Why can’t rape be objectively wrong?

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, fryingLotus said:

Overall I am just trying to touch on this potentially distorted view of non-duality that some seem to have.

I get what you mean but i think the idea of non-duality as cold and uncompassionate is most likely a projection of those that only have a logical understanding of non-duality rather than an experiential one. If you have a logical understanding and you like the idea of it, you may think that to get to live in a non-dual state you need to brainwash yourself and convince yourself that there is no you. This is way too much activity and as you say ego cycling. Ultimately its about letting go and acceptance, acceptance is almost inter-changable with love, so to fully accept or love everything is the basis of non-duality but its not a doing, its not an action, its a letting go.  

The ultimate compassionate thing to do is to help others realise they dont need to suffer, which is what teachers aim to do, it may include seeing death (and everything) as a happening rather than a thing happening to you and it may look uncompassionate from a particular state of consciousness but from a higher state it looks very different. If you want freedom you can not take your self with you. 

[Leo Gura]

17 hours ago, Nahm said:

How exactly is what a rapist thinks known?

How is what lots of men believe known?

You can talk to them and get a feel for their worldviews.

I've hung out with and listened to a lot of guys in the pickup community. They tend to treat rape as a joke. Some of them are actual rapists. When speaking with such guys, they clearly don't think of rape as anything wrong or harmful.

A lot of immature guys tend to think of rape like this:

"Well, if I got raped by a hot girl, that would be cool and I would be happy, therefore, rape isn't a big deal. Those feminist/SJW types are just making a big deal out of nothing. Besides, girls are sluts and whores anyway, so what difference does it make?"

It's a very self-centered view of sex. Women are simply seen as convenient objects to satisfy one's own sexual needs, and then discarded. The belief is, they are all sluts anyway, so they lose nothing and they aren't really hurt.

[lmfao]

@Gohabsgo it's fine man. You can see "cultivating morality" as something which raises your consciousness. 

Perhaps if you value high consciousness you will value morality. 

Or maybe someone will give me a zen bitch slap and say I'm speaking nonsense. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by lmfao

[purerogue]

Because everything can be wrong, for some people smallest thing might seem bad, for others they are not problem, I know it might seem simplistic, but it goes for everything, even things that someone does against your will, you make a fuss about it , or you don't you are the one who draws borders, so yes, nothing can be objectively wrong in large scale, but it can be wrong in scale of culture for example, in the end it is individual who dictate what is wrong for him and how things impact him, not to say it as easy as to change what he see as wrong and right, more of life long circumstance.

[Nahm]

@Leo Gura

Thanks. Make sense. Those I’ve talked with over the last few years are in the setting of having sought out someone to talk to from the suffering of the karma, or conscience. 

[Nobody_Here]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You can talk to them and get a feel for their worldviews.

I've hung out with and listened to a lot of guys in the pickup community. They tend to treat rape as a joke. Some of them are actual rapists. When speaking with such guys, they clearly don't think of rape as anything wrong or harmful.

A lot of immature guys tend to think of rape like this:

"Well, if I got raped by a hot girl, that would be cool and I would be happy, therefore, rape isn't a big deal. Those feminist/SJW types are just making a big deal out of nothing. Besides, girls are sluts and whores anyway, so what difference does it make?"

It's a very self-centered view of sex. Women are simply seen as convenient objects to satisfy one's own sexual needs, and then discarded. The belief is, they are all sluts anyway, so they lose nothing and they aren't really hurt.

I’ve encountered men who believe that way. The problem with that POV, even from the rapist’s perspective, is that you get what you ask for. One male I spoke to was very upset that all of his girlfriends were sluts and whores. They all cheated on him and had no self-respect, no class, no ambition, and were not marriageable. I laughed at him and asked, “What did you expect? If you think all women are sluts and whores, you will only be attracted to sluts and whores and vice versa. The high class women you dream of banging will be repelled by you.”

Now, before you fuss at me about my interpretation of that perspective:

1) An amoeba has no concept of rape because when it reproduces, it does so by mitosis (it splits in two.) To an amoeba, there is no such thing as rape. 
2) To a human at the red stage of spiral dynamics or the opportunist stage of ego, rape is an act of dominance of the strong over the weak, and it is right to be strong, so there is nothing wrong with rape. Rape can likely be justified at other stages, but those stages it is the most obvious to me. 
3) At very high stages of consciousness and ego transcendence, free will is an illusion, and so is the body. Rape (at a lower level of consciousness) is generally considered a violation of the body and free will because there was no consent, so at that very high level of consciousness, rape cannot exist, either.

