Anon212

Shunyamurti Criticising Psychedelic

75 posts in this topic

Essentially he says that these phenomenal changes to consciousness can turn out to be a problem. They offer temporary relief and then one returns to animalistic desires and so they can be seen in a way as a cop out. The ego will come back. He did actually become quite harsh saying that it is all a 'delusion' and that in reality they will 'stunt' you also claiming that it is an illusory transcendence and not the real Godhead that one discovers/uncovers. "God consciousness is nothing like that". He is among many other 'enlightened' teachers including Sadhguru and Krishnamurti who have criticised them.

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Timestamp: 39:15

Love to hear your thoughts guys because recently I have been heavily invested in self-inquiry. I have had an awakening and was looking into the possibility of delving deeper with psychedelics. When I hear such things from people whom I've followed to get to where I am - I am slightly put off.

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Psychedelics are effective, if you want to do them you should. Although in my experience I have found kriya yoga or chanting certain mantras to be more effective than psychedelics. But psychedelics will get you further than meditation or self inquiry 

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4 hours ago, Anon212 said:

Essentially he says that these phenomenal changes to consciousness can turn out to be a problem. They offer temporary relief and then one returns to animalistic desires and so they can be seen in a way as a cop out. The ego will come back. He did actually become quite harsh saying that it is all a 'delusion' and that in reality they will 'stunt' you also claiming that it is an illusory transcendence and not the real Godhead that one discovers/uncovers. "God consciousness is nothing like that". He is among many other 'enlightened' teachers including Sadhguru and Krishnamurti who have criticised them.

In my direct experience they are one in the same. True God Consciousness is independent of state. Sober, tripping, drunk, high, caffeinated, doesn't matter. If Shunyamurti is enlightened he knows this. If Shunyamurti is teaching about chasing states, then yes sober God Consciousness is different than tripping God Consciousness. 

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3 hours ago, bobbyward said:

Psychedelics are effective, if you want to do them you should. Although in my experience I have found kriya yoga or chanting certain mantras to be more effective than psychedelics. But psychedelics will get you further than meditation or self inquiry 

Interesting. Meditation has gotten me farther than Kriya yoga or mantra. I think it just depends on the person.

 

@Anon212 If you've been going hard at self inquiry, this would be a perfect time to crack open the mind with psychedelics imo. The increase in Self Inquiry would act as a primer to really dive deeply into a psychedelic trip. Keep up the self inquiry even while tripping and you'll most likely have a breakthrough. 

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I didn't see this particular video but I heard him criticizing them in another one (the one about the complexification of spiritual theory).

From the perspective of Self-Realization as seen by Jnana Yoga, he is actually right (IMO). It seems highly unlikely that one can go from I am this, to I am, to I-I, to beyond the I with the help of psychedelics because the psychedelic experience as wild, eye-opening, wisdom packed, healing, etc as it can be, still is but an experience, still is but a thing in the world of forms. So what's the problem then ? Why not do with the potentiation of psychedelics what can be done sober, why wouldn't it be easier, or at least the same ? 

Because when you are sober (from psychedelics) you are in familiar ground, you are of earth, you will not be easily shaken to the core by something perceived as "over there." you will not be tripping on aliens or the colors of the wall before you, you will not be confused by some shroomey entity or some weird machine-elves, you will not forget half of what happens, etc.

So I think for most people, what Shunyamurti says actually applies.

Micro-dosing seems acceptable (& probably helpful) within that frame though.

Edited by SriSriJustinBieber

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Shunyamurti is what I imagine Terence McKenna to be if he would've been enlightened :D

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Unless shunyamurti has an extensive history of using and studying psychedelics, then his perspective is meaningless in regards to the subject of psychedelics.

 

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Nonsense.

An Awakening is an Awakening. Doesn't matter how it happens.

