Why is sexuality shamed in every culture?

[LordFall]

This is a phenomenon common across basically every culture I've heard of. Most people I meet or know need to intoxicate themselves to be comfortable admitting they're a hairless monkey that likes to hump or get humped by other humans.

Is there a deeper meaning to this? Why is this so common?

 

[xxxx]

@LordFall

This is something that has happened over time. 

I believe this has to do with the act of control. 

How does one control another? By instilling fear within them about their very freedom - make them fear freedom. 

Biological needs are our true nature, and the religious / political systems realised that they can control people when they put in ideas of fear, that will eventually give rise to shame.

How do you check if the fear is working? See what emotions people feel after having done what they were told not to do. 

It’s all a part of the dissonance - you know that sexuality is the essence of your existence, and yet the societal mechanisms treat it as taboo - and hence, shame percolates in the crevices here. 

There were so many cultures that were very sexually active, and that was respected (read ancient texts of the Eastern traditions) - but with colonization, missionary work, etc. - it took a very different turn. 

It’s much better now than it was 100-200 years ago, but there’s still a lot of conditioning to be undone. 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by xxxx

[flowboy]

Christians went all over the world to ruin sex for everybody else.

Japan used to have a sexually open culture where pornography was a respected art form. There are still ancient Japanese scrolls left over from that time, displaying instructive pictures of group sex and strap-on dildos. (google Shunga and you will not believe this is from the 1800s).

Then Christianity came and brought their shame. Now normal sex is repressed, and that unhealthy repression caused an obsessions with tentacles and other weirdness.

India used to have a sexually healthy and open culture. The Kama Sutra is from that time.

Then Westerners came and repressed the fuck out of that too. Now you can't even hold hands on the street.

[Leo Gura]

Most cultures stigmatize promiscuity because it actually is dangerous to one's survival. Sexual desire is such a powerful force that if it is not properly regulated it can lead to ruin and disaster. All societies that ever exists needed to regulate sexuality, whether through laws or cultural norms or morality. Usually all 3 are required.

This is not merely a Western or Christian thing. Strict sexual rules exist in all cultures. You can't just go sleeping around and expect there not to be social consequences.

The bottom line is that it's shamed because sex is so often and so easily abused. If you had a teenage daughter you would not look too kindly at her sleep around with a bunch of horny idiot jocks. Your daughter's social survival depends on her not being perceived as a dirty slut.

[flowboy]

@Leo Gura This is very interesting. What constitutes the danger to one's survival? Just jealousy and broken homes? Or are there more reasons?

[Rilles]

Whats interesting is how 99% of Purple tribes are half-naked. Its almost as if when Red/Blue arrived we got more clothed and Orange/Green we got a little more loose again.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Rilles

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, flowboy said:

@Leo Gura This is very interesting. What constitutes the danger to one's survival? Just jealousy and broken homes? Or are there more reasons?

There are too many dangers to list them all:

• Rape, abuse, molestation, perversion, enslavement, sex trafficking, exploitation and manipulation
• Pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage
• Diseases
• Cheating
• Heartache, depression, suicide
• Jealousy, envy
• Reputation, gossip, slander
• Illegitimate heirs and bastard children
• Embarrassment
• Addiction, attachment
• Fear, worry
• Financial concerns
• Lost friendships, broken family bonds
• Interferes with workplace duties, interferes with family duties, interferes with spiritual duties
• Etc.

 

9 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Whats interesting is how 99% of tribes are half-naked. Its almost as if when Red/Blue arrived we got more clothed and Orange/Green we got a little more loose again.

Small tribal life is very different from modern society. A small tribe is like a family. There are strong intimate bonds between all the people so that keeps you in check. In a modern society anonymity removes all those checks. Hence norms and laws are necessary.

[tsuki]

Demonizing sexuality is the key component of how the collective ego demonizes the person's body and teaches individuals to be dependent on its "norms" and "regulations". The body is the doorway to wisdom that is not dependent upon external circumstances, so of course it has to be smeared with all kinds of shit so that people won't discover its wealth.

The idea that humans are animals in heat and would kill each other if not kept on a leash is a disgusting ideology.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The idea that humans are animals in heat and would kill each other if not kept on a leash is a disgusting ideology.

It's not just an ideology. Most humans are not that far from animals when it comes to how they have sex.

Sex CAN be done consciously. But is it? Mostly no. Hence sex gets a bad rap.

An important aspect of spiritual development is getting your sex drive under control. You can't do spiritual work when you are a horny dog who can't focus on higher concerns.

[Lyubov]

27 minutes ago, flowboy said:

 

 

OG hentai right here folks 

[tsuki]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

14 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The idea that humans are animals in heat and would kill each other if not kept on a leash is a disgusting ideology.

It's not just an ideology. Most humans are not that far from animals when it comes to how they have sex.

