Someone here

A question to Leo

300 posts in this topic

@Member From my direct experience all that is arising is form. Do you agree? Then why cant we speculate that there are things other then form? Why isnt it possible that there are things that exist that will never arise? Outside of arousal. lol 

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1 minute ago, Member said:

For you to disappear and reappear into this world, there has to be some form of consciousness making you reappear. Existence doesn't magically appear in dead matter. 

i agree.

 

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21 minutes ago, integral said:

@Member From my direct experience all that is arising is form. Do you agree? Then why cant we speculate that there are things other then form? Why isnt it possible that there are things that exist that will never arise? Outside of arousal. lol 

It's not only form, it's existence. You can be blind and exist, perceive or feel but this still occurs within a conscious mind. For a thing to exist it has to be conscious of itself and does not depend on other consciousness to keep on living. You can die and I can still live long enough without needing you to imagine myself being alive. But consciousness needs to make sense of existence so it project things outside of it, no matter what form or sensation it takes. Form is always changing but it isn't 'outside'. It is a mirror of you, a projection of your own mind.

Edited by Member

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9 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

I will, of course, that's my devotion. Nothing shall escape my microscope.

So now we're talking facts? Okay, but how about you stick to your facts and I stick to mine? You don't see me so I don't exist. I don't see you but I believe you exist. To talk to someone you don't believe exists is asinine. No? Being true to your facts should make you almost paralyzed. Although, to me, it doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Maybe it's not me who wants to believe in a second layer. Maybe it's you who's denying anything your current paradigm.

You're undermining thought as if carries no truth whatsoever, and yet you're using thought to tell me what's true and what's not. You will say: but I'm pointing you to your direct experience. Discard the pointer and look at what it's pointing to. And my reply will be: yeah, but that would require a leap of faith on my part to trust your pointer and give it value. After all, what if you're deluded? What if you pointing me to my direct experience is nothing but a delusion? You see, I don't take these things for granted anymore.

You're assuming that perception is the ground layer of reality, or raw reality. Is this assumption true or false?

Yeah, poor me.

All I can say is regardless of whether you deny perception/consciousness, it’s here, it’s primary, it’s completely undeniable. Any extra metaphysical claims about the substance of reality are subject to unfalsifiable skepticism. Rather than chasing a phantom substance which may or may not exist, enlightenment is about discovering the nature of what is Absolutely True. This requires careful concentration into the heart of what underlies perception, all experiences, and all thoughts. When you’ve studied epistemology and direct experience long enough, you’ll understand why Leo as well as a great number of people on this forum have let go of the need for thoughts to explain Absolute Truth. More specifically, why we make the claim that thoughts cannot explain Absolute Truth. 

The truth of the matter is that any thought cannot be Absolutely True due to the nature of thoughts existing as functions of time which is of course an illusion constructed by the mind, the fact that thoughts are symbolic representations of reality (the map is not the territory, never has been, never can be), and finally, the fact that all reason and rationality will always dissolve into an infinite regress of reason where one must eventually concede that they’re taking on a belief. Thoughts can be used to talk about the nature of thoughts, exactly what Im doing now, but this still isn’t the nature of thoughts Im speaking of. Less mental masturbation and more direct observation dude. 

And again, whether you want to chase phantom metaphysical substances which cant ever be proven due to the nature of conscious experience only having the ability to exist as experience, by all means go for it. But it’s not really the type of work you’ll get very far with. 

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@Nahm

No dude lol its just that I don't bother too much replying if the person didn't bother too much being clear as possible about what he is talking about 😊

1 hour ago, seeking_brilliance said:

 That's a dead end answer. It can and it can't. Lol. Even the poor Al has no clue. 


Silence is the highest teaching. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Nahm

 That's a dead end answer. It can and it can't. Lol. Even the poor Al has no clue. 

Well of course it can only rely on what others tell it 😋


My Imagination is a Monastery and I am its Monk- John Keats

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1 hour ago, Member said:

It's not only form, it's existence. You can be blind and exist, perceive or feel but this still occurs within a conscious mind. For a thing to exist it has to be conscious of itself and does not depend on other consciousness to keep on living. You can die and I can still live long enough without needing you to imagine myself being alive. But consciousness needs to make sense of existence so it project things outside of it, no matter what form or sensation it takes. Form is always changing but it isn't 'outside'. It is a mirror of you, a projection of your own mind.

Thank you, i think im getting it, but im going to play devils advocate for deeper understanding. 

1 hour ago, Member said:

But consciousness needs to make sense of existence so it project things outside of it,

What if everything your saying is just an insightful way of making sense of existence? How do we differentiate between paradigms?

Is it possible to be paradigm agnostic? 