What I do think it happens is that Awakening via sober methods is more possible that the person was ready to experience therefore the ego might not have such a big ego-backlash. With Awakening via Psychedelics, a lot of people might pop them, have a realization, but since it was "forced" the ego might not be ready and ego backlash and "retention" might be lower.

However if you use Psychedelics as potentiator they will be very useful. Incredibly useful. Just make sure you are not self-deluding yourself. 

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As a 'non-enlightened' dude, I might be completely off here; but to me, this seems like saying that using a GPS navigation system is useless because as long as you're staring at the screen of your GPS, you're not driving towards your destination. Well, guess what Einstein, the idea is to first look at the screen and then drive to wherever the GPS is directing you towards. Ta-da!

If you seriousy think that the red dot on the screen is the actual destination, then I've got a nice bridge to sell you...

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Psychedelics are the best tool for achieving conciousness peaks. No question about that. Almost foolproof.

But if you want long term results they can't be your only tool by any means. 

 

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Shunyamurti has previously spoken of the benefits of psychedelics. He has even recommended using them in the awakening process.

I think in this instance he is speaking of psychedelics as a sort of holiday for the ego to use as a temporary relief from itself that it then uses to justify its existence further. I think that is a fair assessment.

However, Shunyamurti is a very spontaneous speaker and at times is sloppy with his choice of language. It ends up looking like he contradicts himself. This is something he clearly is not aware of, and no one at the ashram seems to be checking him.

 


Divest from the conceptual. Experience the actual.

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10 hours ago, SriSriJustinBieber said:

I didn't see this particular video but I heard him criticizing them in another one (the one about the complexification of spiritual theory).

From the perspective of Self-Realization as seen by Jnana Yoga, he is actually right (IMO). It seems highly unlikely that one can go from I am this, to I am, to I-I, to beyond the I with the help of psychedelics because the psychedelic experience as wild, eye-opening, wisdom packed, healing, etc as it can be, still is but an experience, still is but a thing in the world of forms. So what's the problem then ? Why not do with the potentiation of psychedelics what can be done sober, why wouldn't it be easier, or at least the same ? 

Because when you are sober (from psychedelics) you are in familiar ground, you are of earth, you will not be easily shaken to the core by something perceived as "over there." you will not be tripping on aliens or the colors of the wall before you, you will not be confused by some shroomey entity or some weird machine-elves, you will not forget half of what happens, etc.

So I think for most people, what Shunyamurti says actually applies.

Micro-dosing seems acceptable (& probably helpful) within that frame though.

If you are truly self realized, these wild experiences will not touch the self. Psychedelics can be a great litmus test to see just how awake you really are. How can one claim to know the self if aliens and wild experiences are still shaking them to their core?

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1 hour ago, Consilience said:

If you are truly self realized, these wild experiences will not touch the self. Psychedelics can be a great litmus test to see just how awake you really are. How can one claim to know the self if aliens and wild experiences are still shaking them to their core?

Dude, you have no idea how a psychedelic can shake you.

Smoke a breakthrough dose of salvia and you will turn into a glass of orange juice, and all your enlightenment will melt away along with your sense of human life.

What most enlightened people talk about is weak-sauces states of conventional consciousness. They have no idea how deep consciousness can really go. It is not possible to know such things without serious breakthrough trips on a wide variety of substances.

There is no way you will mediate or self-inquire your way to such radical degrees of consciousness.

Most teacher even acknowledge that it's possible to become conscious as an inanimate object.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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1 hour ago, Consilience said:

If you are truly self realized, these wild experiences will not touch the self. Psychedelics can be a great litmus test to see just how awake you really are. How can one claim to know the self if aliens and wild experiences are still shaking them to their core?

+1 bro. That's one of the most useful cases of psychedelics, you're enlightened? Take a kg of mushrooms just to make sure.

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most teachers don't even acknowledge that it's possible to become conscious as an inanimate object.

