is an asymmetric problem and a mis-allocation of resources. However, re-allocating funds to a 50:50 split will not address the asymmetry. The best allocation is investing 80% of the lead removal budget to the south side (since 80% of the contamination is there). However, people on the North side are use to getting 80% of the budget. Only receiving 20% of the budget would seem like an injustice in the opposite direction. Even a 50:50 split would seem like an injustice since they have been conditioned to receive 80%. 

Once funds are re-allocated to the south side, eventually the lead contamination will be roughly 50:50 on each side and a 50:50 split of the budget is justified. But many on the North side will not be able to see this because their individual and collective consciousness is identified as a "North sider" and they will perceive through a lens that is preferentially biased toward the North side and the wellness/survival of the North side. 

This is why some men aggressively try to smokescreen the asymmetry that is strongly tilted toward male violence against women. Acknowledging that asymmetry makes it much harder to rationalize maintaining an unequal share of power and resources. So they come up will all sorts of obfuscations that the asymmetry isn't so bad. And some simply try to sidestep the issue. This is a common feature with a variety of asymmetric harm dynamics. The group benefitting from the asymmetry will avoid acknowledging and addressing it. 

[Emerald]

15 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

When you are falsely accused, all evidence flies out the window. The system is hell-bent on destroying your life if you are a guy!

We keep making the assumption that evidence is objectively considered in rape accusations. It's not! It's very easy for a woman to ruin a man's life in today's date. The system literally just has it out for the accused in that situation, not because there is any base to the accusation, but because the system has an ass to cover. Because, at the end of the day, we don't care about the truth. We care about making everyone happy in the moment, so that all hell doesn't break loose.

This is the situation, even though we are living in a patriarchy. Imagine how bad it would've gotten if we lived in a matriarchy!

Oops. I said something that's too true. I'm going to get a ban-hammer now or I'm going to get warning-points now. Society ain't ready for the truth, man!

I'll just leave this here that I posted earlier. Right now, you're really upset by the 20 lbs you have to carry without any care for the 1000 lbs women have to carry.

Also, most rapists never serve time in jail. So, even rightfully accused people tend to get off scott-free in the case of a rape. 

"So, it's just a matter of men needing to take on more risk factor for the sake of taking some of the burden off of women's shoulders.

Let's say that women's risk of rape/being accused of false accusation AND men's risk of being falsely accused of rape is symbolized by rocks.

Now, men are carrying around 20 lbs of rocks everywhere they go as this represents the likelihood of them being falsely accused of rape. 

And women are carrying around 1000 lbs of rocks which represents the likelihood of them being raped and then accused of false accusation.

Because the risk women are carrying is FAR greater than the risk men are carrying, when men get concerned about false accusation and criticize the MeToo Movement, it just looks like men trying to shovel their 20 lbs of rocks off onto women who are already carrying 1000 lbs of rocks. Men want women to carry all the risk factor and get rid of their risk factor altogether.

Now, for a man who is falsely accused, of course it's terrible. 

But to expect that women take on all the liability of rape is just selfish.

And there's already a huge issue that, when women come forward about rape, their communities don't believe them and ostracize them and side with the man. So, you're trying to feel more secure and safe and to guarantee you'll never be falsely accused (which is very unlikely to happen)... but women don't have any such exemption."

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Gesundheit  Imagine having to live being accused of a crime you didn't commit, and how your community thinks about you and your family. How would you think and feel in general?

Most women who come forward about rape get accused of the crime of false accusation.

The community usually prefers the narrative, "The woman that I know lied about it and the man I know is innocent" to the narrative "The woman I know was raped and the man I know is a rapist." The first narrative goes down a lot easier.

So, what you have to understand is that ALL women who come forward about rape, will be falsely accused of the crime of false accusation as most people side with the rapist. Most people will always think that about her not matter what that she's lying and trying to rake a guy over the coals. 

I'll leave my analogy here too, so that you can understand the way that imbalance in liability shakes out...

So, it's just a matter of men needing to take on more risk factor for the sake of taking some of the burden off of women's shoulders.

Let's say that women's risk of rape/being accused of false accusation AND men's risk of being falsely accused of rape is symbolized by rocks.

