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can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

202 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, The observer said:

a mere shift in the state of consciousness, which means absolutely nothing except whatever meaning you give to it.

 very true! 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

OK so why you think you can debunk everything I say by just saying they are just concepts and thoughts? . 

I empathise with what you are saying and I apologise if I’m coming off abrupt. But much of what you are generating as a discussion supersedes the mind. If you were speaking about concepts relative to concepts then this would not be necessary. However, the experience of a psychedelic cannot be conceptually understood nor the consciousness from which it rests within.

 

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13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I can't take a psychedelic for various of reasons. I know we can't ask for sourcing here. But if I could PM you about it would  appreciate it. 

Sorry, I cannot answer sourcing questions.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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10 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

I empathise with what you are saying and I apologise if I’m coming off abrupt. But much of what you are generating as a discussion supersedes the mind. If you were speaking about concepts relative to concepts then this would not be necessary. However, the experience of a psychedelic cannot be conceptually understood nor the consciousness from which it rests within.

 

I respect your opinion.  And I know that's most people's opinion here.  I'm not trying to debate or disprove psychedelics as nonsense or mere hallucinations. I thought the video is interesting and offering the opposite perspective always reveals truth from falsehood. So there is no need to take these studies as debunking spiritual experiences but looking at it from different perspective is never a unuseful thing. 

Edited by Someone here

"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sorry, I cannot answer sourcing questions.

OK no problem. Understandable :)


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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15 minutes ago, Someone here said:

OK so why you think you can debunk everything I say by just saying they are just concepts and thoughts?

He's not trying to "debunk" you. There is no debate here.

I feel like that's all this forum is sometimes. It's just semantics chasing semantics.

The colour analogy helps. You're saying "Explain the colour Yellow to me" and he's saying "We can't use words to express Yellow, It's all around you. Just look." and you're saying. "That's not evidence, explain it to me" 

You can't explain it no matter how much you want to know it. You just have to wake up and see that Yellow was here this whole time. It's not hiding. It's just a perspective shift.

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8 minutes ago, JayG84 said:

He's not trying to "debunk" you. There is no debate here.

I feel like that's all this forum is sometimes. It's just semantics chasing semantics.

The colour analogy helps. You're saying "Explain the colour Yellow to me" and he's saying "We can't use words to express Yellow, It's all around you. Just look." and you're saying. "That's not evidence, explain it to me" 

You can't explain it no matter how much you want to know it. You just have to wake up and see that Yellow was here this whole time. It's not hiding. It's just a perspective shift.

I think you are confusing two things here. This topic is not specifically about explaining reality or awakening but about just explaining the psychedelic experience.  


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

This topic is not specifically about explaining reality or awakening but about just explaining the psychedelic experience.  

It's all the same. The same problem persists. It's is not explainable with words, concept, and ideas. Just look for yourself. You'll save a lot of time and mental energy.

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22 minutes ago, JayG84 said:

He's not trying to "debunk" you. There is no debate here.

I feel like that's all this forum is sometimes. It's just semantics chasing semantics.

The colour analogy helps. You're saying "Explain the colour Yellow to me" and he's saying "We can't use words to express Yellow, It's all around you. Just look." and you're saying. "That's not evidence, explain it to me" 

You can't explain it no matter how much you want to know it. You just have to wake up and see that Yellow was here this whole time. It's not hiding. It's just a perspective shift.

Pretty much.

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I think you are confusing two things here. This topic is not specifically about explaining reality or awakening but about just explaining the psychedelic experience.  

The problem remains the same. Explaining the actuality of something requires whatever tools are comprehensive enough in order to explain it. Science cannot do this, it’s tools are in comprehensive, just as any tool is. It’s that simple man. No conceptual framework can explain a psychedelic experience for what it is. For that, you must enter it yourself.

This is my view anyhow.

Food for thought: The very point of a thing can not be what is being used to convey it.

In other words, what is used to explain a thing becomes irrelevant to thing itself. The word “tree” does not represent what a tree is. 

This what they call a tautology.

Edited by Jacobsrw

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1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@Jacobsrwwhen you take a DMT you see entities.  People think these entities are immaterial ghosts or something.  According to science they are just material visuals caused by altered perception centers in the brain that's affected by the drug. That's what I meant.  That's not my opinion again. That's what scientific study says. For me that's the most reasonable explanation. 

The interesting thing is that they all see the same entities which are supposedly imaginary. The same thing happens in sleep paralysis where people all over the world share almost the same visions.

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@Someone here

I´ll try to explain it with an analogy of a videogame.

Imagine that you are a character inside a videogame and the videogame is programmed with a certain typed language and a certain rules.

All characters, are programmed to understand and interact precisely with this typed language and with its rules. This is applicable to 100% of characters. Until know there´s no way out of this typed language and rules because that´s just how the programming is.

