Where Does Being Vegan Fall In With This Truth?

[Nickinicki343]

So, I have just started watching the enlightenment videos and everything is really making sense and clicking with me.

But there are a few random things I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. I have been vegan for ethical reasons for a few years- so if the world is a field of awareness and only consists of perceptions- is there a right and wrong? How are plants different from animals within this 'no self' realization?"

thoughts?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Nickinicki343

[Azrael]

8 hours ago, Nickinicki343 said:

How are plants different from animals within this 'no self' realization?"

They ultimately aren't. That's the point. An animal, you could say, is a consciousness expressing itself in a higher complexity then maybe plants. And humans are again a little higher in complexity (when we are alive) then animals. As the body dies, it's complexity goes does down - because it doesn't do anything anymore - and goes back to the earth, maybe becomes dust and what not. And at an other place consciousness begins to get more complex again.

One could see it that way. This also transcends your view of ethics. There are no god-given ethics. Look around, you won't find any rules hanging from the trees. Now, one could ask: Why are Buddhists for example then so nice all the time? Because they found out how to lower their amount of suffering by choosing the middle way and not bathing oneself in pleasure or not-doing to achieve this goal. But a real Buddhist knows very well that this is an idea and not the rule of eternity.

[cirkussmile]

Shouldn't vegan be something that comes from within? If you practice presence enough you'll eventually find a truth for you.

Eckhart Tolle and other spiritual leaders do eat meat. Dalai lama eats meat when he's traveling or if someone offer it to him, I've read that and I haven't actually spoke to him but it could be true. 

Couldn't it be harmful if you force yourself to do something you really don't like?

 

Anyone with experience and I would specially hear from someone who went back from vegetarian/vegan to eat meat. 

 

Peace

[Emerald]

On May 2, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Nickinicki343 said:

So, I have just started watching the enlightenment videos and everything is really making sense and clicking with me.

But there are a few random things I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. I have been vegan for ethical reasons for a few years- so if the world is a field of awareness and only consists of perceptions- is there a right and wrong? How are plants different from animals within this 'no self' realization?"

thoughts?

Well, there is no right and wrong in any absolute sense. And there is no value difference between plants, animals, humans, bacteria, fungi, or anything else as value itself, doesn't actually exist. But if you are in alignment with Truth and realize that there's no separation between "you" and anything else, then it makes the most sense to do unto others what you would have them do unto you. To harm another is to harm yourself, so it doesn't make sense to harm someone if you can avoid it. So, Veganism or any other practice designed to reduce suffering is probably the optimal choice for someone pursuing consciousness work as it will get rid of some blind-spots in your consciousness that place illusory gradations of value on different lives. But is it actually wrong or evil to eat meat or dairy; no. Wrong and evil are just thought labels and are illusory and simply used to judge and clarify reality under the human lens. I recently committed to a plant based diet myself.

[HereNowThisMoment]

On May 3, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Shiva said:

Essentially, plants have changed much less than animals evolutionary. Therefore, animals are a more complex beings than plants. 

No, evolution is an ongoing process that occurs constantly in all living things. Animals are  not more evolved, they are differently evolved. 

On May 3, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Shiva said:

The amount of memory that is needed to create a plant is much less than to create say, a cow.

"Memory" is the genome of the organism and there are plants that have more base pairs than animals and vice versa. Genome size alone does not determine the complexity of an organism due to phenomena such as differential gene splicing, protein activation/inactivation, etc. 

On May 3, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Shiva said:

If you eat something, your body has to digest it somehow.

Your body doesn't "have to" digest everything and cannot digest everything. Cellulose is a polymer of glucose in plants but due to the type of bonds between molecules and a lack of an enzyme to cleave the bonds it cannot be metabolized by humans. 

On May 3, 2016 at 3:10 AM, Shiva said:

The simpler the thing that you consume, the better it is for your body.

Again, this is just flat-out untrue. Glucose is a monosaccharide, a simple sugar, but if I were to just eat a bunch of glucose I can promise you that I will develop health issues. And in case you mean, "simpler" in the sense of genetic complexity, eating a simple, single-celled organism like E. coli three times a day isn't going to be any better for you. 

 

Also, based on that video, Sadhguru clearly has no real foundation in science so I suggest you get health/diet advice from people who do. 