Let me re-phrase my words: the idea that there is anything wrong with how animals have sex and that our animal nature is ought to be put on a leash is a disgusting ideology.

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

An important aspect of spiritual development is getting your sex drive under control. You can't do spiritual work when you are a horny dog who can't focus on higher concerns.

Sex obsessions stem directly from demonizing one's sexuality and focusing on "higher" concerns. Either that, or trying to substitute sex for other needs that we're not able to recognize because of plethora of false beliefs about ourselves.

Edited January 7, 2021 by tsuki

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

An important aspect of spiritual development is getting your sex drive under control. You can't do spiritual work when you are a horny dog.

Can you elaborate further on how to develop a healthy relationship with your sex drive?  

I remember in a post before you said something like in your late teens - early twenties, you could nut around 8 - 10 times a day without consequences.  Not saying you regularly did it that much but I would consider this behaviour compulsive masterbation.  

From my own experience, excessive masterbation has lead me to some erectile dysfunction issues.  How would you recommend developing a healthier relationship to your sex drive without it becoming a neurotic NoFap fixation? 

[xxxx]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most cultures stigmatize promiscuity because it actually is dangerous to one's survival.

Then, what about the courtesans that were well respected and enjoyed immense privilege in the olden times? The concept of 'danger' due to promiscuity in itself is made-up for a certain context to exist. There were so many cultures that used to practice polyamory, and the social situation was much better than what it is today. 

 

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All societies that ever exists needed to regulate sexuality, whether through laws or cultural norms or morality

Don't you think that if it were not for these 'laws' and 'regulations' in the first place, sex would not be put into certain boxes? These laws teach you how to behave - and bring forth concepts that never previously existed. Regulation is a broad term with broad laws, and that kills individuality - suppression, repression, etc. hence, arise. 

 

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The bottom line is that it's shamed because sex is so often and so easily abused

Abuse is nothing but misuse - and for something to be misused, they need to be firstly 'taught' how to use it. Who's the teacher here, then?

Do you think biological desires need to have societal moral codes to govern it, where someone, sometime decided that something is wrong if it is done in a different manner?

 

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

• Rape, abuse, molestation, perversion, enslavement, sex trafficking, exploitation and manipulation
• Pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage
• Diseases
• Cheating
• Heartache, depression, suicide
• Jealousy, envy
• Reputation, gossip, slander
• Illegitimate heirs and bastard children
• Embarrassment
• Addiction, attachment
• Fear, worry
• Financial concerns
• Lost friendships, broken family bonds
• Interferes with workplace duties, interferes with family duties, interferes with spiritual duties
• Etc.

If sex was fluid, and all had a choice, do you think most of these would happen, at all?

Why would there be issues with reputation / gossip / finance / embarrassment / broken bonds / work place duties if it were treated as something natural? I have read about the lives of courtesans in the kingdoms of Asia and they did not seem to have these issues.

 

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is not merely a Western or Christian thing

Now, there's something to think about here, right? 

Sexual activity and esteem became inter-related components here - because the religion and fear angle had to play out. 

 

So,

"Your daughter's social survival depends on her not being perceived as a dirty slut" - while this is true now, considering how the society functions right now, would this have existed if it were not for this 'regulation', at all? 

.

Trying to have a healthy, intellectual discussion here.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by xxxx

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, xxxx said:

Then, what about the courtesans that were well respected and enjoyed immense privilege in the olden times?

You mean effectively sex slaves?

If you're talking about ancient cultures -- they all strictly controlled women's sexuality so that the most powerful men got the hottest women by the dozen on command at any time of day.

The sexual marketplace has been carefully manipulated and dominated by powerful men for thousands of years to maximize their own survival.

If you give powerful men the freedom to do so, they will hoard all the hot women for themselves and turn them into sex slaves. That is survival 101 for a man. Hot women are worth more than their weight in gold. That's why it happens unless there are strict laws and morals against it. And even so -- it still happens today.

Never underestimate how far or how low a man will go for hot sex. If he's told to murder someone, he'll do it.

[xxxx]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You mean effectively sex slaves?

If you're talking about ancient cultures -- they all strictly controlled women's sexuality so that the most powerful men got the hottest women by the dozen on command at any time of day.

That's one of the many ways to put it.

 

Another way of putting it would be: 

Pasting this:

"Courtesans were a part of a thriving culture of women who were learned, witty and wealthy. They wrote and performed music; they painted and danced. They provided men with intelligent conversation, artistic pleasure and sex. Courtesans were  different in many ways. They were not tied down to a husband and could enjoy the attentions of many men whenever they liked. They were also able to speak their minds on any subject, and were able to speak and think freely along any route they chose.

Ancient Greece and ancient Rome both had courtesans as a very prominent part of the way the social fabric operated," Feldman said. "So did most places in the Far East and South Asia, India and Renaissance Italy."