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7 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

So if everything is infinite and constantly changing, wouldn't it also make sense to see existence as unknowable?

Absolute Truth of that which is infinite...can you see a possible dilemma in this line of thinking.

It would seem more conscious to recognize that it is truly unknowable, endless, What is, THIS, boundlessness.

You're not making this happen it's just happening whether it's real or not.

It doesn't matter!!

You can spend your whole life trying to unlock the mysteries of that which is infinite or you can sit back and marvel at what an amazing display.

It simply doesn't matter nothing does ❤

 

Woke AF bro 👍

 


Silence is the highest teaching. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Absolute Truth of that which is infinite...can you see a possible dilemma in this line of thinking.

Leo has said that Absolute Truth is not a concept, it would mean there is bedrock or an anchor where all his beliefs can be built on. 

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2 hours ago, Member said:

@Dodo Dude for something to exist there has to be some motion or change of some sort. Without time, nothing exists. Without a mind, there is no time. Mind precedes time. So how can you doubt that the is nothing outside of consciousness? Start thinking logically instead of throwing this "not knowing" dumb teaching. You're encouraging ignorance. Being spiritual doesn't equal to being naive and ignorant.

Logic has nothing to do with it. Your logic will never understand absolute infinity. You don't see how you are limiting the absolute to fit your logical paradigm. Keep weaving stories. Thats not truth, thats arrogance and clinging. 

Accept you do not know and will never know. That's true knowledge. It doesn't mean you can't know. It means you will never know all. It means to be humble and to be able to surrender to God. 

God will separate the poison from the milk. I do not pretend to know and I am not claiming godhood.

Let he who claims godhood explain why I am saying what im saying and not what they want. 

 


Not Even One
The devil is in the detail
Our true North is Love

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@Someone here

Quote

There is no one else here, just you, and nothing is being withheld from you. You are completely on your own. Everything is available for direct knowing.

 


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13 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

No. You're assuming that consciousness is the fundamental building block for the layers, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's something outside of your consciousness to comprehend. Have you considered that possibility? Maybe consciousness is not so efficient after all.

I disagree with the myth that being or God or reality is consciousness. To me, consciousness is a human projection onto reality, not reality itself. I don't make the mistake and confuse my projections for reality. I recognize my projections as projections. And I don't feel bad for not-knowing.

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Trying to go meta on existence by dissecting it into thought and perception, and whatever else it could be.

Ok to clarify again what I'm saying since you seem to boil down what I'm saying to the field of thought/perception/human consciousness, and as such those capacities are an inherently limiting and couldn't possibly see beyond into what possibly may be?  Is this kinda your contention?

Because ya, its sometimes good to have healthy skepticism and know your limitations and place so to say.  However, in relation to that train of thought, what I'm saying is the fact that thought/perception/human consciousness "exist or are taking place" is proof in of itself that "something" is going on no matter what its cosmology or ontology, what ever this mystery is, IS or IS taking place, and its taking place before you even write it down or put it into words, and its obvious because this interaction is going on now (although I am now since we are talking). 

Its so simple its almost stupid, forget what nonduality, god, consciousness means, thats not what I'm talking about.

Im basically saying, I don't know what anything is, but "something" is going on and what ever it is, is going on, like duh.

Then if you get the stupid simplicity of that, and are not longer trying to figure out what exactly that may be, simply ask and maybe recognize, could what ever the mystery of whats going on, not be going during the inquiry of doing so.....?

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36 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Nahm

No dude lol its just that I don't bother too much replying if the person didn't bother too much being clear as possible about what he is talking about 😊

 That's a dead end answer. It can and it can't. Lol. Even the poor Al has no clue. 

Someone Here, I am with you all the way. I smell devilry from a mile away. It's all about confusion and absolute flashy statements that you would be a fool not to accept. 

Can take the milk from their responses and remove the poison they are trying, unconsciously, to administer. 

Its important to know they really believe they are correct. That's their identity now.

You're woke.

Edited by Dodo

Not Even One
The devil is in the detail
Our true North is Love

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@Someone here Something I made a video on that connects to this conversation is what do you call something that depends on something else to be called anything to begin with.  Check out my link and open the video about "what is fear, what is anything", should be at the top.

Basically is a human a human, or do atoms make up humans?  Is it both?  Or is a human dependent on a combination of environment, oxygen, water, earth, gravity, big bang, blood, microorganism, etc....   Are they all true, or does the most underlying "something" define everything?

Like for example if a human is made up of atoms, its not a human, its atoms labeled as a human....  

Or if its both, because you can see both a human and the atoms at the same time, what then do you call either if they are the same at the same time? (this ones a kicker, a real mind fuck that I think your looking for)

Watched the video, I dont want to type it all here, it adds a lot of food for thought to this question you originally asked.

