What is the difference between hard drugs and psychadelics?

[vibv]

@Jacobsrw The feeling of euphoria is per definition as real as it gets (or you could also say unreal/illusory, it doesn’t matter). Every feeling/experience in itself is totally real and unreal at the same time.

But I would agree that it’s a more shallow form of euphoria than that of psychedelics.

[Jacobsrw]

2 minutes ago, vibv said:

@Jacobsrw The feeling of euphoria is per definition as real as it gets (or you could also say unreal/illusory, it doesn’t matter). Every feeling/experience in itself is totally real and unreal at the same time.

But I would agree that it’s a more shallow form of euphoria than that of psychedelics.

That’s true. Even an illusory thought has realness to it, by virtue that it exists. I guess it depends on what one assumes to be purely two and what one does not. From my experience the nature of street drugs feel extremely antithetical to real even though they may be.

[Ramu]

@Nemo28 psychedelics are non addictive

[Brenzo2]

As an observation from the point of view of someone who has had individuals in my family and around my abuse hard drugs a lot in my early life and for prolonged periods of time;

I think hard drugs increase self-deception by a huge amount in some people. Sometimes uncontrollably. Bliss isn't always a given with these drugs, I think it perpetuates the notion that you as yourself have something missing and that you need something to fill an emptiness. And from my perspective I would say permanently. (even my sister has become deluded via hard drugs). 

She doesn't aspire to anything. In the UK we have qualifications in school that are taken by 15-16 year old called GCSEs. She's 29 with none of those. Doesn't want a job, doesn't want any form of education, wouldn't want to return, feeds off of the welfare and benefits we have here in UK. Just a 'need' to do hard drugs. Alcohol, cocaine, heroin, pretty much anything, sometimes putting her young childrens' mental health on the line. The use of drugs lead her to create issues in the community and within other individuals. She is also not blissed out constantly. She comes down to a level of 'bliss' that is precisely the reverse of what she had felt on the drugs. 

With psychedelics I'm much more certain the 'bliss' and lessons learned from the trip can be integrated and slowly coaxed into being revealed to the sober mind. 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Brenzo2

[Carl-Richard]

It's true that the common conception of drugs is generally characterized by a lack of ability to make useful distinctions. However, I would only support taking a more liberal stance if it comes from making better distinctions. With that said, the soft/hard dichotomy is fallacious for many reasons. There exists more accurate ways of looking at a drug.

One way is the distinction between consciousness expanding drugs and consciousness decreasing drugs. I would evaluate this is by looking at the long-term benefits: does it lead to a long-term net increase or decrease in consciousness? Most psychedelics tend to fall into the first category. Virtually all other drugs tend fall in that last category.

My definition of consciousness here is more strict than somebody who would maybe want to include something like stimulants in the first category, because while you can have great intellectual breakthroughs on them and become more productive for a certain period of time, the issues around dependency, neural downregulation, cognitive and emotional instability, lack of refinement, compulsive patterns and habits; all of this impacts the long-term value.

What about grey areas like cannabis? There I would say it depends on the way it's used and who is using it. It can sometimes be used for growth, but once you've exhausted that potential, it can also be used to stagnate growth. But isn't it then also true that careful use of purely hedonic drugs can sometimes lead to long-term growth? Maybe, but again, generally the more hedonic a drug is, the larger the potential is for stagnation than for growth.

The term hedonic can also be confusing, because aren't psychedelics potentially very pleasureable? Well, the key there is "potentially". Psychedelics don't promote a fixed input-output relationship between stimulus and response. Your pleasure on psychedelics is contingent on a large array of different conditions. While heroin makes you feel pleasure irrespective of whether your life is in rapture or your body is damaged, psychedelics will most likely amplify those things.

This is exactly why psychedelics increase consciousness, because they make you more aware of nuances. Consciousness decreasing drugs instead act to neutralize nuances in some way or another. Psychedelics don't produce pleasure per se, but if you're inherently peaceful within yourself, psychedelics will expand that within you. If your trip becomes hard, it will try to show you how to further cultivate that inner peace within yourself, and that is what spirituality is about.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Corpus]

The categorization of hard vs "not hard" drugs overlooks a key aspect and that is the frequency of use, and this in turn is determined by ones maturity, knowledge and ability to exercise restraint. These 3 factors are separate from and not beholden to the pharmacology of any substance. There is a very small and discrete population out there who for example derive significant pleasure and benefit from using opiates in a measured and controlled fashion for years and yet do keep this activity very hush-hush because the overwhelming majority of people cannot accept nor comprehend that this is possible. Hence the distinction of hardness is applied to such agents as a "democratic" bestowal because the majority of users are unable to have a productive relationship with them. 

In terms of "consciousness expansion", a loaded term with much baggage, would the loosening of the up-tight and self-absorbed reactionary self by an opiate such that the user feels complete, generous and utterly at ease for the first time in their life not be a form of consciousness expansion? The problem seed is sown when the desire to again experience this utter fulfilment (which does not necessarily render functioning a challenge as with a psychedelic) is pursued the next day... and the day after..... 