[jjer94]

@Nickinicki343 When you realize you are "everything and nothing," you will be making a lot less distinctions in your experience. One of the distinctions removed is right and wrong. You become amoral. You do whatever feels right. 

If it feels right to be vegan, you'll be vegan. If it feels right to keep eating meat, you keep eating meat. There comes a point where you realize that EVERY ethical argument is bogus (every argument stance in general), so diet choice just doesn't matter. 

I suggest you avoid wasting time in semantical arguments about stuff that has little to nothing to do with realizing your true nature. Your true nature is beyond all arguments.

Cheers.

[cetus]

@Nickinicki343 Years ago I worked with a guy who practiced meditation and was also a vegetarian. If I was going to the deli for a sandwich for lunch and he wanted something too, it was a cheese sandwich only. He would tell me to make sure they didn't slice the cheese on the same slicer that they used for the meat. He was very adamant about that. One day I asked him why he felt so strongly about not eating meat. He said, when the animal is slaughtered it's body tissue retains a memory of that stressful event and he wanted no parts of that.  It was also a moral thing too to for him not eat meat/animals. That was just bad karma. So I guess it all what you believe in.

[ZenMonkey]

@Nickinicki343

I had this question in mind for a long time as well.

I could see that I had build a lot of dogma around this topic. But lately I am quite happy I can do it in a more and more undogmatic way. So when I can I go for vegan food but when I get invited or somehow something not vegan lands on my plate I just eat it without judging. I still eat mostly vegan because there is a honest love and compassion towards animals and my body just feels better on this kind of diet.

So I think an undogmatic and non judgemental way is a good solution.

[Prabhaker]

@Nickinicki343

Food cannot make you spiritual, but if you are spiritual your food habits will change.

Eating anything will not make much difference. You can be a vegetarian and cruel to the extreme, and violent; you can be a non-vegetarian and kind and loving.  If you meditate you are going to grow new perceptivity, new sensitivity, and you cannot kill animals.

 

[Truth Seekah]

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Ganesh Sundaram

[Shin]

You could be a rapist who torture and kill children, and still be enlightened.

Don't think because you become vegan, you respect others opinions, donate/help charity or whatever else "good" things you do/wants to do, will make any differences, because it won't.

The only thing that will make you realize what you are, is how much you know (really know, not concepts in your mind) that all morals, positions, and beliefs are all illusions.

Everything else is just ego masturbation.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Shin

[Socrates]

On 31/8/2016 at 3:30 PM, Prabhaker said:

@Nickinicki343

Food cannot make you spiritual, but if you are spiritual your food habits will change.

Perfectly said. 

On 4/8/2016 at 2:07 PM, cirkussmile said:

Eckhart Tolle and other spiritual leaders do eat meat. Dalai lama eats meat when he's traveling or if someone offer it to him, I've read that and I haven't actually spoke to him but it could be true. 

That doesn't say anything. They are just spiritual, it doesn't mean anything else. They are humans as well and they have been indoctrinated to that behavior like me and you.

On 4/8/2016 at 4:29 PM, jjer94 said:

If it feels right to be vegan, you'll be vegan. If it feels right to keep eating meat, you keep eating meat.

If it feels right killing people, you kill people. If it feels right raping women, you keep raping women. 

It doesn't matter what you feel. There is right and wrong because we are not conscious enough as a society to do the right thing.

There is no reason mixing spirituality with veganism, except dodging the responsibility of you actions and this doesnt reffer to the op.

[Barna]

Just follow your feelings.  

Does stepping on grass feels the same as stepping on the foot of your dog?
Does cutting a potato in half feels the same as cutting the neck of a chicken?

Personally, I have nothing against eating meat, I just don't want to support with my money the killing of the animals, therefore I don't buy meat.  

[WaveInTheOcean]

Self-honesty is essential to become one with the Truth.

Ask yourself this question:
Knowing that you have plenty of healthy vegetarian food options available, would you still want to or be able to -- every now and then --  directly, physically kill -- in any way you want -- a living mammal like a pig, calve or a cow in order to eat it for your own pleasure? 

- If your answer to this question is 'yes' and you regularly buy beef or pork in the super market, then no problem; you are honest with yourself, and your inner values are aligned with your outer actions. Good.