Now, men are carrying around 20 lbs of rocks everywhere they go as this represents the likelihood of them being falsely accused of rape. 

And women are carrying around 1000 lbs of rocks which represents the likelihood of them being raped and then accused of false accusation.

Because the risk women are carrying is FAR greater than the risk men are carrying, when men get concerned about false accusation and criticize the MeToo Movement, it just looks like men trying to shovel their 20 lbs of rocks off onto women who are already carrying 1000 lbs of rocks. Men want women to carry all the risk factor and get rid of their risk factor altogether.

Now, for a man who is falsely accused, of course it's terrible. 

But to expect that women take on all the liability of rape is just selfish.

And there's already a huge issue that, when women come forward about rape, their communities don't believe them and ostracize them and side with the man. So, you're trying to feel more secure and safe and to guarantee you'll never be falsely accused (which is very unlikely to happen)... but women don't have any such exemption. 

[Lyubov]

such a bad faith topic... not gonna pretend a false rape accusation has never been made but the way it gets an entire thread like there is a pandemic of them... smh

[Parththakkar12]

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'll just leave this here that I posted earlier. Right now, you're really upset by the 20 lbs you have to carry without any care for the 1000 lbs women have to carry.

Also, most rapists never serve time in jail. So, even rightfully accused people tend to get off scott-free in the case of a rape. 

"So, it's just a matter of men needing to take on more risk factor for the sake of taking some of the burden off of women's shoulders.

Let's say that women's risk of rape/being accused of false accusation AND men's risk of being falsely accused of rape is symbolized by rocks.

Now, men are carrying around 20 lbs of rocks everywhere they go as this represents the likelihood of them being falsely accused of rape. 

And women are carrying around 1000 lbs of rocks which represents the likelihood of them being raped and then accused of false accusation.

Because the risk women are carrying is FAR greater than the risk men are carrying, when men get concerned about false accusation and criticize the MeToo Movement, it just looks like men trying to shovel their 20 lbs of rocks off onto women who are already carrying 1000 lbs of rocks. Men want women to carry all the risk factor and get rid of their risk factor altogether.

Now, for a man who is falsely accused, of course it's terrible. 

But to expect that women take on all the liability of rape is just selfish.

And there's already a huge issue that, when women come forward about rape, their communities don't believe them and ostracize them and side with the man. So, you're trying to feel more secure and safe and to guarantee you'll never be falsely accused (which is very unlikely to happen)... but women don't have any such exemption."

Have you ever been falsely accused? How do you know it's only 20 lbs compared to 1000 lbs? This is a gross trivialization of the issue. This shows how little society really cares about men and how much the system is geared against you if you are a guy. Everything you just said is proof for why it is a really serious issue that is greatly under-appreciated and how everyone wants to sweep it under the rug.

The sexism is real. I'm going to call you out on your unconscious sexism here and how it hurts others.

If a false accusation happens, that is fully the woman's fault. No, I'm not going to take any responsibility for that situation at all. She is to blame and that's how everyone should see it. Nobody else is responsible in that situation for the false accusation and how that's going to ruin the guy's life. This is even worse than a crime, because it is a misuse of the system! This is not even a 'crime' because that's recognized by the system. This is systemic abuse against men.

The fact that we are having such a hard time condemning it for the evil that it is, is embarrassing. It shows how pussified men have become when it comes to defending themselves and protecting their own and how easy it is for vindictive women to manipulate the whole situation to their ends. Now, though, it is time for some real accountability.

Everything you say to deny this reality is going to exacerbate the problem and you are choosing to be part of the problem if you do that.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Parththakkar12]

I would like to propose the radical idea here that women also have accountability and it's not always the man's fault.

[Epikur]

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I would like to propose the radical idea here that women also have accountability and it's not always the man's fault.

I guess it is not acceptable. They might suffer under systematic genderism. So what you are doing then might be mansplaining.

[Parththakkar12]

29 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I guess it is not acceptable. They might suffer under systematic genderism. So what you are doing then might be mansplaining.

Speaking of mansplaining, isn't it interesting to get womansplained to about something they know nothing about?! It applies the other way around here! It absolutely does. It's very convenient, I'll give them that.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Parththakkar12