But suddenly imagine we inject into this videogame a hack. It´s an script that if run against the characters, they will be able to step out of the typed language and rules for some time. During this time they will be able to completely think and operate withouth 0 rules. This could mean even realizing that they are inside a videogame and this videogame is not reality. But just a part of it. And precisely a very small part of it, of infinite possibilites.

To the realization of the existence of this whole reality, and not just a videogame, they will call this Infinity. Also, some of them they will no longer consider the script an object using the typed language of the videogame, because the script itself let them saw that actually the typed language and the rules of the videogame were just "programmed". They weren´t really grounded in anything.

Now substitue script by psychedelic, videogame by what you call "real life", typed language by logical thinking and linear thinking, and rules by science and materalism. 

I hope you got an idea.

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25 minutes ago, Member said:

The interesting thing is that they all see the same entities which are supposedly imaginary. The same thing happens in sleep paralysis where people all over the world share almost the same visions.

LMAO. So, now you're using consensus as proof of objectivity?

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12 hours ago, Someone here said:

That's a good way to end any conversation btw. It works. 

There is another way to look at it. It can be perceived as closing or opening a door. Opening a door to story creation can be seen as a beginning that allows one to tap into creative potential. 

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11 hours ago, Someone here said:

I think you are confusing two things here. This topic is not specifically about explaining reality or awakening but about just explaining the psychedelic experience.  

The psychedelic experience is the equivalent of yellow. You cannot explain it with science and hope to communicate the experience accurately, or even effectively. Until yellow is experienced, you wont know it. Until psychedelics are experienced, you wont know it. 

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10 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

@Someone here

I´ll try to explain it with an analogy of a videogame.

Imagine that you are a character inside a videogame and the videogame is programmed with a certain typed language and a certain rules.

All characters, are programmed to understand and interact precisely with this typed language and with its rules. This is applicable to 100% of characters. Until know there´s no way out of this typed language and rules because that´s just how the programming is.

But suddenly imagine we inject into this videogame a hack. It´s an script that if run against the characters, they will be able to step out of the typed language and rules for some time. During this time they will be able to completely think and operate withouth 0 rules. This could mean even realizing that they are inside a videogame and this videogame is not reality. But just a part of it. And precisely a very small part of it, of infinite possibilites.

To the realization of the existence of this whole reality, and not just a videogame, they will call this Infinity. Also, some of them they will no longer consider the script an object using the typed language of the videogame, because the script itself let them saw that actually the typed language and the rules of the videogame were just "programmed". They weren´t really grounded in anything.

Now substitue script by psychedelic, videogame by what you call "real life", typed language by logical thinking and linear thinking, and rules by science and materalism. 

I hope you got an idea.

That's a nifty analogy :)

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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What we will be able to do if we get advanced enough is too see the similarities in effect of different psychedelics, and create scientific models which we would be able to use to create new psychedelics in the way we desire them to be.

In the same way, in 1000s of years, maybe neuroscientists would be able to make you enlightened by fucking with your brain. If 5-MeO can do it in an instant there is no saying human doctors couldn’t get to the same level.

 


Elevators of my mind,

Up and down a million times

Loving you.

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18 minutes ago, DaHonorableCourt said:

What we will be able to do if we get advanced enough is too see the similarities in effect of different psychedelics, and create scientific models which we would be able to use to create new psychedelics in the way we desire them to be.

In the same way, in 1000s of years, maybe neuroscientists would be able to make you enlightened by fucking with your brain. If 5-MeO can do it in an instant there is no saying human doctors couldn’t get to the same level.

 

First off, enlightenment is not substance dependent. The psychedelic experience is a state and a highly integrated one at that. However, it’s temporary and provides the insights one may require for enlightenment but is in-equivalent to awakening itself. 

Secondly, science does not even understand a psychedelic experience let alone the varying degrees of them. All science can do is map arbitrary neurological activity and link this to ones “altered state”. This is completely void of any real value.

Im open to science having the capacity to possibly induce an imitative psychedelic experience. However, I do not at all see them inducing enlightenment. Enlightenment is not something you induce it is the opposite of inducement. It’s the disappearance of all self propagating phenomena. This is far beyond the depths of science in my view. Science is way too premature to even consider this.

 

 

Edited by Jacobsrw

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44 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

Enlightenment is not something you induce. 

Leo enters the chat lol


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Leo enters the chat lol

There is no Leo ;)

Leo I think may be open to the idea that awakening can be induced.... Hence his heavy involvement with 5-MEO for awakening. I definitely am not open to it.

Go awaken then tell me if you still maintain a belief that enlightenment can be induced xD The whole “process” of awakening dissolves becoming no more real than a bed time story.

Edited by Jacobsrw

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