That all being said, most humans in Western society exist at a conventional or post-conventional ego state and are at blue/orange/green/yellow parts of the spiral, where rape is viewed as real and most certainly wrong or at the very least illegal.  To get along with the rest of society it’s socially advantageous to understand that viewpoint, but it’s even more helpful imo to understand the others, at the very least for self-protection.

[Hello from Russia]

How your brain would react if your girlfriend or wife would ask you to rape her very hard? They seem/tend to need it sometimes

Edited September 5, 2020 by Hello from Russia

[Danioover9000]

@Hello from Russia

12 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

How your brain would react if your girlfriend or wife would ask you to rape her very hard? They seem/tend to need it sometimes

   Firstly, there's no such thing as a brain reacting, reacting is what people do, because brains only have 'frequencies' and 'neural activity' and are stuck inside heads. Brains are fleshy information collecting things. However, brains are not people, so to quote random ancient artist 'learn to see with your eyes because your brain will make you go blind.'.

   Secondly, if sex is done properly, gfs and wives would be satisfied deeply. Maybe go fishing next time relaxed, not so tensely.

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Hello from Russia said:

How your brain would react if your girlfriend or wife would ask you to rape her very hard? They seem/tend to need it sometimes

That isn't rape, that's normal sex.

Every girlfriend will basically ask me to rape her. But that is not true rape. Rape is when they ask you not to do it and you do it anyway.

[Ibgdrgnxxv]

What is rape? 

That's the answer to this thread. 

[Carl-Richard]

18 minutes ago, Ibgdrgnxxv said:

What is rape? 

That's the answer to this thread. 

That's a question, but alright.

[Ibgdrgnxxv]

 

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's a question, but alright.

(The answer to) that is the answer to this thread. 

[Geromekevin]

On 04/09/2020 at 2:28 PM, Nahm said:

How exactly is what a rapist thinks known?

Are there you’s, views, rapists, and epistemic positions in the absolute sense?

Here you can see what evil they believe:

https://youtu.be/WpgDPwo64lo

[gswva]

God obviously doesn't want to rape you. You imagined yourself being raped. You are not aware of what you want.

I'm only speaking in a neutral conceptual way. It's still a whole lot of fear to overcome and that's as hard as it gets, but the rapist is also facing the same issue. You deserve all the kindness.

Edited September 6, 2020 by gswva

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Geromekevin said:

Here you can see what evil they believe:

Indeed. Only love will do. 

[SgtPepper]

On 9/3/2020 at 3:57 PM, Psychic crocodile said:

@SgtPepper what does evil mean to you?

Evil to me is synonymous with division, ignorance, selfishness, especially when you are conscious of how one's action effects others.

It can also be characterized with impulsivity, short-term thinking/planning, and hedonism.

At it's core, it's a strong sense of division from yourself and the world around you.

This leads to an imbalance of character and actions. Instead of functioning from absolute and relative standpoint in unison, one functions in a relative standpoint exclusively.

On 9/4/2020 at 3:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

Harm is a relative, subjective, biased, egoic notion.

YOU think rape is harmful. A rapist certainly doesn't think that. And your view has no higher epistemic position than that of a rapist in the absolute sense.

Lots of men genuinely believe that rape is not harmful. And that is true from the POV.

They don't think it's harmful, until it happens to them.

Lots of rapists and Men are also not aware of their own devilish qualities. They only think its okay because they have not been in that absolute standpoint, and are so deeply entrenched in their relative perspective.

Is not the awareness of one's devilish qualities or awareness of one's impact on others already a higher epistemic position? 

Even as we go up the spiral, we adopt more actions and policies that benefit the collective.

Are there not a bunch of criminals who've essentially repented and given up harmful actions/routines because they intuitively know that it does not lead to lasting fulfillment.

 

[Carl-Richard]

On 6.9.2020 at 5:27 AM, Ibgdrgnxxv said:

 

(The answer to) that is the answer to this thread. 

There are an infinite amount of possible answers to a question.

[Ibgdrgnxxv]

I think this thread is over?

 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

They don't think it's harmful, until it happens to them.

Yes, exactly. And that is relativity.

[Leo Gura]

Locking since this thread has run its course.