 

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3 hours ago, Member said:

It's not only form, it's existence. You can be blind and exist, perceive or feel but this still occurs within a conscious mind. For a thing to exist it has to be conscious of itself and does not depend on other consciousness to keep on living. You can die and I can still live long enough without needing you to imagine myself being alive. But consciousness needs to make sense of existence so it project things outside of it, no matter what form or sensation it takes. Form is always changing but it isn't 'outside'. It is a mirror of you, a projection of your own mind.

4 hours ago, Member said:

@Dodo Dude for something to exist there has to be some motion or change of some sort. Without time, nothing exists. Without a mind, there is no time. Mind precedes time. So how can you doubt that the is nothing outside of consciousness? Start thinking logically instead of throwing this "not knowing" dumb teaching. You're encouraging ignorance. Being spiritual doesn't equal to being naive and ignorant.

Look bro, Member and Leo and Nahm and anyone. These things you're saying are true. It is amazing teaching, but it is poisoned, it is not complete until it is humble, and not fake humble. Not look humble. To actually know you can't know all, as actual Awareness, now, you realise you can as a fact not be aware of anything outside of awareness. Its the next step. I do not mean what you are saying is wrong,ik saying its incomplete. 

Even If there is nothing there or if there is something there - YOU will not know. And never will know. That's a profound seeing NOW.

It's just as wrong to believe there is nothing there as it is to believe there is something there. Its unknowable. You do the same error the materialist does by being a consciousnessist. Its based on an assumption. Be honest. 

@Leo Gura I wonder what you will respond to this, maybe to take 5meo?. I am here to sincerely help, not to confirm.  You have given me a lot and Im not going to fail you by telling you what you want to hear. You were closer to authenticity and your highest self in the past I have seen this. and your past self is the one who gave me the tools to do this. Don't kill the innocence and don't say to yourself that I am just blabbing. All this im doing out of love and not to be a parrot. I'm sure you know something is wrong here, radical honesty is required. I've been given a vision, I have seen who you are at the most true level. 

Edited by Dodo

Not Even One
The devil is in the detail
Our true North is Love

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50 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Look bro, Member and Leo and Nahm and anyone. These things you're saying are true. It is amazing teaching, but it is poisoned, it is not complete until it is humble, and not fake humble. Not look humble. To actually know you can't know all, as actual Awareness, now, you realise you can as a fact not be aware of anything outside of awareness. Its the next step. I do not mean what you are saying is wrong,ik saying its incomplete. 

Even If there is nothing there or if there is something there - YOU will not know. And never will know. That's a profound seeing NOW.

It's just as wrong to believe there is nothing there as it is to believe there is something there. Its unknowable. You do the same error the materialist does by being a consciousnessist. Its based on an assumption. Be honest. 

@Leo Gura I wonder what you will respond to this, maybe to take 5meo?. I am here to sincerely help, not to confirm.  You have given me a lot and Im not going to fail you by telling you what you want to hear. You were closer to authenticity and your highest self in the past I have seen this. and your past self is the one who gave me the tools to do this. Don't kill the innocence and don't say to yourself that I am just blabbing. All this im doing out of love and not to be a parrot. I'm sure you know something is wrong here, radical honesty is required. I've been given a vision, I have seen who you are at the most true level. 

7 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Trying to go meta on existence by dissecting it into thought and perception, and whatever else it could be.

Sounds like you may be having similar hookups to Someonehere, so I thought I'd share with you what I shared with him.

"Ok to clarify again what I'm saying since you seem to boil down what I'm saying to the field of thought/perception/human consciousness, and as such those capacities are an inherently limiting and couldn't possibly see beyond into what possibly may be?  Is this kinda your contention?

Because ya, its sometimes good to have healthy skepticism and know your limitations and place so to say.  However, in relation to that train of thought, what I'm saying is the fact that thought/perception/human consciousness or just the acknowledgement that comprehension is going on this moment "exist or is taking place" is proof in of itself that "something" is going on no matter what its cosmology or ontology, what ever this mystery is, IS or IS taking place, and its taking place before you even write it down or put it into words, and its obvious because this interaction is going on now (although I am now since we are talking). 

Its so simple its almost stupid, forget what nonduality, god, consciousness means, thats not what I'm talking about.

Im basically saying, I don't know what anything is, but "something" is going on and what ever it is, is going on, like duh.

Then if you get the stupid simplicity of that, and are not longer trying to figure out what exactly that may be, simply ask and maybe recognize, could what ever the mystery of whats going on, not be going during the inquiry of doing so, and if no, then whats going on now..... the mystery of what is?

Pretty stupidly simple and may seem unimportant, almost like saying salty tastes salty right,...... right.....AMAZING.

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