[BlackMaze]

@Nemo28 have you ever saw a 14 year old junkie with foam running through his mouth? I have. In fact i saw all kinds of junkies they were everywhere in my old city. You must be either stupid or one step before suicide to even try it. Would i risk become like this to experience the best orgasm possible? Fuck no. Fuck all the cunts dealing death driving around with Mercedes 

[Flowerfaeiry]

Something about hard drugs is that they can really make a person struggle. So while it's not ideal, a hard drug user who manages to come out of it, may have a head start at personal development because they have struggled a lot.

 

I was never addicted to hard drugs but I've used quite a bit when I was in a difficult  and immature place in life. Those times broadened my perspective on the world, made me more empathetic and understanding to hard drug addicts and made me more resilient. 

[Aaron p]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

Drugs like heroin are highly addictive and a lot of young people innocently throw their lives away and destroy families this way. 

 

I wouldn’t take it so lightly folks.

I agree. That's a game you don't want to play

[Aaron p]

1 hour ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

...while it's not ideal, a hard drug user who manages to come out of it, may have a head start at personal development because they have struggled a lot.

...hmm I also agree.

Like the opposite of helping the butterfly out of its cocoon (causing it to be weaker)...If the butterfly is able to work itself out of a particularly strong cocoon, it will be stronger...much stronger than the other butterflys. But if its too weak, it's fucked.

Ketamine is amazing at putting you into a state where you are literally tranquil-ized and separated from your sense of self to a degree. But it's very very addictive. If done once, I think it would be ok. You just don't Wana do it if you know your not a disciplined person.

 there are also complications with brain development if exposed to drugs at a young age. I guess these are the facts, do with them what you will. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Aaron p

[AtheisticNonduality]

Hunter S. Thompson's daily routine is a good example of ridiculous brain-melting stupidity.

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Aaron p @Flowerfaeiry Yep, a good obscure example of this head start is a former heroin addict that's now Second Tier named Nivek Ogre.

[WhatAWondefulWorld]

14 hours ago, vibv said:

It‘s not black and white.

There is DMT, 5-MeO-DMT which are very clean psychedelics. Then there is LSD and Psilocybin which can be very powerful, too, but tend to be not as deep or as clean. 
Then there are dissociatives which already can have a kind of „more-ish“ feel to them and thus have a greater potential of addiction. 
Then there are of course the „classic“ harder drugs like speed, cocaine, heroine (which is in itself the opposite in effects of speed or cocaine, but in terms of safety belongs in the same ballpark imo). 
MDMA is somewhere in between and so on ..

I personally classify drugs in terms of potential for addiction. Those which are more numbing/narcotic usually have a higher potential for addiction, because they can be easily abused.

Psychedelics on the other hand are consciousness expanding which cannot at all times be pleasant per definition. But you tend to come out of the experience expanded. 
Not contracted like with heroin, where you will need your next fix to experience the pleasure again.

Cant forget about about Salvia

[WhatAWondefulWorld]

@BlackMaze

7 hours ago, BlackMaze said:

You must be either stupid or one step before suicide to even try it.

Sadly I can confirm this claim

[BlackMaze]

@WhatAWondefulWorld sorry to hear that. I hope you are strong and healthy now

[WhatAWondefulWorld]

@BlackMaze Much stronger.

I have always had an interest in understanding reality. A couple years ago while I was already in a depressed state, my life brought a series of events, mistakes, and disturbances that threw me into the worst nightmare ever. I ended up going into an existential crisis and started questioning everything. Literally my mind flipped a switch when that crisis hit and I needed to do something. After a little while(I dont remember the time frames for this) I found Leo's content and his channel after searching up "What Is Reality" on YouTube.

Stumbled upon this gem: 

While watching that video, I was completely mindfucked by all the words coming out of Leo's mouth, I've never even thought of considering these types of ideas. Now here I am opening my whole mind to radical new possibilities. Then I looked to see what other videos were on Leo's channel. I was astounded. blown away by how the "universe" through some weird serendipity set me on my life path.

Edited February 19, 2021 by WhatAWondefulWorld

[BlackMaze]

@WhatAWondefulWorld ❤️

[Flowerfaeiry]

5 hours ago, Aaron p said:

there are also complications with brain development if exposed to drugs at a young age. I guess these are the facts, do with them what you will. 

Yes. But the brain is resilient and depending on severety of usage, a person may likely be ok when they stop (if they do) if there isn't consistent usage over years. 

[VeganAwake]

Staying sober could also be the craziest trip of all don't forget that ❤

[UNZARI]

I was addicted to coke on and off for a year. That experience made me a useless zombie. I couldn’t make art anymore and all I cared about was trying to get another 8 ball. Didn’t care about stealing money or the people I was hurting. Thankfully I grew out of it before I had to move out and get a job. On the other hand psychedelics have inspired some of my best creative ideas and created long lasting feelings of beauty and love as well as empathy that are now forever engrained in my soul.