- If your answer to this question is 'no' and you regularly buy beef or pork in the super market, then there is a problem; you are dishonest with yourself, and your inner values are not aligned with your outer actions. Not good.

- If your answer to this question is 'no' and you never buy beef or pork in the super market, then no problem; you are honest with yourself, and your inner values are aligned with your outer actions. Good.

Edited May 6, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[Socrates]

The fact you think that meat is even food is a result of indoctrination. We have all been indoctirnated to believe meat is food. Like people in the past have been indoctrinated to believe blacks are slaves, jews should die, women are lower class and the earth is flat. Meat is not food, you are not designed to consume it. The only reason you consume it is because it is tasty and you have been manipulated by one of the biggest businesses of this planet.

This is where leo has gone terribly wrong, when he says stuff like "no good or evil". In practise yeah good and evil are just thoughts but still that doesn't justify harming other conscious beings, humans or not. In this case the "no good or evil" position is just a tool for apathetic behavior.

[Shin]

So you're saying that animals that eat other animals are not really eating ?

Edited May 6, 2017 by Shin

[Martin123]

@Nickinicki343

there isnt really a reason to limit yourself what to eat through any type of identification. Being vegan is just a silly rule. You can eat vegan and not even think about it being vegan.

Eat what makes you function optimally and fulfills you.

Or not. 

Whatever resonates.

[jjer94]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

The fact you think that meat is even food is a result of indoctrination. We have all been indoctirnated to believe meat is food. Like people in the past have been indoctrinated to believe blacks are slaves, jews should die, women are lower class and the earth is flat. Meat is not food, you are not designed to consume it. The only reason you consume it is because it is tasty and you have been manipulated by one of the biggest businesses of this planet.

This is where leo has gone terribly wrong, when he says stuff like "no good or evil". In practise yeah good and evil are just thoughts but still that doesn't justify harming other conscious beings, humans or not. In this case the "no good or evil" position is just a tool for apathetic behavior.

I changed my mind recently on diet. Before, I said "If it feels right to be vegan, you'll be vegan. If it feels right to keep eating meat, you keep eating meat." Now I say, if you want to align with your innate human happiness, don't eat meat. 

I actually agree with you on the "we are not designed to consume meat" premise. Meat is food for carnivores. Humans are not carnivores. We're frugivores.

Meat, when you eat it alone, is actually not tasty at all. What makes it tasty is the stuff you add to it. And I doubt anyone would be willing to eat meat in its raw form, let alone rip open a rabbit with your bare...fingernails? 

But fruit. We're tall enough to reach it, we have opposable thumbs to pluck it, we have fingernails to peel it, and we have the perfect teeth to eat it. In its raw form, it's absolutely delicious. It has all the nutrition we need, including water. When you eat it, you feel more energized, not bloated and lethargic. 

This is not a matter of good and evil. This is a matter of alignment. It's not bad per se to eat meat; you're just not aligned with your body's design. And when you're not in alignment, you become unhealthy. Physical unhealthiness leads to psychological unhappiness.

We say it's "not right" to harm other conscious beings because we have innate empathy. Empathy is basically projecting our sense of self onto other animals. Again, it goes back to alignment. It's not bad per se to harm other conscious beings, but it is out of alignment. 

 

[aurum]

I actually made a video about veganism recently. So I'll weigh in on this.

Essentially, both the absolutists and the relativists are right.

In the absolute sense, there are no morals, no values, no rules, no "shoulds". And if you appoach veganism from the perspective of "trying to do what's good, even though I don't really care" than you're missing the point. That's the ego trying to hold up a self-concept.

However, one of the shocking things I've found about this whole awakening process is that I have naturally shifted towards veganism.

Why? Because I can't not.

I love how it makes me feel. It resonates with me on an energetic level.

Plus, I genuinely care more about the suffering of others than I ever have. When I see another being genuinely suffer, I feel it as if it's my own suffering.

You can't still want to cause others to suffer once you see that. And the slaughter of animals undoubtably is creating huge amounts of suffering from them.

I'm not saying I'm some perfect, compassionate being of light. I definitely have my moments of petty self-importance. But I've seen that there is something beyond societal morals that promotes loving behavior.

[Prabhaker]

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