Its called a samadhi experience m8. Well known amongst spiritual teachers. You can reach salvia/mushroom like absorption with an object through samadhi practice. Shamans have sober practices using drumming to literally BE an animal like a bird, or wolf or bear. I've done it before, you literally forget you're a human and literally BE a bear. That's why in video games like world of warcraft, shamans are the ones that turn into different animals, its based on 'real' shamanic practices. 

Also I'm not sure how far this particular point is gonna go, but I'll write it anyway. The rigour of spiritual practices in the past was not the same as the rigour it is today. There are stories of students meditating in caves for 40 years, without distractions of mobile phones, computers, scientific paradigm, etc. The potential of the human race to get far with sober methods was much higher in the past than it is today. So psychedelic states that you believe are profound were quite normal for students in the past. You're living in a different time, and its valuable and wise to take that into consideration relatively speaking. 

Absolutely speaking, what I'm saying is, because time and the ego/psyche is imaginary, there are dimensions in consciousness where sober methods do reach psychedelic states, due to God being infinity/tautology. 

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What most enlightened people talk about is weak-sauces states of conventional consciousness. They have no idea how deep consciousness can really go. It is not possible to know such things without serious breakthrough trips on a wide variety of substances.

Some people have transcended the notion of a psychedelic, seen through it, saw how its just a placebo effect, and saw how they were creating it. I've spoken to them face to face, and they were avid psychedelic users before realising of such fact. You have to throw away your dualistic notions of 'psychedelic' on the spiritual path at some point, otherwise you're holding onto a dualistic aspect of reality for no good reason. 

 

Edited by electroBeam

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@electroBeam That's all cute, but it doesn't address the substance of what I said.

Becoming a bear in your dreams is not the same thing as a breakthrough salvia trip.

And shamans used psychedelics! So it's rather odd to use shamans as a case against psychedelics.

Becoming a bear is not the same level of freak out as becoming a toilet seat.

Nobody here is gonna mediate in a cave for 40 years. So citing such examples is absurd.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Smoke a breakthrough dose of salvia and you will turn into a glass of orange juice

My cousins friend accidentally ingested an entire sheet of lsd trying to sneak it into a festival (it was taped to his bare back and he absorbed it by his pours whilst sweating).

He is now in a psych ward and is convinced he is a glass of orange juice, and screams when anyone comes near him because he thinks they will knock him over. 

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If you get triggered by the fact that somebody dismisses/criticizes psychedelics, it might worth taking a look why you react it that way. If the shoe fits.

@Mada_ Holy shit dude :D 

Edited by nistake

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15 minutes ago, Mada_ said:

screams when anyone comes near him because he thinks they will knock him over.

What about if someone walks in with a straw? :P


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Becoming a bear in your dreams is not the same thing as a breakthrough salvia trip.

You mean the waking dream? Because that's where you become a bear in. Not some virtual dream like what happens when you sleep. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

And shamans used psychedelics! So it's rather odd to use shamans as a case against psychedelics.

Why would you make a case against psychedelics? What are you trying to get against?

My point was actually more about how psychedelics are still within the dream. I don't really get why you actually think psychedelics are beyond the dream. Enlightened people are beyond the dream, they are God, they are prior to psychedelics. And my point was, by putting psychedelics on a pedastool, and saying these enlightened people don't know what they are talking about in terms of psychedelics, is putting the horse before the cart.

Your argument sounds like this: "Lucas Arts has no idea of the power of the death star. Lucas arts are talking about low level understanding that star wars is just a movie. Lucas arts should go to a planet and get blasted by the death star, then they'll see what the death start truly is".

If you're enlightened, you're 10000% aware that you are creating the death star, and you remember what it is like prior to the death star. The above sounds absurd because its as if you're not conscious of what you've created. If you're enlightened you're conscious of everything. No pebble left unturned. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Nobody here is gonna mediate in a cave for 40 years. So citing such examples is absurd.

I know but they did in the past. And spiritual teachings we use today are largely from the past. 

Edited by electroBeam

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