In Renaissance Italy, Feldman's field of study, courtesans maintained salons "where there was elevated conversation about philosophical issues, intellectual issues, theories of life and beauty," she said. "Some [courtesans] were among the best-educated and most literate and cultured women of their time."

"The cultivated courtesan was a very refined, educated type of woman," said Doris Srinivasan, an art historian at the University of Memphis who will present a paper on courtesans in India. "She was respected; she had status; her position was not a degraded one. She was a woman of generosity, of wealth, of integrity, of education."

Sex was also used as a way of gaining power and prestige. Courtesans were usually highly educated and well versed in the etiquette of the time but they were also independent and able to express themselves as no other women could.

A courtesan or lorette was in control of her own life. She decided what lovers to take and she decided what was acceptable for her to do or say. 

It seems as though selling one's body is a small price to pay for the amount of freedom that was allowed to courtesans. The courtesan who, in choosing her profession had already rejected society's constraints and was thus able to live in an open and free manner.

"A courtesan is not the same as a prostitute." Modern sensibilities have equated courtesanship with prostitution, but courtesans and their societies did not. When the British colonized India, they made courtesans register for medical checkups and taxed them as if they were prostitutes, Srinivasan said. "They were really degrading them and placing them in a position they really did not have prior to that," she said.

A courtesan traded sex and sensuality, she said, but also was required to possess a daunting variety of other skills. According to the Kama Sutra, a "public woman" should be proficient in 64 arts, including singing, musical instruments, dancing, writing, drawing, magic, tailoring, carpentry, architecture and chemistry. They had autonomy and power.

But the vanished world of courtesans is an intriguing glimpse of female prestige and power where modern minds would least expect to find it. The Kama Sutra describes what happens to the courtesan who masters the 64 skills.

"Such a woman receives a seat of honor in the assembly of men. She can discourse with men as their equal. She is moreover always respected by the king and prized by learned men and, her favor being sought by all, she becomes an object of universal regard."

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by xxxx

[xxxx]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Never underestimate how far or how low a man will go for hot sex.

Educate me here, Leo, for I do not understand this, still - wouldn't he get this 'hot sex' even more easily without trying to impose things and making rules? Why are men making things difficult for themselves, if the hot sex is the actual goal? Logically speaking, with your train of thought- the very idea that 'sex has become so difficult to get' right now is a doing of men, itself? Did they regulate too much for their own bad?  

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by xxxx

[Gesundheit]

Carrot and stick. People at the top hold the rest by the nutbags.

Think about it from the pov of a tribal leader who wants to rule the world. If you would allow sex for your people, they would become lazy and won't follow you anymore, cuz they've got everything already. And then you wouldn't be able to grow/conquer the world. In fact, the neighbouring tribes would come to you, kill you and enslave you, and rape all the women in your tribe.

[mandyjw]

People are terrified of feeling and vulnerability, and use thought to block themselves off from feeling their own feelings and vulnerability. Therefore anything out in the world that has to do with feeling and vulnerability would also be demonized and controlled. 

[soos_mite_ah]

Colonization is a huge factor. A lot of cultures used to be much more liberal and open minded when it came to sex but when Europe colonized them, they labeled this sexual openness as barbaric and on par with fucking like animals. This has to do with a lot of moral superiority complexes (in a "I'm rational and not influenced by mere bodily desires" way) along with seeing other cultures and the people who belong to them as subhuman.

As @flowboy mentioned, both Japan and India had very open minded views on sex. I'm sure that also rings true with other cultures as well though I am not as well versed in this. 

I can say some things about India. A lot of the sexual conservatism we see there today has it's root back to the Victorian era when India was colonized. Colonization also made homosexual relationships illegal in India and it was overturned not to long ago in 2018. I remember when India legalized gay relationships, a lot of people were saying along the lines of how this isn't India becoming western and progressive rather this is India slowly decolonizing itself for age old norms implemented by the British. 

As for Europe and how sexual supression came about there, my hypothesis is that everything was really dirty and you could get infections really easily back in the middle ages and consequently, sex began being viewed as something disgusting. And I highly doubt that contraceptives were available to most people back then. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of notions of cleanliness and purity that is seen from religion takes it's root in the fear of STDs and the church co opted this notion because they have more control over people and because people would listen to them more if say the pope told them to not have sex as opposed to random people in your life. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by soos_mite_ah

[aurum]

It seems to be a multi-layered question. Lots of people have shared their perspective on this so I'll add something I haven't seen.

If you perceive yourself as separate and superior to the natural world, it's not surprising that something so primal like sexuality gets repressed.

Sex takes people back to being animals, which is what we have been trying to overcome through civilization. To civilize our self out those primitive things.

Also, sex if done properly can dissolve the ego. So in order for the illusion of ego to continue, it has to demonize and distort that tool.